Morality

[Cin]

I am a thiest and it's hard for me personally to separate morality and good and evil from God, I think atheists are good people too, and I have absolutely no problem with them whatsoever.

There may have been several similar threads before, I apologize. I like to keep an open mind and would like to know where the concept of good and evil comes from. I am having difficulty seeing things differently, any insight would be greatly appreciated. Is there a scientific reason, is it human nature? And at some level do you think the universe doesn't care about right and wrong?

I believe the most important thing in life is to be a good person and beliefs don't really matter.

[Colleen M]

I'd actually argue that true morality is incompatible with any of the religions built upon a dualist (heaven and hell are probably most familiar to western eyes) afterlife philosophy.  If somebody does the right thing because they anticipate posthumous reward, or avoids doing the wrong thing because they fear posthumous punishment, at no point is their decision ever based on actually doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing.  Their judgment is about obedience which may or may not be socially constructive, but ultimately it can never, ever be about pure morality as long as their eyes are fixed firmly on punishment/reward from somebody real or imagined.  It's also not exactly reassuring when the religious insist that the only thing keeping them from any number of crimes is their fear of mystical punishment.  Many atheists try to do the right thing because we know this is the only shot we've all got and we tend to value it more highly based on the understanding that this is not a practice life.  There have been some very spectacular exceptions, but most of them are better described as communist dictators. 

Morality fairly certainly predates religion.  It's varied a lot more than I'd like to admit over time, but there is a very consistent intent to treat your fellow human beings well.  A lot of the shortcomings tend to involve who qualifies as "your fellow human beings."  As a species we're very prone to tribalism any anything which exacerbates tribalism tends to dehumanize the other fellow and result in any number of atrocities.  The original definition of "good" rhymes pretty well with "us" in much the same way that "evil" rhymes with "them."  Sadly, we haven't really progressed as much on that axis as might have been desired.  Still, our origins as a cooperative, tribal ape show in our hardwired responses.  To that extent, it's certainly scientifically explicable.  The fine points are really more in the realm of philosophy.     

[Semira]

Is there a scientific reason, is it human nature? And at some level do you think the universe doesn't care about right and wrong?

I would classify myself as more agnostic than atheist, but I very much view the world through the eyes of science. While I don't believe in anything supernatural, I won't definitively say that it doesn't exist and would be open if someone were able to actually prove something.

As far as morality goes, Humans are a social species. We benefit greatly from cooperation. All of the technology we take advantage of today is the culmination of thousands of years of cooperation...with the right about of competition to serve as extra motivation. We work together to solve problems. We pass our knowledge down to the next generation so that they may continue our work. Cooperating with others allows us to achieve fantastic things, things that may have once been considered impossible.

Individuals that radically depart from the spirit of cooperation, such as murderers or thieves, bring an element of chaos that is harmful to society as a whole. Too much chaos inhibits productivity. So the "bad" people are brought to "justice" in order to keep order and society chugging along.

All of that sounds kind of rosy and of course there's plenty of bad involved. Humans, like all animals, are inherently selfish. With the exception of children, our natural instinct is to always favor ourselves over others. But, cooperating with other Humans is often far more beneficial to ourselves than is breeding chaos. A lone Human being is a fragile creature. Billions of Human beings can redefine the definition of impossible.

As far as the universe goes, Human beings are an infinitely tiny speck of nothing on some remote planet in the middle of a vast expanse of blackness. The universe went about its business before Humans existed and will continue to carry on long after the Human species becomes extinct.

[Stevie]

 I think that religious people that are good, are good not because of their religion, but they are good despite their religion.

[Cin]

I'd actually argue that true morality is incompatible with any of the religions built upon a dualist (heaven and hell are probably most familiar to western eyes) afterlife philosophy.  If somebody does the right thing because they anticipate posthumous reward, or avoids doing the wrong thing because they fear posthumous punishment, at no point is their decision ever based on actually doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing.  Their judgment is about obedience which may or may not be socially constructive, but ultimately it can never, ever be about pure morality as long as their eyes are fixed firmly on punishment/reward from somebody real or imagined.  It's also not exactly reassuring when the religious insist that the only thing keeping them from any number of crimes is their fear of mystical punishment.  Many atheists try to do the right thing because we know this is the only shot we've all got and we tend to value it more highly based on the understanding that this is not a practice life.  There have been some very spectacular exceptions, but most of them are better described as communist dictators. 

