Does gender behaviour come naturally?

[buttercup]

I agree with you Keira.  People are more complex than we think.  There are shades of grey, but some people only like black and white.  Such is life.

[Mia and Marq]

I think, we like to simplify things. Because it would be simpler if the reason why women and men are different and where does this difference comes from was clear cut.

As we see with gender variants, and androgynes and the huge variance in TS's and women's gender expression, it cannot be that simple, because there is to much variance to be explained by something simple.

Wow Keira, nicely put. The complexity of life is way too varied to be as predictably categorized as some would have believed. The uniqueness of life and humans should not be underestimated.

Someone should buy you a pizza, or a trophy. Or maybe a pizza trophy.

Marq and Mia

[Nero]

So, if someone dresses you in pink clothes and surrounds you with dolls since you were born, what do you take from this? If someone takes your a girl and your dad puts you on the hockey team at 5, or takes you hunting at 8, or builds robots with you from age 4, what influences does this have?

I think these things may influence likes and dislikes, and maybe personality traits to a certain extent (I like pretty girly stuff maybe because it was given to me), but that is not gender 'behaviour' in the real sense. You can't tell who is a girl and who isn't based on whether she plays dolls or robots.
Gender behaviour is how one thinks, communicates, carries oneself, reacts to things, etc. It's male thought patterns vs female thought patterns.
It's more than being a stereotypical 'pretty in pink' girl or not.

Its a complex thing here.
Even if gender is innate, I see more as a guideline, and map for learning.
That explain the vast disparity in behavior and expression even in people brought up just about the same.
Meaning, you absorb information differently, use it differently, than a male, because of this born predisposition.
But, what information you are expose to, still has a big influence since you cannot work from nothing.

Also, there is a couple of thing here.

There is unconscious or environmental directed learning (the only on in very young children) , directed learning (somewhat exposes you to specific information) and self-directed learning (you are the one seeking the information according to inner predisposition and prior learning).

So, if someone dresses you in pink clothes and surrounds you with dolls since you were born, what do you take from this? If someone takes your a girl and your dad puts you on the hockey team at 5, or takes you hunting at 8, or builds robots with you from age 4, what influences does this have? Do you then become a star female hockey player, reading everything you can about bodychecking, or collect guns, read guns and ammo, and become a swat team sharpshooter. Or, maybe go to MIT in engineerig and build a robot called Robbie soon to lost in space...

I think, we like to simplify things. Because it would be simpler if the reason why women and men are different and where does this difference comes from was clear cut.

As we see with gender variants, and androgynes and the huge variance in TS's and women's gender expression, it cannot be that simple, because there is to much variance to be explained by something simple.

It is complex. But the innate gender always drowns the socialization. How could a girl (using mtf example) raised as a boy and taught all these things STILL be so female that everyone notices? Socialization does make a superficial difference which is shed like snakeskin once she comes out.

[Rachael]

Hey Rachael 

You're one cool girl but you do realise bitching ain't cool, no matter who does it.  Sorry, but there seems to be a bit of *nudge, nudge*, *wink, wink* thing going on, am I correct?  I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

buttercup

I was merely reminding Andra, a friend, of a story i told them a while ago pertaining an individual, said individual is not on these boards....

So, if someone dresses you in pink clothes and surrounds you with dolls since you were born, what do you take from this? If someone takes your a girl and your dad puts you on the hockey team at 5, or takes you hunting at 8, or builds robots with you from age 4, what influences does this have?

look at dr moneys work, it did nothing, the child grew up as a boy, no matter how feminine his upbringing, rest in peace. Same with me, i had a reinforced masculine upbringing to 'reinforce' my correction... I was PUNISHED, for any sign of femininity... i was able to socialize with other females almost instantly... 'oh i was socialized x' is a great excuse for why they don't behave like their supposed gender identity. but when the mater is at hand. well, Socialization cant change you. it can either fit, or abrade...
R

[Nero]

One cannot 'learn' to be female. Female is more than walking a certain way, sitting a certain way, talking a certain way, etc.
That's what finishing schools are for.

