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People's experience with progesterone.

Started by naa, October 16, 2016, 12:16:00 PM

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Mohini

Quote from: anjaq on October 19, 2016, 04:41:25 PM
Its an interesting hypothesis. Not sure it can be backed up by science though...
What does "out front" mean?

What happens is that most of the Progesterone in the capsule you swallow is converted to allopregnanolone in the liver - called first pass effect - and this is anti-anxiety and sedative. I use it that way if I have a rough time and need sleep. Usually I use the capsules more fficiently by taking them sublingual (or putting them into lower body cavities) - this increases the amount of P going into the blood by a factor of 3-6.

Call it intuition, which science is not really known for.

Out front as in, "Hey, my breasts are out front!  Watch where you put them!"

Are you saying that the P capsules can be taken sublingually, or that I need to see if they have them available in tablet form?
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anjaq

So your breasts changed to have more projection? Or is it a matter of sensitivity? Mine lost all sensitivity in surgery, sadly.

Yes I take those soft capsules with the micronized P and take them sublingual. They need to sit there for 15 minutes though, and they can taste bad. So I decided after a while to use them in other body parts. There are studies using them as vaginal pills - they work really well that way, but if you do not have the amount of secretion other women do, the hulls of the capsules get accumulated inside, so I used a different opening of the body and I get about 6 times the blood serum value than taking them orally, which is consistent with the studies about vaginal application. The dosage needs to be checked then of course - if you usuall take them orally and switch, your blood values will go up, so its needed to have a blood test done and see if the dosage is still right.

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Mohini

Quote from: anjaq on October 19, 2016, 05:36:10 PM
So your breasts changed to have more projection? Or is it a matter of sensitivity? Mine lost all sensitivity in surgery, sadly.

I have larger breasts than before, and that is before I went on the progesterone.  Now, I wait a couple of months to see what the results are.

Be careful about going sublingual on the progesterone capsules - progesterone is known to raise blood sugar.
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Lady_Oracle

Progesterone is great and I will never go off it completely. It has too many pros vs cons. E & P go together like pb&j. My breasts are like awesome, I'm still on the small side but they fit my chest nicely after 4.5 years of P but I don't have a large ribcage so thats a big factor. It took forever (I say forever but realistically my breast development followed the standard tanner stages timeline) and at one point was seriously considering implants but I'm glad I waited.
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anjaq

Quote from: Mohini on October 19, 2016, 06:42:45 PM
Be careful about going sublingual on the progesterone capsules - progesterone is known to raise blood sugar.
I am not sure about this... it seems not a problem with other women having normal progesterone levels. Never heard of it causing blood sugar issues, but one doctor claimed it would cause blood clots and increased risk of cancer, I believe she confused progestins with bioidentical progesterone

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Lady_Oracle

I sometimes take my micronized P sublingually, it allows me to half my usual dose for the day cause of the sharp spike. It raises my P level up to pregger levels, third trimester levels I think. The noticeable difference is that I don't get the drowsy effect and there's an instant noticeable feeling of mood elevation so I usually do it when I'm at the end of my injection cycle to curb my mood swings. It tastes disgusting though lol. I think rectal administration would work just the same,  though I haven't tried that way in a long time.
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SadieBlake

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on October 20, 2016, 12:06:19 PM
I sometimes take my micronized P sublingually, it allows me to half my usual dose for the day cause of the sharp spike. It raises my P level up to pregger levels, third trimester levels I think. The noticeable difference is that I don't get the drowsy effect and there's an instant noticeable feeling of mood elevation so I usually do it when I'm at the end of my injection cycle to curb my mood swings. It tastes disgusting though lol. I think rectal administration would work just the same,  though I haven't tried that way in a long time.

Wow, I may have to try this, I've not noticed tiredness but then I take P in the morning so maybe I'll start taking it at night and see if it helps sleep.

I do notice some drop in my energy levels on day 6-7 of my weekly IM estrogen, fortunately those are down days for me right now.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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Pisces228

How did you ladies get your Dr to prescribe progesterone?  My Dr said she never prescribed it when I asked her about it at my last appointment.  I seem to see more pros than cons when I read about it.
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Mohini

Quote from: Pisces228 on October 20, 2016, 08:03:20 PM
How did you ladies get your Dr to prescribe progesterone?  My Dr said she never prescribed it when I asked her about it at my last appointment.  I seem to see more pros than cons when I read about it.

