Mood and Estrogen

[JenniferLopezgomez]

After a lifetime of suffering with depression, E patches have made a world of difference. It's honestly like night and day, especially now that (I think) we have the dosage dialed in. My doc has started me on P just recently (6 weeks ago), and I'm guessing it's the non-bioidentical version. I haven't noticed any negative mood issues so far with it, but after reading this I'm going to be looking into the costs of switching over to the micronized version, see if I can afford it. Thank you.

Good honey I feel good you are looking further into this. Actually, I feel that KayXo has even better knowledge about this than I do.

But the info is out there. There have been some studies done in the last 10 to 12 years or so. Sometimes, some doctors who have been practicing medicine for a long time mean well but they simply haven't kept up with more recent developments such as the growing body of evidence that bio-identical forms of various HRT hormones carry a lot less risk of a bunch of serious side effects both physical and emotional/psychological.

For me, physical safety is very important so for example I will never take Premarin as my form of estrogen even if a doctor were to prescribe that for me MY choice would be NO -- sure Premarin was quite standard 20 years ago but we've learned a lot in transgender medicine since then so we should be SAFER.

For me, the emotional and psychological issues are critical. I sure find that my mood is much better now that I've been able to afford since January to be back on progesterone -- in bioidentical form for my best mental and physical health. I've been in various countries since January been treated great on international travel at all times on my female gender USA passport part of the time using Prometrium and part of the time using Micronized Progesterone depending on which country I am in. In most countries I've been in customs regulations permits me to enter with a small personal use quantity of my HRT hormones = I've never had any problems with this issue on international travel recently.

[Laura_7]

I am new to the site so I might have post a subject in the wrong place So I will try here I am under a doctor and I take estradiol and I am doing great with it so far But I for got to ask the doctor last week how long tell my "junk" starts to shrink the faster the better as far as a feel But I do know it takes time just like it did with my breast can anyone give me so feed back on my question thks

Well imo it should not only be shrinkage.
The first effects people usually feel are psychological.
Many people have a feeling of relief.

Its possible libido recedes for a few months, and comes back later, in a more "feminine" way, if estrogen levels are high enough.
Its possible it takes longer for an o to achieve but they are longer and may be spread all over the body.
Quite a few people use toys like magic wands and see it as energy that can be shared in a loving way.
Many people refer also to it as a big clit. It may help with dysphoria.
What time it takes depends dosage, and how people react.
Well its a process, I'd say try to enjoy the steps there.


hugs

[brandyh08505]

Thank you I need to hear this information  you put a smile of happiness on my face I am so glad I switch to having a doctor help me with this transition hugs back to you

[KayXo]

Nursing mothers have their bodies flooded with progesterone while pregnant and/or lactating it is nature's true hormone for wonderful feminine bliss.

Nursing mothers have very low levels of estrogen and progesterone but high levels of prolactin. Progesterone is high during pregnancy before nursing occurs.

Progesterone is well-known medically to frequently induce mild euphoria and I absolutely concur with this. Wow!

Due to its metabolite allopregnanolone. I love it!

It makes me kinda sleepy and I frequently have to sleep for a bit (or overnight) after I take it.

Due to its metabolite allopregnanolone.

I always take a bio-identical form of it that varies by country, normally either Prometrium or Micronized Progesterone. These have virtually no negative side effects BUT be sure to have tests and ask your doctor about especially your liver condition if you are or want to take Progesterone.

Gynecol Endocrinol. 1993 Jun;7(2):111-4.
Liver metabolism during treatment with estradiol and natural progesterone.

"Levels of lipoprotein A and liver enzymes did not change. It is concluded that micronized natural progesterone is an attractive means of progesterone supplementation in postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy without any liver-related side-effects."

I have only read reports of liver problems with progesterone at VERY high doses orally in pregnant women during their third trimester.

[brandyh08505]

Talked to my doctor Monday about that she only has me on estradiol and not any other blockers or any other stuff like  progesterone She said no we will keep me just on estradiol for now as wel as the aspirin and the blood pres med just to make sure we don't have any problems She said good things take time and for me to be patient she check my breast and the has been some new growth in size

[KayXo]

The only thing I don't understand is the aspirin as estrogen is a vasodilator (and reduces cardiovascular risk, like Aspirin) and bio-identical estrogen has very little effect on clotting, is negligible, when taken non-orally. It's important to ask why doctor insists on aspirin and the studies she is basing herself on. Aspirin is not a candy, it can have side-effects and is not worth the risk if not necessary. I would just discuss this with doctor to get more info on this. I'm afraid she may be confusing bio-identical estrogen for Premarin or ethinyl estradiol in birth control pills. Not the same thing.

