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Father's comments messing up my mind

Started by jossam, May 03, 2016, 11:13:44 AM

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jossam

*TRIGGER WARNING RAPE "JOKES*

I really can't get myself to talk about this to others and not even to therapists because we all know how difficult it is to deal with comments and attitudes like that and talk about them.
Social conditioning whispers to my ear that if I'm a guy I should "man up" and forget about it, but everyone has feelings and I think it's difficult for everyone to get rid of shame and negative feelings when it comes to things of a sexual nature.

My dad is a good man and has always showered his kids with attention and care. However, he's also a sexist man and thinks his sexist ->-bleeped-<- is funny or acceptable. We were having dinner alone. We were watching the news and I don't remember exactly how and what we said but I said something like "well if some ISIS ->-bleeped-<- came here where live (unlikely, but anyway) I'd shoot them". Now, this is difficult to write down but it also is very difficult to think about for me. But I found the strength to open up here. He smiled and said "well if they found you're female they'd rape you anyway".
I was shocked and didn't say a word. If he was a stranger he'd already have a big kitchen knife to his neck. But he was my dad and I couldn't believe ehat he just said. It happened a few years ago, when ISIS started to become a threat so not too many years ago.
The fact he smiled and then laughed and treated it like a joke disgusted me. It wasn't a warning, it wasn't advice to be careful etc. It was a damn "joke" because he laughed looking at me.
Another day, alone again and after something on tv said "well I have my daughter's chest I can look at".
Again, silence, because the shock is strong when it comes from your own damn father!

His sexism and bad jokes/comments about women or female bodied individuals in general (but not about me lately, cause I swear I would yell at him if it happened again and tell someone) have increased for some reason. Last time he said something about my chest I punched the table and yelled at him and my mom was there and I said do not talk about this ever again and I hadn't talked to him for days after that. Getting older and losing his mental filters maybe? I don't know.

Why would an otherwise good man say something like this to his own child? It still hurts after years. It would still hurt a lot if I was a woman, but it hurts more because of the misgendering/dysphoria issue. But even if I was a woman it'd still hurt like hell. One part of me says I am overreacting and that I should man up, the other part of me comforts me and says it is understandable to feel like that.

It's just that after comments like this I'd never look at him the same way again. My instincts say I am not overreacting because it is never acceptable for a father to say certain things about his own kids. Ever. I come from a country and culture where it is normal to see family members naked and where compared to America people are a bit less prudish about nakedness and about parents and kids. Still, I feel like there is no cultural justification here, it's too much and it crosses the line.

How does it make me feel? Everytime I think about this stuff I get anxiety attacks and feel extremely bad and ashamed of myself.

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VivianB

One thing I can say that real men never say sexist things about women. It is perfectly fine to be mad at your father's comments. No man should ever mistreat women, you are more of a man than your father is for standing up for women.
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jossam

Quote from: VivianB on May 03, 2016, 11:50:02 AM
One thing I can say that real men never say sexist things about women. It is perfectly fine to be mad at your father's comments. No man should ever mistreat women, you are more of a man than your father is for standing up for women.
Reading this made my heart fill up with joy :) thank you. I feel like those men who feel this need to mistreat women or "put them back in their place" as some say have serious issues with their own masculinity and need to affirm it to themselves by making horrible comments. I feel like if you are confident about your masculinity you don't feel the need to bash others, especially women or female bodied people or whatever has something to do with what's considered female.
Your post made me think about a possible explanation....my father felt/feels threatened by my masculinity and it was his way to affirm himself.

And yes I will always stand up for women (trans and cis) and afab people, even if it means being called "white knight" or stupid feminist or having my male gender invalidated.
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Elis

My dad makes the odd wrong/unjust comments and 'jokes'; not as bad as your father seems to be. You have every right to be mad at him; there's no excuse. And it's especially creepy he comments on your chest. Him feeling threatened by your musculinuty seems like a likely explanation.  When it comes to my dad I've just learnt to nod along and ignore him. It's his choice to remain ignorant. I know the stuff he says isn't right. I'll always stand up for others whether cis or trans myself.
They/them pronouns preferred.