Morality fairly certainly predates religion.  It's varied a lot more than I'd like to admit over time, but there is a very consistent intent to treat your fellow human beings well.  A lot of the shortcomings tend to involve who qualifies as "your fellow human beings."  As a species we're very prone to tribalism any anything which exacerbates tribalism tends to dehumanize the other fellow and result in any number of atrocities.  The original definition of "good" rhymes pretty well with "us" in much the same way that "evil" rhymes with "them."  Sadly, we haven't really progressed as much on that axis as might have been desired.  Still, our origins as a cooperative, tribal ape show in our hardwired responses.  To that extent, it's certainly scientifically explicable.  The fine points are really more in the realm of philosophy.     

Thank you colleen.

I suppose I associate good and evil more with God than religion but I get what you're saying.

The way you describe atheists way of life sounds perfect to me, but it makes human beings "not special" almost like there's no difference between human beings and other species, and that makes me feel strange cause it just makes it seem like it's all biology and evolution.

That's kind of a grim way of looking at things from my perspective, but I'm still perfectly fine.

I can't seem to find the right word to describe how I feel, but it makes human beings look "normal" which for some reason makes me feel disappointed or something like that.

[Cin]

All of that sounds kind of rosy and of course there's plenty of bad involved. Humans, like all animals, are inherently selfish. With the exception of children, our natural instinct is to always favor ourselves over others. But, cooperating with other Humans is often far more beneficial to ourselves than is breeding chaos. A lone Human being is a fragile creature. Billions of Human beings can redefine the definition of impossible.

As far as the universe goes, Human beings are an infinitely tiny speck of nothing on some remote planet in the middle of a vast expanse of blackness. The universe went about its business before Humans existed and will continue to carry on long after the Human species becomes extinct.

Thank you for your reply, it was very eloquent.

The last part of your post I quoted because that's such a pragmatic way of looking at humanity, and by extension, yourself. Universe not caring bit gets to me fast, because part of me says why even bother if it's all for nothing.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I actually think it's pretty liberating to see the world that way and still find meaning and purpose in life.

It's either liberating or scary... Or both, I guess?

[Colleen M]

I almost forgot something important worth mentioning about morality and those of us who are godless.  The U.S. Department of Justice has demographic data on its prisoners.  Atheists are spectacularly under-represented in the American prison population, and the few of us behind bars are there generally for "white collar" or "victimless" crimes with virtually no atheists involved in violent crimes.  It's not a perfect record we have there, but it is pretty darned good.   

We weren't handed special on a silver platter and there's nothing about us which entitles us to special.  But that's not grim, that's the wonderful part.  Go out and be special on your own.  Help somebody else be special.  Earn it.  Take pride in earning it.  You're no more guilty from original sin than you are special from somebody else's achievements, but you can make your own fate and know that it's truly yours.  If that's not special, what is? 

Sure, the sun is going to consume the planet when it expires and this is probably the last solar system with this batch of stardust, and the bubble universe theory says existence as we know it could end at any time.  Admittedly, there's a supermassive black hole at the center of our tiny little galaxy and there's a decent chance the entire universe will eventually suffer an energy death.  You can look at those as grim reality.  I'd rather look at those as challenges.  What could be more special than solving those?  And we'll never solve them by lying to ourselves about the universe or our place in it.  But a century ago, they said the earth's population would exceed the planet's ability to feed.  They were right, actually.  So what did we do?  We changed the rules and hydrogenated fertilizer, thus feeding the planet.  We'll get past the next problems just as soon as we bust Einstein's speed limit and see what's out there.  We are the alpha predators at the end of three million years of evolution.  That's not what makes us special as a race; it's what gives us the chance to be special as individuals. 

There are going to be some mis-steps, and we can all come up with a decent list of those.  But at the end of the day we have a chance to try to be special as individuals purely on our own merit.  Why would anybody want it any other way?  It's not grim; it's perfect. 

       

[Cin]

Humanity seems to be going forward and evolving, but if there is no afterlife, that means your contributions don't really matter to anyone?

Do you feel strange that there is no superior being judging good and evil. Or even something like karma? If that's the case, then definition of good and bad becomes unclear?

[Tossu-sama]

I think telling right from wrong is just part of common sense that you learn over the years by interracting with others. It's not rocket science. Just think how you'd want to be treated and treat others the same way. I know that part's in the Bible as well but I don't think one needs religion to realize that.
Besides, human is a social species. We benefit if we get along with others of our kind and best way to get along with them is to treat them well.

The way you describe atheists way of life sounds perfect to me, but it makes human beings "not special" almost like there's no difference between human beings and other species, and that makes me feel strange cause it just makes it seem like it's all biology and evolution.

The way I see it, humans are not special. We are animals, primates, one of the big ape species. We have just evolved into this... mess we are today. Sure, we can talk and have all this nifty technology and whatnot but does it really count as being intelligent considering what we've done to this planet? I think not. As you can see, I don't appreciate humans as a species at all. I suppose I'm a bit misanthropic.

