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Support for Non-Transitioning Fiancee

Started by Vervain, October 18, 2016, 09:45:44 AM

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Vervain

OK, this is going to be long. My fiancee asked if I would post this when I mentioned I knew of a safe trans community that had a forum for this. She doesn't have much time outside of work and prefers to use it to de-stress by playing computer games. Since she works customer support, I don't blame her a bit for this.

People involved: Thorne (fiancee), Nameera (girlfriend & Thorne's on-a-break gf), Cat (Thorne's ex-wife)

So, Thorne has described to me a long-standing desire to be female. She's talked about feeling like a girl as a child and a teen, but her family is extremely unsupportive, and so she buried it for a long time. Sometime in the early 2000s, Thorne had a breakdown with Nameera, where she told her that she hated being male, that she hated having a penis, and that she felt like she was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Nameera had friends who were trans, and being somewhat knowledgeable, she went to Cat. Cat freaked out, accused her of lying, told her that Thorne was "all man", and that if she was wrong about that and Thorne EVER identified herself as a woman, she would divorce her and take the children, and Thorne would never see her daughters again. Since they lived in the Deep South, she probably could have done just that.

So, Thorne buried it again. We were friends then, and there were lots of little tells that made me suspect that Thorne was probably trans, at the very least non-binary. I didn't bring it up, though, because I figured she would when she was ready. But there have been several things I noticed, such as that she always wanted to be called by female pronouns when playing her in-game female characters, to the point of requesting such even in random groups with total strangers. There were also a few times that I messed up and called her by a female pronoun, and she would get this absolutely giddy smile on her face.

We became romantically involved two years ago; our handfasting anniversary (1yr!) is later this month. About a year back, when we were talking about gender, she said she thought non-binary fit, but didn't want to change pronouns.

I don't remember how it came about, precisely, but we've been talking about gender again over the past few days, and I finally talked to her about the various things, what Nameera had told me, and what I had observed over the past decade+. I asked her, in my usual blunt fashion, if she was a trans woman but afraid. It took a fair bit of talking, but she ultimately answered, "Yes."

We've continued to talk, and she has a female name that she wishes to be called by; for privacy reasons, I'm using a variant of it, Thorne. It also happens to be her WoW character name, so if someone messes up around her family (who she is not coming out to), we can just say that we've been playing the game a lot. She wants female pronouns used for her within the household. Our polyfamily is very accepting and supportive of her, which isn't a surprise given that everyone save her daughter is trans* in some fashion. Her daughter already suspected, and her only concern was that she was very attached to calling Thorne "Daddy", and she didn't want to lose that, but would respect it if Thorne wished otherwise; as it turned out, Thorne is pretty attached to that, too.

Thorne has worked very hard in therapy for the past decade+ on her body image and dysphoria. At this point, she says she is 90% comfortable in her body. She does not hate her body the same way she did before, and she does not resent having a penis any longer. In fact, her endocrinologist put her on a low dose of T because it was so low that it was causing erectile issues, and she was not happy with that. The dose she is on has solved that issue without causing any other effects.

Thorne does not wish to transition. We've talked at length, and she feels that at 45, she is comfortable in her body, and she has lived most of her life in it, and if she transitioned, she would have to adjust to an entirely new body. Plus, it would necessitate coming out more widely; right now, she only wants the family and a circle of close, trusted friends to know about it, although she is comfortable with me talking about it online in places that I feel are safe. She trusts my judgement.

She doesn't want her family to know, because her parents are financially assisting us, and if they knew, they would withdraw all support. She also doesn't know how her siblings would react. As a thought experiment, I asked her that if, say, we were in our early twenties, would she want to transition? After about a minute's thought, she said yes. But now? No. She feels she has done too much work on being okay with her body to want to change it now, and what matters to her is that those she loves and is close with know and respect her identity, which is precisely what has happened.

I asked her, because I wanted to make sure, if she would really be okay with only our polyfamily and our close trusted friends circle knowing, or if she would need to be out to be really happy. Thorne was confused and asked me to clarify, so I went into some detail about myself.

