How do you actually know a guy didn't know you was trans when y'all met?

[Angélique LaCava]

It's a question that popped in my head. So are there any real signs or do you just have to believe that they were being honest when they told you they didn't know you was transgender.

[stephaniec]

I don't know , how do you tell if some guy says he loves you and only you

[Rachel]

I do not think you will know if someone is telling the truth other than some body language cues. You can look them up as to common body language cues when people lie. One common thing is people lose eye contact and look to your left or right.

[Sophia Sage]

The only way to really know, as far as I'm concerned, is to also have relationships with men without disclosing your narrative.  After building up that experience, you can compare to relationships where your narrative was on the table.

If there's no difference, then yeah, they've read you. 

[Angélique LaCava]

The only way to really know, as far as I'm concerned, is to also have relationships with men without disclosing your narrative.  After building up that experience, you can compare to relationships where your narrative was on the table.

If there's no difference, then yeah, they've read you.

what if those guys you dated did know but acted like they didn't? I'm starting to see this was a stupid question lol. You can't actually tell if someone really didn't know.

[mac1]

what if those guys you dated did know but acted like they didn't? I'm starting to see this was a stupid question lol. You can't actually tell if someone really didn't know.

Not a stupid question - you got your answer.

[Sophia Sage]

what if those guys you dated did know but acted like they didn't? I'm starting to see this was a stupid question lol. You can't actually tell if someone really didn't know.

I have found qualitative differences in situations between having an open narrative versus having a private narrative.  Now, of course, it's possible this doesn't change what people think they know.  However, it does change the rules of how the social interactions will play out. 

Likewise, they don't really know unless you tell them, or you're getting feedback from other quarters that you're visibly transgendered. It goes both ways. 

Which rather begs the question, how do you gauge how you're being read?  There are many ways.  First, you get misgendered, which isn't automatically recanted when you speak.  Second, people ask you about your transition or your status (which is something to expect from ->-bleeped-<-s).  Finally, there are all kinds of subtle social cues -- the way men and women interact with you, in general, because frankly trans people are not very common and the average person is going to be somewhat uncomfortable, not easy and relaxed and quite sure of what the rules for social interaction are supposed to be.

This is something I noticed in particular after facial surgery.  Before, there was a slight lag when meeting people, as their subconscious minds had to "double take" to figure out how to categorize me.  After, there was no lag. 

Of course, some social cues are rather more blatant -- like when another woman asks if you've got a spare tampon in your purse.

[Angélique LaCava]

I have found qualitative differences in situations between having an open narrative versus having a private narrative.  Now, of course, it's possible this doesn't change what people think they know.  However, it does change the rules of how the social interactions will play out. 

Likewise, they don't really know unless you tell them, or you're getting feedback from other quarters that you're visibly transgendered. It goes both ways. 

Which rather begs the question, how do you gauge how you're being read?  There are many ways.  First, you get misgendered, which isn't automatically recanted when you speak.  Second, people ask you about your transition or your status (which is something to expect from ->-bleeped-<-s).  Finally, there are all kinds of subtle social cues -- the way men and women interact with you, in general, because frankly trans people are not very common and the average person is going to be somewhat uncomfortable, not easy and relaxed and quite sure of what the rules for social interaction are supposed to be.

This is something I noticed in particular after facial surgery.  Before, there was a slight lag when meeting people, as their subconscious minds had to "double take" to figure out how to categorize me.  After, there was no lag. 

Of course, some social cues are rather more blatant -- like when another woman asks if you've got a spare tampon in your purse.

so if some people know your trans and some don't then what does that mean exactly? Usually guys can't tell, but women can.

[EmilyMK03]

so if some people know your trans and some don't then what does that mean exactly? Usually guys can't tell, but women can.

Women are better than men at clocking us because they know what women are "supposed" to look like, act like, speak like, etc.  Women spend more time around other women than men do, and they are women themselves, so they are able to pick up on all the subtle cues that someone might be trans.

It's not surprising, really.  For example, if I look at an Asian person, I can often tell if they are Korean, Japanese, or Chinese simply based on how they look.  I doubt that many non-Asians could do that.  They'd probably just say that "all Asians look the same to me".    This is because Asians are familiar with what Asians look like; we tend to spend more time around others like us, so we're familiar with the Asian face.  The same holds true for women being able to tell which women are cis and which are trans.

[Sophia Sage]

so if some people know your trans and some don't then what does that mean exactly? Usually guys can't tell, but women can.

Women are better than men at clocking us because they know what women are "supposed" to look like, act like, speak like, etc.  Women spend more time around other women than men do, and they are women themselves, so they are able to pick up on all the subtle cues that someone might be trans.

It's not surprising, really.  For example, if I look at an Asian person, I can often tell if they are Korean, Japanese, or Chinese simply based on how they look.  I doubt that many non-Asians could do that.  They'd probably just say that "all Asians look the same to me".    This is because Asians are familiar with what Asians look like; we tend to spend more time around others like us, so we're familiar with the Asian face.  The same holds true for women being able to tell which women are cis and which are trans.

