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isn't evolution in it self proof of a higher consciousness

Started by stephaniec, June 09, 2016, 01:55:05 PM

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stephaniec

I would think without a higher consciousness it would seem far more realistic if life exists to just achieve the level of excessive plant growth and dinosaur habitation and let it go at that.Without a higher consciousness there is no need to go further than existing , eating , sleeping and procreating to sustain life as an end in itself.
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Cindi Jones

Bio diversity tends to produce at least some of each species who will survive a plague, a cold season, or a predator. Those who survive will pass on those traits. Certainly, critical thinking is something that would be favored as the idiots are weaned from the population. This is the simplest explanation and requires no divine hand for elucidation.
Author of Squirrel Cage
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stephaniec

well the thing is we don't need to debate the existence of God or existence in and of itself to find food and shelter.
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sleepsinallday

I don't know if this will help, but here's my understanding of the logic of evolutionary theory:

Evolution is not goal-oriented. Every species that existed prior to the arrival of humans came about by accident. Humans themselves came about by accident. I know it isn't a satisfactory answer to say that we just so happened to develop brains capable of processing complex social ideas, but that's really what happened. Around the time of the emergence of our species, a number of hominids existed that were capable of understanding social queues and each had their own primitive style of habitation that either led to their survival or their extinction. These species were more apt to survive if they could organize, form languages to communicate ideas, and construct ideas that aided their survival. Survival is competition: survival of the fittest. If you have a brain capable of helping you adapt to new situations through communication, you were more fit to survive... With this competition between large-brained hominids, those species that were most capable of controlling their capabilities as social actors were those that survived. In other words, the evolution that got us to this point was not goal-oriented, but our development reached a point where we were able to circumvent evolution and cooperate to achieve goal-oriented tasks. All social constructs like "god" or "politics" or even "gender" have all been created out of our need to organize based on ideas.

For example, a social construction of "farmer" as a category of humans makes it easier to recognize the farmer's purpose and intentions. Everyone knows that a farmer is someone who farms and that without farmers, we would all starve. This gives the idea of the farmer value to a society. Without this recognition of "farmer status," our species would never have been able to expand beyond hunters and gatherers. More importantly, recognizing that someone is not a farmer allows us to denote a separate status to them, maybe "philosopher" or "merchant." And perhaps most important is the fact that without developing a higher sense of self through the concept of status, we would be incapable of comprehending a "god." From here, we witness the end of natural evolution and the rise of social evolution. Societies united by a god or a pantheon of gods were more likely to be socially unified and, therefore, more organized. (And, as you might guess, more organized societies have more productive yields and are more capable of conquering or destroying less organized societies). Social evolution is a process that is ongoing; the current explanation for the collapse of the Soviet Union is the notion that in today's world, "Capitalist" societies are more survivable than "Communist" societies. The transition from Communism to Liberal Democracy represents modern social evolution towards more efficient, more adaptable forms of government. So at times, more theological societies have been more survivable than secular ones, but arguably today, societies with religious freedoms are more survivable.

The reason there are no 'intermediate' species between animals that operate on instinct and animals that operate consciously (as we do) is because we eradicated them all. A core functional component of evolutionary theory is the assumption that we, as social actors, would have recognized other intelligent species as threats to our survival (as nearly all species are in competition with us for survival). The first acts of humankind were to wipe out as many threats to our survival as possible. As humans spread across the globe, we caused the extinctions of millions of species all in an attempt  secure ourselves from threats to our survival.

Evolutionary theory is designed to explain the existence of intelligent species, but it offers no explanation of how life began. I would argue that the best place to argue for the existence of a higher consciousness is in life's beginning, not its advancement.
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stephaniec

the thing is that consciousness went from the amoeba to Einstein. Why did this happen , why do we need that level of conscious thought, there is a definite progression from atoms bouncing around and in some sense being aware of where the electron is to an Einstein who's only purpose in a sense is to advance human knowledge towards greater consciousness , why , you can't put a plate of food on the table which was a creation of more advanced consciousness with the knowledge of the fundamental nature of the atom. Whats the point if it not to evolve and progress to towards an even greater consciousness which in turn the ultimate consciousness would be God.
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Cindi Jones

To be blunt, WE developed this ability to think and to reason to kill our competitors. The ability to seek out those competitors and kill them gave us the edge. We are now finding ourselves in a predicament. We have learned to kill and learned to think better of it.
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Deborah

Read "On the Origin of Species."  That book explains it in detail.  The point is survival, nothing more and nothing less.