[Rachael]

sactly.... i just wish others could accept this. Ive never once looked at how to behave, or sound, yet i come accross unequivicably as female. This is my proof to myself of who i am. I have somewhere i fit, and im happy. I could not live my life as an actor... thats WHY i transitioned.
R

[seldom]

sactly.... i just wish others could accept this. Ive never once looked at how to behave, or sound, yet i come accross unequivicably as female. This is my proof to myself of who i am. I have somewhere i fit, and im happy. I could not live my life as an actor... thats WHY i transitioned.
R

I would not so much stress how you sound.  Voice is socialized, probably more than you realize.  I worked about a week to get my voice down, but it was more of the effect of using a voice I already used on certain occasions consistently.  It wasn't acting, it was literally just taking certian mental blocks down.

But many people have to work on their voice for a great deal of time for good reason. 

But the truth is one has to have a naturally good voice to begin with, and as much as it pains me to say this, not everybody is that blessed. 

[Lisbeth]

But, I was a failed male. I was actually diagnosed as having no real defined adult socialised identity. Quite rare. Because I didn't want at all to be a male and couldn't be female, I was nothing!! Its hard to go through life not knowing where you stand on anything.

You sound a lot like me, Keira.

I think we need ENDA legislation to protect us from "our own" sometimes

You have that right, Kate.

[Keira]

Money's case doesn't contradict what I'm saying at all!!

Rachael, Please read what I'm saying, good grief!!!
You keep on spitting out responses which reflect your bias
instead of as reply to what I just said.

If gender is innate, which is probably more map for future learning of social cues. That's why there's such a disparity in response in women, TS, gender variants, androgyne and men

The person in Money's case absorbed the social cues with a male map and that's why it failed.

[Nero]

sactly.... i just wish others could accept this. Ive never once looked at how to behave, or sound, yet i come accross unequivicably as female. This is my proof to myself of who i am. I have somewhere i fit, and im happy. I could not live my life as an actor... thats WHY i transitioned.
R

I would not so much stress how you sound.  Voice is socialized, probably more than you realize.  I worked about a week to get my voice down, but it was more of the effect of using a voice I already used on certain occasions consistently.  It wasn't acting, it was literally just taking certian mental blocks down.

But many people have to work on their voice for a great deal of time for good reason. 

But the truth is one has to have a naturally good voice to begin with, and as much as it pains me to say this, not everybody is that blessed. 

Things such as voice and walking depend a lot on physical makeup. It really is the luck of the draw. Those who have more vocal talent will have it easier. And you're right, it depends a lot on the voice puberty 'gifted' you with.

Posted on: November 01, 2007, 12:43:22 PM

The person in Money's case absorbed the social cues with a male map and that's why it failed.

Male map?

[Rachael]

Money's case doesn't contradict what I'm saying at all!!

Rachael, Please read what I'm saying, good grief!!!
You keep on spitting out responses which reflect your bias
instead of as reply to what I just said.

If gender is innate, which is probably more map for future learning of social cues. That's why there's such a disparity in response in women, TS, gender variants, androgyne and men

The person in Money's case absorbed the social cues with a male map and that's why it failed.

the person in moneys case was a BOY. who lost his penis in a circumcision accident which prompted money's experiment. they absorbed male social clues because they WERE male, not by any bias, said boy was told he was a girl, to which he consistently replied 'no im not' the entire case has been misrepresented, plagorised by money himself, and hurt thousands.
Gender is less of a map, and more of a set of codes, that unlock certain doors, you can only learn something, if you have the inate ability, this is why some ts women (while its on topic) instantly socialise as females, because thier coding allows for it, and found socialisation with males, distressing, or impossible. its the old addage of men saying women are 'complicated' and vice versa. I belive very strongly in brainsex as the most important thing in somones body. After the brain, the body is secondery to a persons gender identity. Nobody can change the brains sex, thus money's work, of nurture over nature failed. simply because gender is a hardwriten template.
Kiera: dont get wound up please, 'my bias' is called my opinion, its a bit like yours, only evidently you dont agree.
R

