Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

Judge not

Started by Terra, October 30, 2007, 09:10:01 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Terra

I was walking through the student union, and I came across an interesting booth. This booth was denouncing evolution because both the Bible and science disprove it. Piqued I walked over to talk to them, interested in their viewpoint.

Turns out their viewpoint went along with mine. Evolution works fine for the short term (short term being defined as billions of years) but breaks down longer then that. Somehow we moved from evolution to LGBT rights, to ->-bleeped-<-. This is when it got interesting.

My viewpoint is that the Bible is a great moral compass, but should never be taken literally. My reasoning is that knowing human nature, its very unlikely that the Bible is even 50% the same as it was. To many people with agendas through out history have had access and ability to change it, and we know some people actually did change it. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" was an addition made by an English king. Apparently this did not settle well with the guy across from me.

Apparently if it isn't in the bible, or even remotely against it, its a sin. He claimed that the bible forbids men to act femmine, and women to act masculine. Somehow he got it in his head that I was FTM and I didn't feel the desire to correct him as I was already annoyed. (sorry guys) So therefore I was sinning against God, he even had the gall to accuse me of robbing the world of children by having my vagina removed!

My counterpoint was that if indeed the bible said this (I never read that) then there might be another possibility. My soul might have been male while my body female. Thus no problem, after all, TS people simply feel wrong in their birth sex and been documented to shown mannerisms for the most part of the opposite gender.  Furthermore, any accusation that God couldn't do such a thing is to put a limit on God, which on what basis and ability did he have to do so?

I ran this up with on what basis would he have to judge anyone? The right and ability of judgment is God's alone. "Let he who has never sinned, cast the first stone." He mentioned that the bible wants us to warn others of their sin. That may be, but to actively call someone a sinner is to make judgment, and to even hint that ->-bleeped-<- is a sin is wrong because nowhere is it mentioned in the bible, the basis of his argument.

About this time I had to leave to get to class, he says he will be in the union every Friday and I plan to have plenty of scriptures to lay on him that will hopefully get him to be more understanding of people. To judge something you have no understanding of, like he does, to be a sin is only to prove to the world you are ignorant.
"If you quit before you try, you don't deserve to dream." -grandmother
  •  

buttercup

Hi Angel,

In the Catholic faith everyone is a sinner, except for children, as they are pure and innocent.  So I've been a sinner nearly all my life, I've kind of got used to it.  I haven't been to confession for years and years and this is where you can confess your sins, be absolved by your Priest, say your penance with your rosary in hand, and go off to be a sinner again.  It's a vicious circle I'm afraid.

I have problems with elements of the Bible, but I've been told by a Priest that some are simple stories that were of their time.  In an era where marriage was common for a 14 or 15 yr old, it would be expected that they were a virgin before marriage.  But translate it to this day and age where people don't marry until their late 20's or even 30's, it would be hard to expect that to be adhered to.

I agree, it is God and only God who can judge and who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  Bigots won't even get a look in, so they are wasting their breathe!  They are purely here to make hell on earth so we can do God's work by renouncing them and help to change their thought processes, unfortunately most never change!  :(


buttercup  :)
  •  

Hazumu

Transgender are in the bible.  Not directly, but by inference.

http://www.whosoever.org/v2Issue2/starchild.html

Karen
  •  

Terra

"If you quit before you try, you don't deserve to dream." -grandmother
  •  

Suzy

Karen,

That's a great article.  Thanks for sharing it.

Kristi
  •  

Pica Pica

crossdressing is expressly forbidden somewhere I remember.
  •  

cindianna_jones

Quote from: Pica Pica on October 31, 2007, 05:01:14 AM
crossdressing is expressly forbidden somewhere I remember.

Yes, this is true.  Women are NOT to dress as men.   hehehehe  Lay that one on the cute bible thumping girl wearing pants.

Hey listen.  Don't argue with them. It bears no fruit.  If you can have a reasonable discussion, then do so.  But if you get lost in scripture reference, you have lost the battle and they have won.  For they will believe only their interpretation.  No one wins in an argument. 

Be inspired by your faith.  Don't let them soil what is cherished.  Let it go.

Cindi
  •  

Terra

Quote from: Cindi Jones on October 31, 2007, 06:42:33 AM
Yes, this is true.  Women are NOT to dress as men.   hehehehe  Lay that one on the cute bible thumping girl wearing pants.

Hey listen.  Don't argue with them. It bears no fruit.  If you can have a reasonable discussion, then do so.  But if you get lost in scripture reference, you have lost the battle and they have won.  For they will believe only their interpretation.  No one wins in an argument. 

Be inspired by your faith.  Don't let them soil what is cherished.  Let it go.

Cindi

I plan to, it just irks me when I meet a close minded fundamentalist. I just don't understand them, how is it they can hate and deject so much? Why do people like that like to say we are evil? I talk and debate with them so that I can hopefully understand where they are coming from, then maybe I can find the way to help them understand. I truely pity those who can not accept others as everyone has something to teach. But this guy has been approached many times by the local LGBT center and still doesn't get it, so I'm not going to go to far out of my way for it.