Sapere Aude
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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sleepsinallday

Evolution is not purposeful. If you try to analyze it in any sense of "X" happens so that "Y" can happen, you're going to have some incongruity with what actually exists in nature. Nothing happens on purpose; to assume that there is a lifeform with higher intelligence than us humans may be logical, but if there is no evidence of its existence, it does not exist. Hypothetically, any kind of life specialized for any purpose could exist under the right conditions. That doesn't necessarily mean that life does exist even if those conditions offer an abundance of opportunities. The evolution of intelligent life isn't some inevitability. It's merely a possible outcome among trillions of trillions of other outcomes.

There is no point to our existence except what points we make for ourselves. All values are socially constructed, not natural truths. If our purpose is to understand god or become godlike, that is a philosophical debate that runs contrary to the theory of evolution.

Imo, any 'purpose' that humankind has should be grounded in social cohesion and universal altruism. If that were to happen through some kind of deistic ascension, I'd be all for that...but I believe there are other ways.
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Colleen M

Quote from: stephaniec on June 09, 2016, 05:24:59 PM
you can't put a plate of food on the table which was a creation of more advanced consciousness with the knowledge of the fundamental nature of the atom.

Take a good, hard look at the Bosch-Haber process.  It proves pretty conclusively that a single example of advanced consciousness at work for the nitrogenation of fertilizer is directly responsible for something like half the planet eating dinner each and every day purely because we understand the atom well enough to manipulate it through chemistry.  I'd suggest that's fairly necessary.  Then there's medicine as a field, which has been rather handy as well.  The soft, weak, naked, slow ape has leveraged his advantages of intelligence, opposable thumbs, and communication quite spectacularly.  Certainly better than whales leveraged extreme size or cheetahs leveraged speed.  But then, somebody has to be the best at anything, right?

And the later careers of Bosch and Haber also prove pretty conclusively they weren't here just to advance the human condition.  Their joint work is more necessary to human life than Einstein's entire body of work, yet one basically invented poison gas in WWI, and the other ran I. G. Farben in WWII.  This is not indicative of a particularly wise and kind grand plan. 
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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stephaniec

yes , but the life on the planet even with the misuse of knowledge advances which means from the beginning where only atoms existed the creation of consciousness that is ever probing and advancing towards the goal of understanding. It's evolving forward to achieve ultimate understanding . This consciousness was there at the beginning and is creating a bridge to fullfill total consciousness and understanding which would approach the ultimate consciousness of God. God is the Alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end. Consciousness builds what is needed to achieve ultimate understanding starting from atoms to the human mind and possibly beyond.
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Colleen M

Consciousness builds toward dinner.  We're not big enough, fast enough, tough enough, or naturally armed enough to take any other approach.  Some early genius discovered how to tame fire, and that allowed us to extract nutrients from our food more efficiently.  Then some primitive genius invented the bow, and our food supply increased.  Then another genius discovered beer and agriculture was born.  And so forth.  Ultimately we're smarter than our food because it's all we have going for us. 

Admittedly, our understanding of the universe increasingly leads to the inescapable conclusion that divine intervention is at best unnecessary, and that realization has very positive implications on individual and state violence, but it's not inevitable or constant progress. 
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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Deborah

The word you are seeking is gnosis.  That used to be a major religious movement from around 2000 years ago until is was virtually eradicated by the Church during the Albigensian Crusade in the early 13th century.  I still have some spiritual belief left that is highly gnostic in character.

If there is any truth to it then very few, the pneumatics, will reach enlightenment and union with God.  The rest either are bound to the material with no spiritual awareness or mistake their various religions for spiritual truth.