I knew from about age 8 that I wasn't straight. But my father is incredibly homophobic, and I knew that coming out would make my life more hellish than it already was. So, I buried it in denial for years. It wasn't until I was 17, and I had a supportive group of friends online, that I came out. As soon as I was 18 and no longer living with my family? I came out entirely. I have been out ever since. The entire time I had to hide it, I felt like I was living a lie. It felt sickening, depressing, and caused no end of anxiety.

I told her that was what I was worried about for her. She thought about it, and said that no, it would actually cause more anxiety and such to come out widely. For her, she only cares about chosen family and trusted friends knowing and respecting her as a woman. That's what matters. The rest of the world? They don't matter to her.

I should note that it is easy, where we live, in a queer/trans accepting area, for her to present in ways that are not rigidly masculine. She has gorgeous strawberry blonde hair down past her waist that she styles in more feminine ways, and she gets many compliments on it. I've also given her many of my old shirts that have faeries on them and that she never would have been able to wear in the Deep South without negative commentary. Thorne's personal dress style isn't such that she would care for overly femme styles, but it means that she can adopt more feminine accessories and shirts and such without any issue.

Since we've been talking, she's become a LOT more comfortable. Even sexually, she is more comfortable, because she says it feels different for her knowing and accepting that she is a woman, and that she feels it is lesbian sex vs. heterosexual sex. She had some pretty screwed up past partners who essentially convinced her that if she was having sex with a woman, achieving orgasm herself was "putting her desires above her partner's." No matter how clear I made it that I did not agree with that, and I wanted her to enjoy herself, too, it did not overcome those years of conditioning. But, pretty much as soon as she accepted herself as a woman... I asked her if it felt more "equal", and she said it did, and she didn't feel that way about it anymore.

Thorne feels more comfortable in her own skin, and her own self. I've seen people talk here about gender euphoria, and I was talking to her about that earlier, because she's been so beautifully giddy and happy with me calling her by Thorne and using female pronouns, and when Nameera's hubby, who considered her a brother when she identified as male, said "have a good day at work, sis," this morning when she left for work... I am so happy for her, and it makes me smile to see her so happy.

But she's scared. I asked her tonight what she was afraid of, and she said, rejection. I've told her that nobody will reject her that we would tell, and she knows that, but she's been rejected so much that it's automatic. She was worried about appropriation but after I explained what that actually was, she accepted she wasn't doing that.

But.. she is scared she's "doing trans wrong." Because the dominant trans narrative is transition. She's afraid that by not transitioning, she's not "really" trans. I've been attempting to reassure her, but I'm coming here to ask if anybody here would be willing to share their stories or even simply to reassure Thorne she's not doing it wrong, that her identity is just as legitimate regardless of transition. Thanks all in advance, and *offers cookie of choice* for reading this far! <3
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SadieBlake

The dominant narrative doesn't really matter.

I used to label myself as transgender because felt surgical transition wasn't feasible and in so choosing that the term transexual was inappropriate. In fact I longed to be transexual, part of that was wanting to qualify.

Today I identify as transexual and non-binary. Where I used to consider those two things mutually exclusive, now for me transexual indicates I would transition if I could. Today I've been on hrt for a good long time and will probably be going for surgery in the next year. However even if I had to stop short of that or even if I had to stop HRT (ain't gonna happen), I know transexual is the best term for me.

The label isnt even the point of course. Best wishes to thorne and all of you!
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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cheryl reeves

Cookies,I'll take a chocolate chip cookie...Thorne is doing right for her. I hate labels for they tend to get in the way,Im married to a wonderful woman and she is fine with the dressing but not hormones,so we made that the line not to cross and I'm fine with that.
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Sophia Sage

She has begun "coming out" with a new name and pronouns -- of course she's trans, and female.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say she's already begun transition.  She has nothing to justify.

The real question, and it may not be one to pitch to her, but one to keep in mind for yourself as her ally, is that as she starts getting gendered female consistently in a safe environment, will it kick up her dysphoria getting gendered male in other environments? 
What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it.
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Sno

Welcome to you both.