He doesn't make me doubt my God, or the love both he and Jesus have for me. If it weren't for them I'd be dead a long time ago. For better or worse they keep me alive, so I know they love me. But this man has verbally...well attack might be to strong, other LGBT members on campus. I feel that it is my duty to try and explain the truth, and stop him hopefully from spreading misconceptions about the LGBT community. Maybe a lost cause, but maybe its the part of me that wants to be a teacher.

Quote from: Pica Pica on October 31, 2007, 05:01:14 AM
crossdressing is expressly forbidden somewhere I remember.

True, but who defines what is male clothing and female clothing. What makes one piece of fabric female and another male?
"If you quit before you try, you don't deserve to dream." -grandmother
  •  

David W. Shelton

Quote from: Angel on October 31, 2007, 11:34:27 PM
I plan to, it just irks me when I meet a close minded fundamentalist. I just don't understand them, how is it they can hate and deject so much? Why do people like that like to say we are evil? I talk and debate with them so that I can hopefully understand where they are coming from, then maybe I can find the way to help them understand. I truely pity those who can not accept others as everyone has something to teach. But this guy has been approached many times by the local LGBT center and still doesn't get it, so I'm not going to go to far out of my way for it.

He doesn't make me doubt my God, or the love both he and Jesus have for me. If it weren't for them I'd be dead a long time ago. For better or worse they keep me alive, so I know they love me. But this man has verbally...well attack might be to strong, other LGBT members on campus. I feel that it is my duty to try and explain the truth, and stop him hopefully from spreading misconceptions about the LGBT community. Maybe a lost cause, but maybe its the part of me that wants to be a teacher.

Quote from: Pica Pica on October 31, 2007, 05:01:14 AM
crossdressing is expressly forbidden somewhere I remember.

True, but who defines what is male clothing and female clothing. What makes one piece of fabric female and another male?

Fundamentalists are actually very easy to understand. Alas, that's part of what frustrates us so much about their views. You see, it's all about being safe. Most fundamentalists have some kind of history that's replete with all sorts of really bad things. You'll often hear stories of drug use, prostitution, pagan/new age/occult involvement, "lots of sex," and "homosexuality" or "crossdressing" in their pasts. Their testimonies are often emotional stories of how God reached them in their lowest point to pull them out of the quagmire.

But how is that different from the rest of us? After all, a lot of us who are NOT fundamentalists have had similar pasts? Fundamentalists will often shape their religious pantheon around avoiding any semblance of their "former selves." They are literally afraid of going back, and will do anything they can to keep that from happening. They have been told that salvation is a gift, and that it's by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

They have also been told that they have to follow a plethora of rules, which would immediately render their spiritual growth in vain. Their version of God is a kind of all-seeing deity that's ready to strike whenever someone "sins" and then will destroy all those "sinners" who have yet to "repent" of their "wicked ways."

But why do I say it's "safe?" It's quite simple... this is a god (little G is intentional) that they can comprehend. They can understand their place in the universe. It's far more important to build a wall of separation between yourself and the outside world. After all, why should we allow that dark, wicked world to influence us? It's "safe" because they don't have to run anymore... they can just build an imaginary world where everything can be solved or answered with a simple Bible verse or doctrine.

The dark side of fundamentalism is that for them to be the good guys, there must be enemies. As a result, they will demonize and marginalize any other group they can to make themselves look like the salvation of society they view themselves to be. This is why "abortionists," "new agers," "liberals," and "militant homosexual activists" are denigrated at every opportunity. To them, anyone in these groups are truly evil, as they dare to question the house of cards that fundamentalism really is.

After all, their world is built in black or white. There is no color, there are no shades of gray. One is either damned or saved. There are no in-betweens. There are no journeys, no paths, and they are literally the gatekeepers to this "truth." In short, fundamentalism is built on words. The Gospel must be told, a "sinner" must be told that they're retched, we must tell our own testimony in order to keep from falling back in, and to keep others from going down the same path of destruction. We must tell someone of our "decision" to come to Christ.

It's when this fragile world begins to crack that fundamentalists will become violent in their views. This is why transgendered and those of us in the rest of the GLBT community are considered "evil." After all, we dare to question the black-or-white view, and we see beyond the archaic rules and laws of old. Many of us have embraced our checkered past as a part of our lives, even though we've been healed or delivered from destructive behavior. We've moved on; we don't have to tell our testimony of grace-- we live it.

In the end, Paul wrote, there is merely faith, hope, and love; the greatest of which is love. No matter how dark our past might be, or whether or not we're gay, lesbial, bisexual, or transgender... the love of the Living God is for all of us. There's great hope in that. And the faith that drives both the hope and love that the Bible speaks of is enough to move moutains... even mountains of hate.
  •  

Sandy

Thank you David, that was very powerful.

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
  •  

Terra

I feel so sorry for people like that. I guess its like denial huh?
"If you quit before you try, you don't deserve to dream." -grandmother
  •  

cindianna_jones

David, I'd love to hear one of your sermons.  That was beautiful.

Angel, when it comes to the spiritual side of things, there is no one who truly understands or knows what the truth is. 

It is best to live a life of love and caring.  There is much truth that comes from love.

Cindi
  •