I used the term Wiley Protocol, looked it up, and made a PDF of the article.  I studied it.  I wrote down my reasons for wanting to try it, including the symptoms I've been experiencing in the last few years, and I presented both to my doctor.  We went back and forth on it briefly.  The main issue is that it's complicated, a lot of work, and the doctor may not have studied this closely.  She was willing to let me be her first patient to try the Wiley Protocol (please note that T.S. Wiley is advocating other delivery methods other than pills, but I am getting results on pills).  I kept my cycle based on a menstrual cycle rather than the Wiley Protocol strictly, as I suspect there is a reason for the way a woman's body regulates her hormones.
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Roxy

Quote from: Pisces228 on October 20, 2016, 08:03:20 PM
How did you ladies get your Dr to prescribe progesterone?  My Dr said she never prescribed it when I asked her about it at my last appointment.  I seem to see more pros than cons when I read about it.

I had done quite a bit of research on progesterone before asking my doctor for a script.
There quite a lot of misleading information about progesterone.
Done properly progesterone has a number of positive effects for trans women.  Some you almost see mentioned.
I requested a script from my doctor and pointed out sone of the positive effects. She knew all about it of course , and was impressed I knew so much about it.
However she did point out only "bioindentical" progesterone is safe and effective.  So in my country the bioindentical version it's not easy to get and is expensive.
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Mohini

Yes, MPA (Medroxyprogesterone) is NOT the bio-identical version.  I so did not like the mental effect it had on me, which is why I stopped it after several months or a year about 16 years ago.  You want prometrium or the generic version (people have said that there is a difference between brand-name and generic, though).
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KayXo

I get the following positive effects from bio-identical progesterone (Prometrium):
- softer skin and hair, skin more translucent
- improved mood, increased motivation
- sleep better
- breasts get fuller, firmer and ache
- easier to cope with stressful situations

Not so good,
- increased appetite

I take a high dose of progesterone WITH food which, in a study, showed that taken this way, maximum levels are 4-8 fold higher relative to fasting condition, with levels typical of pregnancy levels but they also drop quite quickly (within an hour).

I find sublingual to be inconvenient and the "high" I get doesn't last nearly as long as when I take it orally. That is not good, for me. Rectally, not sure it absorbs efficiently, never checked levels when pills were inserted that way but when suppository was taken, levels were VERY low. Also mood enhancing effects are much less when taken this way. A study showed, however, very good and steady levels when progesterone suppositories were taken rectally. 

Cycles may be conducive to increased breast cancer risk.

Lancet. 2012 Jun 23;379(9834):2322-3.

"MacMahon and colleagues3 were
the first investigators to make a formal link with parity,
showing, in 1970, that parous women had a decreased
risk of breast cancer compared with nulliparous women.
Parous women receive further protection if they have
their first child at a young age, bear more children, and
if they breastfeed. These reproductive factors are now
known also to protect against the risk of ovarian and
endometrial cancer.4"

"Nulliparous women have a higher number of ovulatory
menstrual cycles than do parous women because of the
absence of pregnancy and lactation, and an increased
number of cycles affects cancer risk. Epidemiological
studies5,6 of breast cancer have directly linked number
of menstrual cycles to cancer risk."

"Time and further research will tell whether
continuous suppression of all menstrual cycles will
increase the protection against breast, ovarian, and
uterine cancers."

(see John Rock's error)

"someone hundreds of years ago had menarche at seventeen and had five babies and had three hundred fewer menstrual cycles than most women have today. The world is not the world it was. And some of the risks that go with the benefits of a woman getting educated and not getting pregnant all the time are breast cancer and ovarian cancer"

Traditionally, women experienced less menstrual cycles as they spent most their lives being pregnant and/or breastfeeding, times during which levels are more constant. Back then, breast cancer was less common but still more widespread among nuns who had many menstrual cycles.

Furthermore, taking estrogen in any which route (expect subcutaneously by implants) has shown to yield, in many instances, quickly fluctuating levels. For instance, with EV taken by intramuscular injection, levels peak and then drop relatively quickly (I know from personal experienced and studies have confirmed this, again and again, establishing half life at 4-5 days). This is even more marked with sublingual intake. Orally, it depends on the individual but some show a relatively quick drop in levels (within 6 hours of intake). Transdermal has also shown to result in fluctuating levels. Percutaneously, it depends and with EC taken intramuscularly, levels do indeed show more constancy.

Maturitas, 12 (1990) 171-197

"Large variations in oestradiol and oestrone levels can be observed in an individual
woman from day to day or from hour to hour, even during transdermal therapy
with oestradiol"

"After a single oral dose of (...) oestradiol valerate the plasma level of 17B-oestradiol rises measurably, although only minimally. The results of five separate studies all show that after a single administration of the ester maximum 17B-oestradiol concentrations in the range of 24- 140 pg/ml can be demonstrated at individually very different times (Table I). After the maximum concentration has been reached, the levels usually fall again quickly. There are again
great individual variations in the time at which the plasma concentrations of endogenous 17P-oestradiol as measured before administration of oestradiol valerate are reached again - from 6 h after administration in some cases to over 48 h in others."