[brandyh08505]

Thank you I will check with her I do know that she told me to cut the aspirin it to every other day but again I will ask her it never hurts to double check with the doctor I also take the estradiol by pill I am The one that made the choice to take the  estradiol under my tough I was told a few months ago that taking it under the tough  helps your liver Thanks again for helping me

[April_TO]

I think your comment below is not only baseless but can also cause undue anxiety from people who are taking them and getting good results from them. Insinuating that my endocrinologist and my family doctor are in connivance to kill me is not only distasteful but utterly unnecessary. I was on Spiro for about a year and almost had a total kidney shutdown. Meanwhile, I experienced tremendous results from CPA compared to progesterone and spiro combined. Can you explain my results then???

All medications have side effects even your regular OTC pain reliever. It is all about management and working with your health professional.

I am sick and tired of demonizing androcur as an alternative AA. If you take it in the lowest possible dose, the impacts of depression and hepatoxicity is almost diminished and that is backed by numerous blood test I have done instead of hearsay. My prolactin level is also on a normal range.

I take bio-identical estradiol valerate, bioidentical prometrium or micronized progesterone depending on what country I am travelling in, and spiro. Great powerful combination.

I feel that doctors who prescribe androcur, provera, premarin, or other synthetic non-bio-identitical hormones for their trans female clients are not only doing their clients a grave disservice, they are putting their clients at significant health risk from clinically-proven dangerous side effects. This info is readily available. This is 2016 after all, not 1996. In this thread some other posters have pointed out some of the dangerous side effects of androcur.

[JenniferLopezgomez]

I think your comment below is not only baseless but can also cause undue anxiety from people who are taking them and getting good results from them. Insinuating that my endocrinologist and my family doctor are in connivance to kill me is not only distasteful but utterly unnecessary. I was on Spiro for about a year and almost had a total kidney shutdown. Meanwhile, I experienced tremendous results from CPA compared to progesterone and spiro combined. Can you explain my results then???

All medications have side effects even your regular OTC pain reliever. It is all about management and working with your health professional.

I am sick and tired of demonizing androcur as an alternative AA. If you take it in the lowest possible dose, the impacts of depression and hepatoxicity is almost diminished and that is backed by numerous blood test I have done instead of hearsay. My prolactin level is also on a normal range.

Glad to hear you are getting good results with your meds regimen. It is true that doctors and other medical professionals can have varied opinions. As for ME, my med regimen works super well for me, my levels have always stayed in good ranges since I started on medical HRT. I will never take Androcur, for myself, even if a doctor were to prescribe it for me. This is due to a lot of info about it that concerns me a lot. But, other people can ask their doctor about it, or read up on some medical studies, talk to knowledgeable people, and so on.

One thing I have observed is that my MOOD is consistently happier when I have been able to afford financially to include a bio-identical progesterone in my HRT meds, either Prometrium or micronized progesterone depending on which country I am in. This noticeably affects my happiness for the better. Since January of this year 2016 I've been able to afford this in my HRT meds again so I feel super happy about this although it for sure on the expensive side. It might not be for everyone though so people should ask their doctor. It costs me more for P than for my spiro and estradiol valerate combined. But wow for me I feel it super well worth it.

I am not sure what to attribute my great skin quality to. I'm in my 50s and I literally have the legs and arms and thighs and upper chest skin quality of a girl about 25 to 27. I rarely use skin cream although I probably should. I consider myself very fortunate to have this HRT result. I would expect this is probably due to progesterone and estrogen, but I wonder if it is more due to the estrogen, or more due to the progesterone, or maybe half and half ?

[JenniferLopezgomez]

Nursing mothers have very low levels of estrogen and progesterone but high levels of prolactin. Progesterone is high during pregnancy before nursing occurs.

Due to its metabolite allopregnanolone. I love it!

Due to its metabolite allopregnanolone.


Gynecol Endocrinol. 1993 Jun;7(2):111-4.
Liver metabolism during treatment with estradiol and natural progesterone.

"Levels of lipoprotein A and liver enzymes did not change. It is concluded that micronized natural progesterone is an attractive means of progesterone supplementation in postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy without any liver-related side-effects."

I have only read reports of liver problems with progesterone at VERY high doses orally in pregnant women during their third trimester.

Thanks so much Kayxo for your insight and expertise. For sure you have more knowledge and expertise than I do in these subject areas. 

I would like to give you a +1 on reputation but I have to learn how to do this...so please bear with me. 