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HappyMoni

Jossam,
It sounds like your father is has a lot of anger. Many males find that they have no opportunity to see themselves in a light that is satisfying to their male ego. Gone are the times when they could defend the family from a mountain lion or some such thing. Now they push out their chest and defend us from Isis from the chair in the living room. It gets worse when they start getting older and see that their power is becoming even less. The fact that even his "daughter" is wanting to be "manly," well maybe he took a shot at you in an attempt to reestablish himself. This is my thought. I was never one of that type, so it is not from personal experience that I say this. I expect he loves you, but his need to say it outweighed the fact that it might hurt you at that particular time. Sorry he hurt you.
Moni
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

]
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ryokohimura

Maybe he thought you'd "understand", you knew him. I'm not making excuses for him. But if he's anything like the people I grew up around...he probably doesn't even understand how it's wrong or.... At this point I'm just tired of excusing our elders for these kinds of hurtful things. My grandmother and an uncle are two examples. While I'm fairly certain my mom's mom would be ok with me being trans (she was super ok with me being gay), she had a mean streak and her hurtful were always excused. My uncle is the worst in that I don't know how he'd react. Totally subscribes to the stereotypes and...I just hope he mistakes me for my wife.

TL;DR - not cool
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Laura_7

Here are a few resources that might help your dad understand what being transgender means:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,208438.msg1847638.html#msg1847638


I'd say don't take it personal.
They probably have seen how you react and maybe find it funny to stir someone up.
You might try to remain calm and show them its unacceptable what they said.
Like asking : if there were a few strangers present, what would they think of him now ?

Sometimes grownup people react like children.
Imo say something, but don't take it personal and try to react like an adult.

*hugs*
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CarlyMcx

You say your father is a good man.  Is there any history of Asperger Syndrome in your family?  Sometimes folks with Aspergers will make inappropriate jokes, due to a genuine lack of understanding of how what they say affects other people's feelings.
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jossam

I don't think he knows I'm trans. I certainly don't talk to him about it because he's pretty anti-LGBT. But as some of my friends say it's easy to see this "halo of masculinity" around me. The more progressive people kinda figure out themselves. I dress and cut my hair the way I want because I have always stood up for the right to do it. Because I might accept and handle being in the closet with some people amd never mention the word trans, but I could never handle having a feminine appearance (clothes, hair, etc.). I've been like this ever since I was a child. Still, the fact my parents have always let me dress like I wanted to doesn't mean they like it or accept it. Deep inside, they don't. My mother makes subtle comments, my dad usually minds his own business but then I hear his stupid comments.

Carly, I had a psychologist say I show autistic traits. I now know about autism spectrum disorders and totally find that it fits me. Every single thing. I am now seeing another therapist and I'll see if she says the same thing. I think I have autism, the high functioning or Aspergers kind. I will go in depth and tell my therapist a lot about me, so maybe she will find out. My mother shows signs like being emotionally detached from people most of the time and other things and seems similar to me sometimes but she's still different. She has no problems doing what I find really hard to do like calling therapist for appt, answering the phone, talking to random strangers if they talk to her and other things.
And my brother sounds weird too sometimes, but not as much as I do, but he does sound more similar to me how he needs time to isolate himself, avoids phone calls, avoids people.....but he still has normal social skills. I don't. I feel like my social skills are a disaster even though I learned to do things. I still don't have a social life and can't. When I tried to, in hs (when I had more mental issues) it was a disaster. Stormy friendships, a big mess. Me and the social world do not get along well. And then there's other aspie signs like sensory issues/sensory overload, obsessive unusual interests, wanting to talk non-stop about my interests.....
It's just that when you can still function diagnosis might be hard. But sometimes I feel like I can't really function in social situations. Me being trans does not help with the anxiety and stress and hating misgendering and all....but even when I am with friends I feel uncomfortable with I still act weird.