[Lisbeth]

If gender is innate, which is probably more map for future learning of social cues. That's why there's such a disparity in response in women, TS, gender variants, androgyne and men

Part of this arguement is from mixing the concepts of "gender identity" and "gender roles."  Unfortunately most psychologists define "gender identity" to mean basically the same as gender roles.  It's not.  "Gender identity" is the self-knowledge of whether you are male or female.  But psychologists generally explain it in terms of how you are socialized to live out your gender roles.  Newer research in neuro-chemistry is continuing to build a strong case against this explanation.  Today, "gender identity" is looking more and more like an innate, instinctive thing, whereas gender socialization only affects how we live out our gender roles.

Rachael, you are right.  Gender identity is innate.

Keira, you are right.  Gender behavior is learned.

Male map?

The idea that related bits of knowledge are organized as maps.  Therefore there is a map that contains what we believe about males and a map that contains what we believe about females.

[Keira]

Actually, that the crux of it.

Gender Identity impacts processing of information and learning thus
how you can integrate or even accept gender behavior. Learning is a
feedback loop, if gender identity impacts information processing (which I believe
it does) it is a kind of sifter for information, well
the same information won't produce the same results in male and females.
And like all feedback loop, past learning impacts future learning, so it is reinforcing
(which adds to the complexity of the socialisation process).

That explain the Money case completely.

In spite of being exposed to a female upbriging, the mapping was male and the so the resulting behavior and acceptance of female socialisation completely failed.

The result is actually to get a masculine female in spite of being exposed to a supposedly female upbriging. The only things that really took were male socialisation cues in surrounding environment.

Why do you think a young TS is able to instantly socialise, there's no such thing. Its because they were actually partially socialised as female inspite of their upgriging. Even someone brought up male will be surrounded by female socialisation clues, though you don't get the full picture obviously. That's why the initial behavior at transition is a bit stilted.

[Lisbeth]

Everything we do is a mixture of nature and nurture.

[Rachael]

im actually against your theory kiera, i was raised with reinforced masculine thingys, and was actively punished for feminine behaviour as the doctors told my parents to do. (genetal correction at birth to male) i was at an all boys school from 2-18, and have very little female contact, yet ariving at university, i instantly socialised as female...
R

[Keira]

Racheal, your own past messages seems to go counter to the instant socialisation claim.

And also, what on earth do you mean!! I'm in university and work, have female friends, go clubbing, and everything and nobody knows.

Is that instant socialisation? Did I know everything that needs to be learned? If I see some new thing women do in a new setting I've never been in, do I tune out any new information I come about because I'm complete now?

Maybe we should call it socialised enough to get by in the first days, then a quick reinforcement in the following days. But, socialisation is an ongoing process. I'm sure I've done some faux-pas that got some of my friend scratching their heads, especially in the beginning.

[Alison]

The issue I'm still having with this thread is there is a feeling of "if you don't convince ME that you are ______ I will think you're just faking."

If someone transitions easier then someone else?  great, good for them, but it doesn't make the other person any less valid.  Comments like "you can just -tell- when someone doesn't have *it*" Have the aire of eminence to them.

Why can't we just unequivocally accept each other? 

as Kate said:

I think we need ENDA legislation to protect us from "our own" sometimes

Can't we all just get along?   

[lisagurl]

Can't we all just get along?

Because gender or sex identity is not a strong trait to base friendship on.

[Shana A]

There is such a wide range of possible expression within each gender... why limit ourselves to 1950s TV stereotypes of gender?

I have always been the person I am, regardless of which gender anyone thought I was. As others have posted, I also failed miserably at being "male", and in fact, couldn't care less... I never bothered to try.

zythyra

[lisagurl]

failed miserably at being "male", and in fact, couldn't care less... I never bothered to try.

I did not fail I just redefined it. Just as I am redefining the female. Each person needs to be themselves regardless of the definitions society gives.