[JenniferLopezgomez]

I think your comment below is not only baseless but can also cause undue anxiety from people who are taking them and getting good results from them. Insinuating that my endocrinologist and my family doctor are in connivance to kill me is not only distasteful but utterly unnecessary. I was on Spiro for about a year and almost had a total kidney shutdown. Meanwhile, I experienced tremendous results from CPA compared to progesterone and spiro combined. Can you explain my results then???

All medications have side effects even your regular OTC pain reliever. It is all about management and working with your health professional.

I am sick and tired of demonizing androcur as an alternative AA. If you take it in the lowest possible dose, the impacts of depression and hepatoxicity is almost diminished and that is backed by numerous blood test I have done instead of hearsay. My prolactin level is also on a normal range.

Hi again -- by the way you look great!

The thing is, of course I am not the world's expert on Androcur and I've never used it myself. And I'm not a doctor and I presume you aren't either. But advising others when there is a factual proven basis to exercise is entirely reasonable to do. KayXo is more qualified than I am to cite for you certain specific medical studies that back up what I stated, so in my next post I will re-quote what KayXo wrote about clinical studies involving Androcur.

This is not to be mean or upset people, but to provide people with info about possible or likely significant negative side effects that many people have suffered from Androcur. Even if you personally have had great results with Androcur, clinical studies that indicate statistically valid dangers from Androcur should MORALLY get more publicity even if this might upset some people because clinical studies are medically valid information and might save some lives and/or improve more trans people's medical conditions. For me to make this contribution is a moral good of helping others. But in the end only you and your doctor can determine what is optimal for you. It is fine if you and your doctor are satisfied with your results using Androcur.

[JenniferLopezgomez]

As a continuation of my immediately proceeding thread which one can read to gain context, here I reproduce what KayXo, who has much more expertise than I do in these subject areas, said earlier in this thread.

People can have many different results on medical HRT. I feel it is valid and moral to help others by giving more publicity to helpful information which is based on statistically valid clinical studies. Thanks !

Cyproterone acetate can cause depression in some people and is usually avoided in people with prior depressive symptoms. Estrogen, on the other hand, is known to improve mood. Too little T or E in the body can also cause depression.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2012 Dec;97(12):4422-8.

"Of the antiandrogens studied, only cyproterone acetate was significantly associated with depression"

"Cyproterone acetate use is statistically more likely to cause depression than the other antiandrogen types used in this study. These results are consistent with previous studies using cyproterone acetate to treat hirsutism (11–13). It is, however, the first time this has been reported in transwomen. The incidence of depression was much lower in those using GnRH analogs, which is consistent with the findings of Dittrich et al. in 2005 (14), who found that depression was not a significant problem in transwomen treated with GnRH analogs."

European Journal of Endocrinology (2011) 164 635–642

"Depressive mood changes have been reported in cyproterone acetate use"

Basson RJ. Towards optimal hormonal treatment of male to female gender identity disorder. J Sex Reprod Med 2001;1:45–51.

"a high incidence of depression with its associated increased risk of suicide, for which persons with GID are already at increased risk, is reported by Asscheman et al (7) who routinely use CPA."

Metabolism. 1989 Sep;38(9):869-73.

« Combined treatment with estrogen and cyproterone acetate in 303 male-to-female transsexuals was associated with (...)depressive mood changes (15-fold)"

Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1979 Jul;91(3):545-52.

« One daily dose of either * cyproterone acetate (CA) was administered to 2 groups of 4 fertile men for 6 months."

"Three subjects who began the study were withdrawn because of depressive mood changes (2) and weakness combined with dizziness (1)."

[KayXo]

I think your comment below is not only baseless but can also cause undue anxiety from people who are taking them and getting good results from them. Insinuating that my endocrinologist and my family doctor are in connivance to kill me is not only distasteful but utterly unnecessary. I was on Spiro for about a year and almost had a total kidney shutdown. Meanwhile, I experienced tremendous results from CPA compared to progesterone and spiro combined. Can you explain my results then???

All medications have side effects even your regular OTC pain reliever. It is all about management and working with your health professional.

I am sick and tired of demonizing androcur as an alternative AA.

It's an opinion based on all I've read. Anyone has the right to disagree. I personally would not have taken it had I known what I know now. To each their own.

If you take it in the lowest possible dose, the impacts of depression and hepatoxicity is almost diminished

Hepatoxocity, I fully agree. Depression, not so much as I've come across some taking a very low dose and still experience depression but yes, it can help some. Meningiomas are more likely with higher doses and prolonged use. Prolactinoma, I'm not so sure. Clotting, the effect appears to be small and as far as adrenal effects, some studies show no issues, others do. Overall though, I believe there are safer alternatives.

and that is backed by numerous blood test I have done instead of hearsay. My prolactin level is also on a normal range.