My father shows zero signs of Asperger's, so no, I'd never say he has it. He might not realize what he says is inappropriate but no, it's not Asperger's.
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Rebecca

If your father is potentially unaware of that you are trans there is every chance he's just trying to show off to "his little girl". Particularly if your masculine traits are showing it may result in a subconscious power struggle for being the alpha dog. The need to prove himself will grow stronger as you do. His comments will get worse and more frequent. This may explain his actions but it does not excuse them.

A real man does not need to belittle anyone to make themselves feel superior.

Might also be worth mentioning they are just as likely to rape him assuming you'd put up a better fight he'd be an easier mark. That might work like a slap in face as homosexual images and the thought of helplessness are forced into his mind.

You will either need to try and "fix" him or one day you'll be forced to throw down the gauntlet for the title of alpha.
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jossam

Quote from: Jerrica on May 04, 2016, 03:37:39 PM
If your father is potentially unaware of that you are trans there is every chance he's just trying to show off to "his little girl". Particularly if your masculine traits are showing it may result in a subconscious power struggle for being the alpha dog. The need to prove himself will grow stronger as you do. His comments will get worse and more frequent. This may explain his actions but it does not excuse them.

A real man does not need to belittle anyone to make themselves feel superior.

Might also be worth mentioning they are just as likely to rape him assuming you'd put up a better fight he'd be an easier mark. That might work like a slap in face as homosexual images and the thought of helplessness are forced into his mind.

You will either need to try and "fix" him or one day you'll be forced to throw down the gauntlet for the title of alpha.
My masculine traits do definitely show most of the time, cause I act and dress the way I want and these things come naturally to me (but I don't tell everyone I'm a trans guy so maybe some people just assume very masculine woman, others get it right though and assume trans man, like some friends did). So yeah, I do give off manly vibes, and cis men must feel them cause some react accordingly, and I'm pretty competitive and aggressive. I wouldn't call myself alpha guy, not macho, but I'm still masculine and people who know me and who know my trans status all tell me those things. So it really makes sense what you say, thanks. I do think it's subconscious, yeah, cause I've never told him I'm trans or "I'm really a guy" or anything like that. Some people are totally clueless and maybe even in denial, but most people do realize who I am.

All of this makes more sense now. Yeah, the homosexual images can be very bad for a straight man. The other day he wanted to post something on FB (something penis shaped that looked kinda funny, it was a mushroom) but I said don't do it, people will think you're a pervert and it's just awkward to post it on your profile. Or maybe they could think you are gay, I said (and I laughed to mock him cause I know he doesn't like being called gay). So he said he'd rather be considered a pervert than a homosexual. This is really messed up, of course, because being a pervert has negative connotations and could be even illegal depending on the actions, but it's his way to overcompensate when someone threatens his masculinity and heterosexuality, so he says "I'd rather be a pervert or be seen as one than be considered gay" to reinforce his identity. Only insecure people do it, though :) 

P.S: I'm really not interested in the alpha male game (although sometimes I do stuff with my male friends), but I'll never be forced to listen to derogatory comments and shut up. I'll fight and I do have my ways to make him feel bad and guilty about stuff. I know his weaknesses and know how to exploit them.
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Rebecca

Although you are not interested in the alpha male game it sounds to me like you already are an alpha by your willingness to stand and fight when necessary.

The sign of a true alpha instead of just a brawler.

And yeah guys are funny with the rather being perv than homosexual thing. Been there, had the programming, managed to break it all :) I'm only interested in females personally but don't give a flying duck if people want to call me gay.  Still funny looking at "his" memories where even my wife just playing would suggest I was gay and it was like instant rage.

Assuming you have no brothers he may also struggle with homophobia or homoeroticaphobia (I might have made it up but fear of being gay if he feels anything positive looking at or hugging a man) as he may have trouble reconciling the that he loves you as his daughter in a way that he could not allow himself to as his son.

For all they say all kids are loved the same they really aren't. Loved sure but in different ways. Sweet that they love but sad how some people limit their own pleasure from fear of what others "might" think.
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Laura_7

Quote from: Jerrica on May 05, 2016, 02:07:44 AM
Although you are not interested in the alpha male game it sounds to me like you already are an alpha by your willingness to stand and fight when necessary.