Also, the claim that cyclicity is superior to constant levels should be reconsidered given:

CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63

"It has been shown that, in normal human epithelial
breast cells as well as in ER-positive breast
cancer cells, the proliferation rate did not differ
between incubation with 1 nmol/l estradiol for
24 h and with 24 nmol/l for 1 h"

Some show very good breast development with pellets which deliver constant levels of estradiol. I experienced better breast development on oral E2 (sublingual was the same) when levels were more constant versus IM injections where levels fluctuate very much.

"The comparable clinical efficacy of intranasal,
transdermal and oral administration of estradiol
indicates that the total exposure to the intracellular
estradiol (area under the concentration–time
curve, AUC) is an important determinant for the
biological response. The short-term presence of
high concentrations and the long-term presence
of low concentrations of estradiol may, therefore,
cause a similar expression of estrogen-dependent
products during a time interval of 12–48 h."

Overall concentration seems the key determinant rather than fluctuations.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Mohini

Quote from: KayXo on October 22, 2016, 01:17:13 PMOverall concentration seems the key determinant rather than fluctuations.

This does not apply to me, obviously.  I was getting much better development on 33% less estradiol in the last 2 cycles.  These guys think they can outsmart nature: someone had the following to say:

Science is limited in perception. It is like exploring a dense and dark forest with a tiny lamp. The lamp illumines only a few feet ahead and science proposes a theory based on what it sees within that limited space. Next, science advances forward with the light and sees a few more feet ahead. What they see is quite different from what they saw earlier. So they propose a new theory and discard the former one. This is how science operates.

Anyway, now, my question is, is it better to take the estradiol and progesterone together, or does it not matter?  I'm taking the estradiol in the morning and the progesterone in the evening, about 45 minutes before I go to bed.
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Sharon Anne McC


*

Thank you one and all for your replies.

What seems the best idea presented here is to use ERT / HRT as close to imitating the natural cycle.  Taking estrogen and progesterone according to a cycle plotted by your physician would accomplish this.

I had my blood drawn one week ago in preparation for my periodic endo appointment in the near future when she receives and studies those results.  Prompted by your responces at this thread, I shall ask many questions and seek many answers that I shall post here to add more medical perspective to this discourse following my up-coming endo appointment.

My doctors had me on DES, then Premarin, then generic estradiol throughout my years.  None had heard of using progesterone.

I campaigned for many months to my current endocrinologist to permit me to add progesterone since I became aware of its use about 18 months ago.  She finally agreed to add progesterone to my bare minimum estradiol three months ago.

Currently, my estrogen is a pill and progesterone is a capsule.  I allow them to completely dissolve under my tongue.

I as yet can not say what progesterone has done, has not done, or what effects it has had on my anatomy or psychology.  Maybe three months is too quick to determine any actual results.

     -  My blood pressure has remained quite steady through the years

     -  I experienced severe hair loss in 2014, but that was likely due to stress and major depression; it is nowhere close to where it was before, but I can accept its present condition

     -  My skin severe dry and flakey skin around my temples, cheeks, and eyebrows has not changed with progesterone

     -  My fingernails remain dry and chipping as before progesterone

     -  I dropt from 115 kg to nearly 90 kg since the beginning of this year due to more attention to a better diet

     -  I attribute breast reduction from D to C to weight loss

     -  While I usually take my progesterone capsule at night before bed, I do not notice that it makes me drowsy; I do not seem to notice being drowsy if I take it in the morning

My estrogen levels have ranged from 20s to 40s which is where my endo likes them.  My gynecologist argues that my levels should range from upper-100s to lower-200s.  In the middle, I negotiate their disparity by asking each to agree to whatever is a truly healthy level.