First, Emily is right, for those of us looking to become women, it's from other women, not men, that we will learn the most about ourselves and how we're moving through the world.  It's from our relationships with other women that we will pick up on what it means to be "socialized."

But to address Angélique's question, what does it mean to have experiences of disclosure and non-disclosure?  Or, more bluntly, what is the difference between social situations where you're passing and where you're not?  This is a difficult question to answer.  As pointed out before, it's not easy to know one from the other in the first place, for so much depends on how other people are perceiving us and modifying their behavior accordingly, all with a myriad of intentions. 

Here's the thing, though -- if you disclose, you are no longer passing.  Maybe you weren't in the first place, maybe you were, but once that story is out, it's out, and there's no going back, at least in this particular social setting.  So I think it's important to find places where you simply don't tell.  Spend some time there, and see how the social interactions you have in these spaces differ from those where you have necessarily outed yourself. 

Because there are differences (assuming you actually pass at first and second glance), and those differences are not superficial, especially once you get into the deep end of the pool. 

[Sandboxed]

Omg I've been through this many times. All I can say from experience is guys who didn't know will treat me way differently up until I spill the beans. After that they start calling me a man and making rude, hurtful comments. For most guys, your gender is ONLY about what's between your legs. It wouldn't matter if you looked like Jessica Alba. If you have a penis, your a dude.

Guys who have suspicions about it early on will steer the conversation towards the topic, or just ask flat out are you trans?

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[Ataraxia]

I don't think you can ever know for sure. The best you can do is ask him at a point in your relationship where you can trust him to always be level with you, and ask him if he knew when you first met. I think though, when you're at the early stages of a relationship with a guy, it's best not to worry too much about whether or not he knows (though I know that's easier said than done, it was practically all I thought about on my first date with my current bf ;; )

[archlord]

I totally HATE this feeling . There is no way to figure out as we are insecure and paranoid

[pretty pauline]

The best you can do is ask him at a point in your relationship where you can trust him to always be level with you, and ask him if he knew when you first met.

Well that's precisely what I did, when I did eventually disclose my history and after when things settled down, I was very curious and just out of my own curiosity, I did ask him if he knew or had any suspicions, he had none whatsoever only when we we're intimate he found my vagina a lot tighter than other women, he had a lot of experience with women before me, that was the only thing, we did eventually get married.

[Lady_Oracle]

I basically just compare my experiences before I started passing prehrt vs now and like I have not ever experienced what I went through those years in recent time and I'm also really good at reading people. You can tell easily if you understand how to read body language super well. People can easily control what they say and stuff but they can't control reactions and movement perfectly in the moment when they're feeling a certain way.

[Sophia Sage]

I basically just compare my experiences before I started passing prehrt vs now and like I have not ever experienced what I went through those years in recent time and I'm also really good at reading people. You can tell easily if you understand how to read body language super well. People can easily control what they say and stuff but they can't control reactions and movement perfectly in the moment when they're feeling a certain way.

Excellent point!  We know what it's like when the story is out on the table from the beginning.  It takes time developing relationships where the story isn't out on the table, and through that accumulated experience it becomes pretty clear, I think, in discerning the difference.

[Virginia Hall]

In my experience you discover it over time. How does he vibe with you? Does he man'splain? Does he think you are a second-class citizen? Does he tell you there are things you can't understand because you are female? etc.?

Is it after you say to yourself, "Being with guys ain't what it was cracked up to be? What did I ever do this?"

Is it after you realize you are doing all the cooking and cleaning up--even though he takes out the garbage and fixes the car and lifts heavy stuff?

Ya. . . that's about the time you realized he hasn't clocked you.

[Sophia Sage]

In my experience you discover it over time. How does he vibe with you? Does he man'splain? Does he think you are a second-class citizen? Does he tell you there are things you can't understand because you are female? etc.?

Is it after you say to yourself, "Being with guys ain't what it was cracked up to be? What did I ever do this?"

Is it after you realize you are doing all the cooking and cleaning up--even though he takes out the garbage and fixes the car and lifts heavy stuff?

Ya. . . that's about the time you realized he hasn't clocked you.

When he asks what you take for birth control...

When he says that he produces sperm and you produce eggs...

When he goes on at length about what a feminist he is...

[Angélique LaCava]

I can't just go out with guys unless I tell them because if your not honest with them then it's a relationship built on lies. I'm just going to accept the fact I'll never know if a guy already knew or not.

[Virginia Hall]

I can't just go out with guys unless I tell them because if your not honest with them then it's a relationship built on lies. I'm just going to accept the fact I'll never know if a guy already knew or not.

I lived a life of lies prior to transition. After transition I lived the truth. No lying involved.