Humanity seems to be going forward and evolving, but if there is no afterlife, that means your contributions don't really matter to anyone?

There are future generations. We are at least trying to fix the mistakes we've done in order to make sure at least something of this world is preserved for the next generations. I'm sure our current efforts matter to them.

[RedLila]

how I feel, but it makes human beings look "normal" which for some reason makes me feel disappointed or something like that.

Pretty sure this right here is the root cause of all religion, people want to feel that they are special and "above" something else, be it other people or even just animals.

Lots of people really dont process the idea, that in the grand scheme of the universe they are fundamentally meaningless, very well.

[Cin]

Pretty sure this right here is the root cause of all religion, people want to feel that they are special and "above" something else, be it other people or even just animals.

Lots of people really dont process the idea, that in the grand scheme of the universe they are fundamentally meaningless, very well.

Aren't human beings the only creatures capable of believing in a higher power?

Humans also seem to care about the survival of other animals too, which I don't think I've seen in other animals

[Cin]

I think telling right from wrong is just part of common sense that you learn over the years by interracting with others. It's not rocket science.

There are future generations. We are at least trying to fix the mistakes we've done in order to make sure at least something of this world is preserved for the next generations. I'm sure our current efforts matter to them.

Good points, I can't disagree with anything you're saying, but I think there must be more to good and evil than just good is advantageous and bad isn't. Id like to think so.

[Colleen M]

Humanity seems to be going forward and evolving, but if there is no afterlife, that means your contributions don't really matter to anyone?

Do you feel strange that there is no superior being judging good and evil. Or even something like karma? If that's the case, then definition of good and bad becomes unclear?

With the understanding that several of us are tag-teaming you:

If an afterlife is required to validate this life, does that mean an after-afterlife is required to validate the afterlife?  And which afterlife should we be preparing for?  One with Odin and Valhalla before Ragnarok?  Or do we need the coins to pay Charon?  If we can't even reliably figure out which afterlife to prepare for, how can an unknowable afterlife be considered the yardstick for a life well lived?  And what's wrong with a life well lived for its own sake?  You're actually displaying one of the truly horrifying things afflicting people with religion here as it has made it harder for you to find value in your own existence for your own sake, which I find terrifying and frankly unforgivable (them, not you, so nothing personal ).

And I assure you that I find the idea of a superior being sitting in judgment to be rather odd, rather than the reverse.  I have heard the case for any number of divine beings, and none of those cases are particularly compelling in terms of existence.  As a general statement on moral standards, I find the polytheistic pantheons to at least have some deities who are more appealing than most of the monotheistic constructions, although obviously not universally.  Without getting into specifics which are outside our scope here, or framing it as an authoritative statement on all monotheistic groups, I can say that I find the monotheistic deities I am familiar with to be lacking the moral credibility to judge me even if they existed.  Several of them lack the moral authority to judge Stalin.

I'd also like to point out as far as morality being unclear without a divine reference, consider how unclear it can be made by a divine reference.  The "eye for an eye"/"turn the other cheek" contradiction in one major religion springs to mind.  I'm sure other disagreements just within any given single religious book can be produced as needed.     

As another thought, Youtube is full of dogs nursing lion cubs or whatnot.  Many social animals tend to be benevolent and cooperative as a default.

Ultimately, it's also worth asking if you're making decisions based on what you want and feel comfortable with, or on the reality we are faced with.  At several points it sounds like the former, but I don't want to read too much into that.                 

[RobynD]

As a non-atheist i find these discussions fascinating. "What is the basis for morality?" is an amazing and largely unanswerable question in my opinion. I really appreciate the atheists i know who ask these questions. One of the best answers i have heard that clicked with me is the societal consensus on a global and all inclusive basis. Sure you can take some societies and stand them up at a moment in time and say..."yeah that is immoral, I know it when i see it "but when taken as a mean measurement, you see a trend that is generally "moral" in a fairly consistent way on some fairly consistent things.

This idea also smacks the "depravity of man" folks fairly hard.

I wish i had taken more philosophy classes, cause i don't have a lot to offer on it but great discussion.

[Colleen M]

One of the best answers i have heard that clicked with me is the societal consensus on a global and all inclusive basis.

The "wisdom of the crowd" does a pretty good job guessing how many jelly beans are in the jar, so it's probably a reasonable place to start with morality.  Particularly as it really is almost certainly the best we have to work with. 

[Eevee]

I don't feel like typing the many paragraphs I have to say on this issue, and others have already covered so much of it, so I will instead plug a show that has a lot to say on this issue. Look up The Atheist Experience, which has a lot of episodes recorded on Youtube. They get this question from their callers all the time and I feel they do a great job of explaining it most of the time.