The journey is hers to take. Transitions are all choices, and driven by our need for relief from dysphoria. It's all too easy to be literal, if x then y and z. It could be that z needs to be before x and y, or that personally dealing with one aspect can make enough difference for the others to be managed.

It all can change, and what worked yesterday, may not work today or tomorrow. For some, transition in all ways is a base need and dysphoria up until that point cannot be satisfied. For most, at each step in transition, there is a relief from dysphoria, and that is consistent for us all - that is our quest.

My quest is as a genderqueer - I manage my day to day. For some things, I'm neutral, and others very feminine. As a natal male, this makes me transgender. I am one of the fortunate ones, I can live the level of persistent aggrevation of my dysphoria at the moment, thanks to the support of my home team (including the lovely folk here). Will this be the case in 5 years? I do not know.

Sno
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Vervain

Quote from: cheryl reeves on October 18, 2016, 11:07:37 AM
Cookies,I'll take a chocolate chip cookie...Thorne is doing right for her. I hate labels for they tend to get in the way,Im married to a wonderful woman and she is fine with the dressing but not hormones,so we made that the line not to cross and I'm fine with that.

When I get around to baking, I make some mean chocolate chip cookies. :)

I personally find labels useful... when I can find one that fits. I myself am dealing with some amount of "WTF" regarding my own trans-ness, because I have yet to find a label that fits me. So I use trans* as an umbrella term and if anybody asks... well, they're going to get the looooong version.

Thorne, I think, is likely disinterested in femme styles. I mentioned she has some of my old unisex shirts with more feminine designs, and I have a surprise shirt I've ordered for her that she can decide if is more fitting for home or out, but I think it will make her smile. I have absolutely no objections to what she chooses in regards to clothing.
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Vervain

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 18, 2016, 12:44:08 PM
She has begun "coming out" with a new name and pronouns -- of course she's trans, and female.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say she's already begun transition.  She has nothing to justify.

That... is an extremely good point, and not one I had considered. I actually read this and about headdesked because, reading it, it seems so obvious. I'll be linking the thread here to her and I think that this is a point that may help her a lot. Thank you.


QuoteThe real question, and it may not be one to pitch to her, but one to keep in mind for yourself as her ally, is that as she starts getting gendered female consistently in a safe environment, will it kick up her dysphoria getting gendered male in other environments?

That is what I was partly asking her when I asked whether she would need to be out socially as well. She says she's fairly sure she won't need to be, and since she had identified as non-binary for slightly over a year while being gendered male outside of the household environment, I trust her when she thinks it unlikely.

But, I had already brought it up as a concern I had, and I told her, when she told me she didn't care what strangers outside the household and trusted circle gendered her as, that should she EVER decide that she wishes to come out as female in other environments, she will have my full support. She'll also have the full support of our polyfamily, chosen family, and friends circle.

It is probably worth establishing, though, that these circles have a LOT of folks under the trans* umbrella. I'd say at least half are and maybe two thirds. So that does make some amount of difference, I think. And the cis folks are overwhelmingly queer and involved in activism. The women I have asked to be bridesmaids for my legal wedding to Thorne are all part of these circles, and they are all queer or trans (or both), save for one chosen sister who jokes that she's our token straight person.  :laugh:
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Vervain

Quote from: Sno on October 18, 2016, 04:52:16 PM
The journey is hers to take. Transitions are all choices, and driven by our need for relief from dysphoria. It's all too easy to be literal, if x then y and z. It could be that z needs to be before x and y, or that personally dealing with one aspect can make enough difference for the others to be managed.

Oh believe me, do I have intimate personal familiarity with dysphoria. *sigh*


QuoteIt all can change, and what worked yesterday, may not work today or tomorrow. For some, transition in all ways is a base need and dysphoria up until that point cannot be satisfied. For most, at each step in transition, there is a relief from dysphoria, and that is consistent for us all - that is our quest.