The sign of a true alpha instead of just a brawler.


Standing up for legitimate rights imo has nothing to do with alpha or whatever.

It can also be done in a cooperative way without having to play a game of being better or whatever.

Imo if its explained to people they may understand. And often people already know its not decent to say certain things.


hugs
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Rebecca

The alpha aspect is all about proving ones worth to others.

My comment merely stated that I considered Jossam's worth to have already been proven by standing up for what is right. Hence "true alpha". A rather significant compliment which lines up nicely with his aspirations of being a good man but not an overly aggressive one.

If you wish you could use an alternative translation of "you are a better man than he is" but I felt that would have been too cheesey and somewhat lacking in sincerity given the sentiment I was trying to share.

If I have led you to any other interpretation I apologise for any confusion caused.

Games I would say are just another means of discussion where subtle points are made to contribute to a later talk (ie I'm trans). If such activity can help her father think outside of his comfort zone whilst chipping away at his negativity then it may indeed be of great help.

Cooperation is of course possible and lovely if it can happen.

But.... given the overtly inappropriate sexual references and casual suggestion of the rape of his child by terrorists I would go out on a limb and suggest he may not be the most enlightened individual although naturally I cannot judge someone I haven't met too harshly.

Win, lose or draw (or cooperatively) communication will be key and all options should be considered both fair and foul.
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jossam

He's a good and caring father, but also very ignorant and hostile when it comes to LGBT people. I just can't see myself coming out to him. My mom once said something in the car about my male brain and he got super irritated and serious and said he doesn't want to hear things like this.

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Rebecca

I am glad to hear he is a good Dad you are lucky in that for sure. Just hope he is eventually able see what is right there in front of him.

He will mourn the loss of his daughter (which may fuel his ignorance/denial) but hopefully he will live long enough to learn to love his son and see him grow strong and happy with pride.
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Tristyn

Jossam, how old are you? If your at least 18, why don't you move out? I'm stuck with my pops cause he is my only real source of financial stability besides SSI.
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jossam

Quote from: King Phoenix on May 06, 2016, 04:41:08 PM
Jossam, how old are you? If your at least 18, why don't you move out? I'm stuck with my pops cause he is my only real source of financial stability besides SSI.
I can't, because I'm still going to college, and can't be financially independent now. Very few jobs opportunities here and without a college degree that allows me to work somewhere decent I wouldn't get paid enough to be fully independent. I also have mental issues right now that I need to fight (or at least learn to live with them without them causing too much distress) so I am also seeing a therapist that hopefully will help me be more functioning.

I feel terribly scared of the future.
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Tristyn

Quote from: jossam on May 07, 2016, 08:20:49 PM
I can't, because I'm still going to college, and can't be financially independent now. Very few jobs opportunities here and without a college degree that allows me to work somewhere decent I wouldn't get paid enough to be fully independent. I also have mental issues right now that I need to fight (or at least learn to live with them without them causing too much distress) so I am also seeing a therapist that hopefully will help me be more functioning.

I feel terribly scared of the future.

I can't judge you, jossam. I am in your shoes right now. I was only curious as to why you were still living with a man, even though he is your father, who persistently disses you that way. My father is similar, but he is far more passive-aggressive in my opinion. Your dad reminds me more of my brother in his younger days.

My brother was so sexist that I thought he was going to marry another man. I was so shocked when I heard that he married a woman. Yes, he was that sexist. It got to a point where I felt suicidal being around him. I mean, like how you love your dad and think he is a good man, that is how I feel about my brother. He doesn't seem that way now though.

Anyways, I hope you will reach a point in your life soon where you can become independent and get the heck out of there. You don't need that right now. You need support, respect and acceptance.
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jossam

Thank you King :)

Sometimes I wonder why my dad married a woman too. I think sexist men only see women as sexual objects. It's sad. I used to have sexist thoughts too now I am a hardcore feminist lol.
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