[Cin]

With the understanding that several of us are tag-teaming you:

If an afterlife is required to validate this life, does that mean an after-afterlife is required to validate the afterlife?  And which afterlife should we be preparing for?  One with Odin and Valhalla before Ragnarok?  Or do we need the coins to pay Charon?  If we can't even reliably figure out which afterlife to prepare for, how can an unknowable afterlife be considered the yardstick for a life well lived?  And what's wrong with a life well lived for its own sake?  You're actually displaying one of the truly horrifying things afflicting people with religion here as it has made it harder for you to find value in your own existence for your own sake, which I find terrifying and frankly unforgivable (them, not you, so nothing personal ).

And I assure you that I find the idea of a superior being sitting in judgment to be rather odd, rather than the reverse.  I have heard the case for any number of divine beings, and none of those cases are particularly compelling in terms of existence.  As a general statement on moral standards, I find the polytheistic pantheons to at least have some deities who are more appealing than most of the monotheistic constructions, although obviously not universally.  Without getting into specifics which are outside our scope here, or framing it as an authoritative statement on all monotheistic groups, I can say that I find the monotheistic deities I am familiar with to be lacking the moral credibility to judge me even if they existed.  Several of them lack the moral authority to judge Stalin.

I'd also like to point out as far as morality being unclear without a divine reference, consider how unclear it can be made by a divine reference.  The "eye for an eye"/"turn the other cheek" contradiction in one major religion springs to mind.  I'm sure other disagreements just within any given single religious book can be produced as needed.     

As another thought, Youtube is full of dogs nursing lion cubs or whatnot.  Many social animals tend to be benevolent and cooperative as a default.

Ultimately, it's also worth asking if you're making decisions based on what you want and feel comfortable with, or on the reality we are faced with.  At several points it sounds like the former, but I don't want to read too much into that.               

To be honest, I feel like I'm dealing with people who several times more knowledgeable than I.

I didn't think of there being so many versions of heaven, lol. It would be wrong to say my version is correct. I wasn't even thinking about other faiths until you pointed out, someone from a different faith could disagree with my version of heaven.

I've been conditioned one way, and it seems like a very brave way of looking at life. I can't speak for others, but what I hear from religion sounds wonderful. It's like every single human being that ever lived gets what's coming to them, no lives and dreams go in vain.

Do you study religion or faith as a hobby? Do you find it an interesting subject even as an outsider?

[Colleen M]

Personally, I can't say religion is really that interesting to me on its own merits.  Now, I do follow religious movements the way I follow movements like fascism or mercantilism or any other -ism to note how they influenced people and nations over time.  And I do recall a fair bit from when I discarded religion as that's not a decision to be made lightly, but I'm not making an effort to retain that knowledge as it's really quite useless.  But I also love literature, and paying too much attention to specifics puts me in mind of the generally superior originals.  I'll stack Utnapishtim against any of the copies just based on the loaves of bread being used as such a wonderful plot device.     

I do try not to have a problem with honest questions, although a character flaw is that I often have trouble simply respecting several specific religions at all due to their excessive plagiarism.

And don't beat yourself up for forgetting alternative religions.  You have no idea how many people present Pascal's Wager as their way of finding out that the answer to "What do you have to lose by worshiping my god?" is "I could annoy the other 4,199 gods by becoming an infidel, so what makes yours special?"     

[Cin]

I agree that people are good not because of their religion and I don't think that fear is what keeps people on the straight and narrow.

but do you feel bad or powerless about all the bad things happening in the world? If there is no karma or judgement, then that means people can and are getting away with bad stuff and they never get punished..

Let me state my beliefs, I believe in karma and judgement. World seems fair even if justice isn't served in this lifetime.

[Semira]

but do you feel bad or powerless about all the bad things happening in the world? If there is no karma or judgement, then that means people can and are getting away with bad stuff and they never get punished..

In regards to bad things happening around the world...something tragic is happening to somebody on Earth every second of every day. It is just a fact of life that we have to accept. If I chose to feel bad every time something bad happened somewhere in the world I would be miserable 100% of the time. This might sound callus, but unless something has a significant impact on my life and those I care about, I don't have the mental energy to spare to worry about it.

In regards to karma...to me the concepts of good and bad are just constructs of the Human mind. On Earth, areas of high atmospheric pressure causes air to flow towards areas of low atmospheric pressure. There is an actual physical imbalance in the atmosphere that the planet is constantly trying to correct. Concepts of good and bad aren't like that. They aren't actual things. If I do something bad, there isn't going to be some kind of energy void floating around me that is going to attract some force to fill that void.

I can understand the appeal of karma though and why people choose to believe in it. It is definitely satisfying to watch someone get what is coming to them!