That's a very good point. I have been keeping in mind as it is that Thorne may decide later on that she wishes to pursue some form of transition, and I know there are so many perfectly valid choices regarding what types of transition to pursue. I have friends who only want HRT, for instance, and have no interest in any surgeries. And so forth.

I've already told Thorne, too, that if she later changes her mind as to what she wishes to pursue, she will have my full support -- and that of our polyfamily, chosen family, and friends circle. We are all, as a mostly trans* (somewhere or other on the spectrum) polyfamily to have other chosen family and close friends who are absolutely accepting of us.
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JoanneB

When I finally came to realize over 7 years ago I needed to take on the Trans-Beast for real, any sort of transition was absolutely positively and in no way on my mind. Some 30 years earlier I tried it, twice. Both times utter fails. Primarily due to zero, no negative, self confidence, a very poor body image at 6ft tall, balding and still shedding the last of the extra 100 lbs I used to carry around. They all added up to the constant and overwhelming "Some Guy in a Dress" feeling I not just felt but must have exuded given the experiences I had presenting as female.

A funny thing happened along the road to healing, a lot more then loosing a lifetime of emotional baggage got shed. As I slowly discovered bit by bit who I really am, somehow being out in the real world presenting as the real me became more important. Yet even after a year of HRT, any sort of transitioning was off the table. Somehow, so far, life was working, life was better, I began to discover joy.

Fast forward a few more years I still live and present primarily as male. For a few years I was living part-time as female. My breasts are now a for real B cup in some bras.  Somehow I am able to keep most to all aspects of my life as well as the very important aspects I know make me Me all in balance.

TBH - It wasn't and still isn't easy. I now want to do a full social transition in order to feel 100% authentic. Most days I do not need to. A full transition will put at risk some aspects of my life that are very important to me. Is temporarily being 100% authentic worth the longer term cost of then only being 60% when I am now at 90-80%? As I said most days I don't need to transition.

I spent almost a lifetime living up to what I believed other peoples expectations for me were.  I recently came to realize just how much a lifetime of kind of buying into what I call the "All or Nothing" trans narrative also affected my thinking. It led to many "WTF am I Doing ???" meltdowns. All in is just a variation of once again living up to other peoples expectations of, this time, what a trans person should do.

Thinking of myself in terms of Non-Binary makes it easy. Just as being trans is a spectrum, so is Non-Binary. It is what you NEED it to be. 

When talking about this with my therapist she said "Don't get hung up on labels...." Well, sometimes they do help. At least for now
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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Vervain

Joanne,

That describes how Thorne feels, a lot. She's considering coming out at work, because it's dissonant to be called by female pronouns at home and male pronouns at work. I advised her that if she chooses to do so, to let HR know because we live in a state with very strong trans discrimination laws, and her workplace has been anti-discrimination actively. I suggested this so that they are aware, in case she has issues with someone else, or someone else has issues with her.

I asked her if she wanted to pursue HRT, and she is unsure since certain aspects are not easily reversible. I can say I've noticed a significant positive difference in how she views herself and her self-worth since she realized she's a woman. I have a deep loathing for her ex-wife who threw a fit about it and insisted it would be bad for the children. They are both adults now, and their reaction has been complete non-surprised and absolute support.

Everyone that knows has been both unsurprised and supportive. We have been very lucky, and I don't take it for granted that Thorne has received so much support and acceptance. I asked her if I could tell my mom because I was concerned about slipping on pronouns, and Mom's response was that Thorne had always struck her as extremely feminine, so it wasn't a surprise.

It has also been consistent in my major relationships that I either knew them as trans from the start (my ex-fiance is a trans man, and wherein I learned that I absolutely am not compatible with masculine traits and identity, at all) or used language that would now be considered non-binary but that wasn't widely known at the time, or those who came out during our relationship. It's not a fetish; it's just how it's turned out.

Anyway. I and the rest of our polyfamily are in complete support of her, and our chosen family and close friends as well. She is well-loved and accepted for who she is, without question. I only wish that were true for so many other trans people; I have so many trans friends who have become estranged from their loved ones simply for being their authentic selves. :(
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