Sapere Aude
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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stephaniec

Quote from: Colleen M on June 09, 2016, 08:36:54 PM
Consciousness builds toward dinner.  We're not big enough, fast enough, tough enough, or naturally armed enough to take any other approach.  Some early genius discovered how to tame fire, and that allowed us to extract nutrients from our food more efficiently.  Then some primitive genius invented the bow, and our food supply increased.  Then another genius discovered beer and agriculture was born.  And so forth.  Ultimately we're smarter than our food because it's all we have going for us. 

Admittedly, our understanding of the universe increasingly leads to the inescapable conclusion that divine intervention is at best unnecessary, and that realization has very positive implications on individual and state violence, but it's not inevitable or constant progress.
Lets just say that consciousness is completing itself. The fundamental laws of nature were formed when the big bang cooled and condensed from the incredible hot plasma state created by the explosion. From the fundamental laws what we know to exist evolved into the universe we have now. The same with consciousness it was there in the very beginning . It's what gave the scaffolding for the universe to become and we are the design of consciousness to basically become itself.
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Colleen M

Quote from: stephaniec on June 09, 2016, 09:05:09 PM
The same with consciousness it was there in the very beginning . It's what gave the scaffolding for the universe to become and we are the design of consciousness to basically become itself.

Ultimately, the only things we have suggesting a consciousness behind the universe are the stories a bunch of superstitious savages told themselves trying to understand where the sun went at night.  Some of them are great stories--Utnapishtim is so much better than the derivative you're familiar with it's not funny, with apologies to the original Ziusadra--but they're still man's first fumbling attempts to explain his world in terms he could grasp.  Our grasp is better now, and it's well past time to move on.  We know enough not to invent any more gods, and the ones we already created have been obsolete for generations. 

When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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stephaniec

you can say the fundamentals laws of nature which everyone agrees exist are a form of consciousness if not consciousness itself.
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Cindi Jones

Quote from: stephaniec on June 09, 2016, 09:05:09 PM
Lets just say that ...

As an engineer (some may say scientist), I learned long ago that the first effective step to a successful experiment (or to reason itself) is to make no assumptions at the outset. Every lab test in the world goes to exhaustive lengths to make sure that no assumptions are injected. This is part of the scientific method and how we produce theories (the things that most people call facts).

I get what you are trying to say though. It is hard for many to accept that entropy can create intelligence. It sounds counterintuitive. After all, how can rain drops create a lake? ;) Okay, that's a simplistic analogy but it is entropy at work to create a seemingly more cohesive object. So in that way, it works.

Right after the big bang, it is theorized that matter as we know it did not exist yet. There were no atoms. There were no protons, neutrons, or electrons. There was other stuff that had yet to create these things. Yet we can take this disorganized matter and describe with physics how entropy and natural forces actually worked in creating something more than what was.
Author of Squirrel Cage
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Colleen M

I suppose you could say it, but why would you?  If you want to say it and it makes you feel better to say it, own that reason.  But what possible evidence is there for electromagnetism being any part of sentience?
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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stephaniec

Rain drops randomly falling from the sky forming puddles and producing perfect images of what of the orbital of the most basic atom hydrogen looks like. Nature as a form of consciousness speaking to us. It took science 4.5 billion years to the point it could take the actual picture of what a hydrogen atom looks like , but all it really took was to look out a window into the street when it's raining or to listen to the words of the Buddha who lived well before the modern science method to describe the most fundamental  nature of all atoms which are the building blocks for nature and therefore consciousness.
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stephaniec

Quote from: Colleen M on June 09, 2016, 09:51:41 PM
I suppose you could say it, but why would you?  If you want to say it and it makes you feel better to say it, own that reason.  But what possible evidence is there for electromagnetism being any part of sentience?
what does a law do other than give knowing guidance
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Colleen M

Yeah.  Not buying the puddle thing.  Sometimes a circle is just a circle.  Although Buddha did a heck of a job for a guy who believed in eight elements, but he did miss on size by quite a bit. 

Malum prohibitum would be a good place to start disproving that laws are "knowing" by virtue of being laws.  Natural laws don't even have that excuse. 
When in doubt, ignore the moral judgments of anybody who engages in cannibalism.
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