Glad you're doing well on it, so far BUT I think it's important for people to know everything there is to know before taking something. Better to be informed than be ignorant.

[April_TO]

Education is key but discounting it and judging it without even trying it is no bueno. I had my reservations when I first took CPA because of what was said about it. Now, looking back I should have never listened. Spiro on the other hand was glorified and was put on pedestal - oh it is safe, it's better than CPA blah blah..and my kidney almost had a complete shut down. Be fair when you are sharing your information, you could be putting someone in danger because you are conditioning them to believe that what you are suggesting is true.

This is not bashing someone's opinion. But for someone to judge that it is "immoral" for a medical professional to prescribe CPA is not only ridiculous but an overkill. If your regimen is working for you good, demonizing my regimen because it is different from yours - just stop doing that.

Be fair when you are sharing your opinions - put all the negative side effects of all meds in here and let the public to decide which poison is right for them.

[JenniferLopezgomez]

April_TO it is my understanding that the NHS (National Health Service) of the UK (Great Britain) has switched from typically using spiro for its patients (which is most of my British trans female friends since NHS is free for British citizens and most of my British trans female friends cannot afford to pay for a private gender clinic) to using a different anti-androgen for most of its patients. For sure it isn't Androcur but it isn't spiro anymore either. I don't recall off the top of my head what the preferred new anti-androgen of NHS is because this doesn't directly affect me personally, however I could research and get this information for you if you like. I'm a member of various British trans groups and I have plenty of British trans female friends from real life and on-line who are currently under NHS care for medical HRT transition so for sure I can get this info if you have interest. The standard anti-androgen in the USA is still spiro, and this is the case in much of the world. Personally I will stick with spiro as years of taking spiro has done me very well in my transition to JENNIFER. 

[byanyothername]

It's Lupron :-)


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[JenniferLopezgomez]

It's Lupron :-)


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Thanks much! xx

[KayXo]

Education is key but discounting it and judging it without even trying it is no bueno.

I tried it and wish I never did.

I had my reservations when I first took CPA because of what was said about it. Now, looking back I should have never listened. Spiro on the other hand was glorified and was put on pedestal - oh it is safe, it's better than CPA blah blah..and my kidney almost had a complete shut down.

I prefer personally Spiro to CPA but even better, prefer bicalutamide or LhRh agonists and ideal would be estradiol alone, in injections. That's just my opinion based on my experience and scientific readings. I'm not a doctor though so take all what I say with a grain of salt, do your own research and discuss with health professionals.

Be fair when you are sharing your information, you could be putting someone in danger because you are conditioning them to believe that what you are suggesting is true.

I always present studies, evidence in addition to my arguments but in the end, it's up to their DOCTOR to decide together with the patient. I believe I am fair.

[Richenda]

Education is key but discounting it and judging it without even trying it is no bueno. I had my reservations when I first took CPA because of what was said about it. Now, looking back I should have never listened. Spiro on the other hand was glorified and was put on pedestal - oh it is safe, it's better than CPA blah blah..and my kidney almost had a complete shut down. Be fair when you are sharing your information, you could be putting someone in danger because you are conditioning them to believe that what you are suggesting is true.

This is not bashing someone's opinion. But for someone to judge that it is "immoral" for a medical professional to prescribe CPA is not only ridiculous but an overkill. If your regimen is working for you good, demonizing my regimen because it is different from yours - just stop doing that.

Be fair when you are sharing your opinions - put all the negative side effects of all meds in here and let the public to decide which poison is right for them.

What a great post April and so true. It's really really important on a site like this that people don't become cheerleaders for one drug over another just because it worked for them. Links to scientific studies on one side can be compared with ones which are not so positive and people can then build up a good picture. Most important of all is that we are complex and everyone's body reacts differently. So just because something is right for one person does not mean it is for someone else. I would always now recommend seeing a physician and getting tested. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[Richenda]

I always present studies, evidence in addition to my arguments but in the end ... I believe I am fair.

Erm, sorry Kay but I'm taking issue with you there. You have been this forum's biggest champion of bicalutamide, and on other forums, but there are serious side effects that have not been reported or linked by you and I feel duty bound to mention them so people are properly informed and kept safe. See my new thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,210339.0.html
It's not a fantastically safe drug at all.
http://medlibrary.org/lib/rx/meds/casodex-2/page/2/#williamsonbk1285098002847
http://www.macmillan.org.uk/cancerinformation/cancertreatment/treatmenttypes/hormonaltherapies/individualhormonaltherapies/bicalutamide.aspx

I also honestly wish I hadn't believed you about intra-muscular being so great and risk free. I had an awful week on it compared to my normal 3x a day sublingual method.

I'm just sharing that honestly.