*
*

1956:  Birth (AMAB)
1974-1985:  Transition (core transition:  1977-1985)
1977:  Enrolled in Stanford University Medical Center's 'Gender Dysphoria Program'
1978:  First transition medical appointment
1978:  Corresponded with Janus Information Facility (Galveston)
1978:  Changed my SSA file to Sharon / female
1979:  First psychological evaluation - passed
1979:  Began ERT (Norinyl, DES, Premarin, estradiol, progesterone)
1980:  Arizona affirmed me legally as Sharon / female
1980:  MVD changed my licence to Sharon / female
1980:  First bank account as Sharon / female
1982:  Inter-sex exploratory:  diagnosed Inter-sex (genetically female)
1983:  Inter-sex corrective surgery
1984:  Full-blown 'male fail' phase
1985:  Transition complete to female full-time forever
2015:  Awakening from self-imposed deep stealth and isolation
2015 - 2016:  Chettawut Clinic - patient companion and revision
Today:  Happy!
Future:  I wanna return to Bangkok with other Thai experience friends

*
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Maybebaby56

Quote from: KayXo on October 22, 2016, 01:17:13 PM
Overall concentration seems the key determinant rather than fluctuations.

From what I have read, I would agree.  Peak plasma levels are meaningless.  It's bioavailability AUC that counts.

~Terri
"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives" - Annie Dillard
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LShipley

Since I used to be an advocate of this I thought I would add my experience.

I was on progesterone for almost a year before my doctors noticed some odd liver function tests. Long story short, lymphnodes were enlarging and causing slight blockages but no doctors knew why since all the immediate causes of that were shot down from testing. Progesterone was the newest medication so they took me off of that and closely monitored me for several months.

6 months later I'm healthy and tests are normal again. I haven't noticed any loss in development or slowdown since getting off of it. So except for being slightly addicted to the high that came with taking it, I'm just fine with it being gone. Boobs still growing and I'm happier taking less medication anyway. Interestingly, estrogen itself is supposedly a cause for lymphnode growth, but I didn't seem to have an issue until it was combined with progesterone. If my doctor wasn't monitoring my blood tests I wouldn't have known until I had liver failure, as he said it had to have been a gradual decline over months. Yeesh.

So that's my story.





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KayXo

I just read the monograph for progesterone and one of the side-effects (rare) listed is swelling of the lymph nodes. I cannot find the study from which this is based on. Glad things are back to normal! :)
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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SadieBlake

Highlights why it's so important to be monitored by an MD. MDs aren't gods but they do have specialized knowledge and good ones are good at the hardest part of medicine - diagnosis.

Kay, you are unlikely to. Those things come in from long term surveillance of people using pharmaceuticals, generally not from published research - just as the pharma companies don't publish their own research outside of what they file with FDA, EU, etc.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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LShipley

Yup, I love my doctor.

Hospital food isn't as good as they say either lol
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KayXo

Interesting study I came across on progesterone and its effects on sexual receptivity and attraction.

Nature 263, 606-608 (14 October 1976)

"Progesterone acting in the female seems to reduce sexual interaction in several primate species. It has been reported that sexual activity declines during the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle (when circulating progesterone levels are maximal), in monkeys, lowland gorillas and humans, and that administering progesterone to ovariectomised, oestrogen treated rhesus monkeys has a similar effect."

"One possibility is that progesterone acts on the female's central nervous system, causing her to accept or solicit fewer male mounts. Another is that progesterone somehow alters the vagina thereby changing non-behavioural cues (such as smell or tactile qualities) which contribute to her sexual attractiveness. Here, we present evidence favouring the second mechanism"

"Physiological increases in circulating progesterone made the females significantly less attractive to male partners" receptivity of females did not diminish however and actually even increased threefold!

When progesterone was administered vaginally, same results which suggest that it has something to do with progesterone's effect in and around the vagina. Females may be increasingly receptive to compensate for decreased sexual attractiveness.

"Oestradiol enhances sexual attractiveness of female monkeys by affecting the vagina."
"Progesterone could reduce the sexual attractiveness of the females by blocking these effects of oestradiol"

I personally don't think these findings necessarily negate the fact that progesterone may also alter other cues that may make females less attractive. This is especially fascinating to me as I studied those same monkeys in nature, years ago. Cute but can be quite aggressive at times and bite your ASS! Thankfully, not mine.  ;D

I've personally come across reports of women stating libido increased after taking progesterone while, judging from my own experience with it, I find estradiol to be much more libido enhancing.

Also, this study, in contrast to the assertions of leading doctors who treat transsexual women who say that progesterone doesn't have an effect on breast growth:

Breast Cancer Res Treat. 1986;8(3):179-88.

"In normal breast, estrogen stimulates growth of the ductal system, while lobular development depends on progesterone. Thus, estrogen and progesterone, when secreted in an adequate balance, permit the complete and proper development of the mammary gland."

A final interesting tad bit of info for those who may not be aware:

"Progesterone may also have an antagonistic activity against estradiol, mediated through a decrease in the replenishment of the estrogen receptor, and also through increased 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which leads to accelerated metabolism of estradiol to estrone in the target organ." Hence, making estrogen action less potent.

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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