I beat up a guy who acted creepy with me

[jossam]

Not sure where I had to post it, so I'm posting it here. This has a lot to do with both misgendering and feminism, but also how we all neee to stand up for our rights, no matter if people perceive as men or women.

I'm a trans guy pre-everything, but I've always lived as a boy (and now man cause I'm an adult). Always. I'm out to my closest friends and to one of my sisters. Despite being told I act and look manly and naturally giving off "male vibes", sometimes I'm treated by other people as a woman, and occasionally receive sexism (both benevolent and hostile). This brings a lot of trouble for those people who do so. Let me explain this episode.

Last night I went to a friend's house to have dinner (everyone except me were cis people). I didn't really want to go, but this friend (cis woman) begged me to, promising she'd take me back home whenever I wanted to go. She's super nice so I eventually gave up. There was another female friend of mine (best friend) and male former high school classmates. Now...there's this one classmate who strikes me as creepy. Gut feeling. I believe humans possess innate alarm bells that ring when they perceive danger. I am very in tune with these bells of mine.
First, a few days earlier, he texted in this classmates  whatsapp group and acted annoying so I told him are you drunk? And then he sent a vocal message saying he was drunk on me. In a perverted voice. I got violent and tild him "what the <not allowed>?" or something like that.

Anyway, yesterday when we were at this friend's house he came to greet me sitting on my legs and kissing my cheek so I pushed him away and said "yo yo yo calm down!". Well, I feel like he's generally creepy with everyone but I hate this kind of behavior so I always make it clear that I don't put up with it.
He kept telling these two cis female friends but also to me to sit on his legs. I obviously ignored him all the time. Well, at some point I was sitting on a chair minding my own business. I saw him coming and lifting me (gently) to make me sit on his legs (it was against my will though cause I immediately snapped and got up). Another dude then laughed and called him a pervert cause this pushy guy said "he wouldn't hurt me". Since I know pretty damn well how the average male mind works (cis or trans), I figured they meant some sexual stuff (after all my ass was on his legs), and that's why the other dude called him a perv.

That's when I completely lost my s***.  Suddenly I turned around and started hitting this guy (the one who picked me up) on the head. At this point there was another friend (girl) sitting on him so I couldn't hit him well, to avoid hurting this girl friend.I also kicked him on the leg until others stopped me. My mind was foggy and I felt homicidal. I picked up a glass bottle of wine and threatened to smash it on his head. Everyone started getting agitated. This girl friend tried to calm me and made me sit somewhere. She told the guys to leave me alone.
They were also drunk (the guys). I was furious. This is not the first time I get so angry and escalate so quickly. It's a part of me but it only happens when I get pushed to the limit.

Then I grabbed a knife and threatened to stab everyone. Someone got it and threw it away. The two dudes who caused this kept saying they did nothing wrong. The creepy classmate was kinda mad too and was like "well I pick you up whenever I want and you shut up". At that point I was really homicidal and kept threatening.
said I didn't want to get picked up but I was so mad I couldn't even speak clearly. I was embarrassed to bring up pervertedness in front of everyone but I kept threatening them all with words like "I'll kill you all" and "I'm mad, I'm this way and I don't give a <not allowed>"'
The female friend, owner of the house, gently asked me if I wanted to go back home. So I said yes and she took me home.

I do not want to apologize to anyone there. Ever. I feel like no one should randomly grab, hug, pick up or sit anyone on their lap or whatever physical action against that person's will and when that person is just ignoring you or shows no desire to do any of those. As a trans man, I feel like I indeed have typical male reactions and these include physical and verbal violence when feeling threatened or mad. Not saying men should be violent. I admit threatening to kill people and waving glass bottles around is not acceptable behavior, but I just lashed out and I hope people know it's not ok to mess with me this way.

The creepy classmate also sent me kisses in the air, randomly. It's been a few days but I find his behavior with me and others as very creepy. We're former hs classmates, but not friends at all. I do mess around with my guy friends (one is even gay), and I have no problem joking about pervy stuff with my cis male gay friend (including me joking about wanting to give him a hj), .but we're very close friends so this is a big difference and if we are ok doing this to each other (consent) then it's no problem. Also I'm out to him and we just act like gay dudes to each other (except I'm mostly straight). But the key word here is always CONSENT. Consent is not just for sex or kissing, but also apparently innocent actions like sitting on someone's lap or hugging or dirty talk.

Sorry if this is too long to read. But everyone here, please, always stand your ground. I'm not telling you to do what I do like threaten people, but at least yell, rebel, get angry, walk out!

Fellow trans dudes here....sometimes we experience sexism, other times we perpetuate it doing certain things to women. Let's not! Let's be respectful to all ladies, because we might or might have been victim of sexism ourselves (people who do not recognize our manhood can do this to us). So fellow brothers, if you experience some kind of sexism, this is double pain for us...first, the misgendering...second, the sexism part. This is very bad for us, but always stand up and rebel no matter what.

Ladies here....I know you too experience sexism and creepiness and transmisogyny. I'm tremendously sorry. As a man, I am growing up to be more mature and respectful of all women. I don't want any woman to feel uncomfortable around me.

Non-binary people...no matter what your identity is, you too can experience sexism, discomfort, misgendering, harassment....I know this world is very binary, but I'm sure the world will be more accepting of all identities. It just takes time.

TL;DR: a guys did something I didn't like and acted pervy, so I beat one up and threatened the men in the room.

Moderator edit: Please be aware of the language used in posts.

[FTMDiaries]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

Like you, I've had guys pick me up, touch me inappropriately & force other indignities on me, especially back when I presented as female. It's humiliating and it made me feel threatened, disenfranchised, emasculated and very, very angry. It's especially difficult if you're a trans man, because your natural discomfort with being touched without your consent can be made much worse by the knowledge that the perpetrator is probably doing something to you that they'd never even consider doing to a cis guy.

So I can understand & appreciate how you felt in the moment; I've been there before myself. I don't blame you for hitting him after he picked you up; I would probably have done the same and he would've deserved it. So up to that point, you have my full support. He needs to understand that he doesn't have the right to manhandle people without their permission. In my country (UK) what he did is classified as an assault and you would've been within your rights to call the police. So yes, he definitely overstepped the mark and deserved some sort of comeback from you, and it's great that you didn't just sit there and take it.

But picking up bottles and threatening to smash them on people's heads, or threatening a group of people with a knife - actually threatening to kill people - is not the way to deal with this problem. Your host would've been within her rights to call the police and tell them someone is threatening to kill everyone there, and you'd be sitting in jail right now. You'd get in a heck of a lot more trouble for threatening actual bodily harm on people than that douche would be in for simply picking you up. Acting aggressively doesn't earn you any respect from other people: in fact, they're more likely to think you're a bit unstable.

The douche in question definitely acted inappropriately and is 100% at fault for causing the situation. But part of learning how to be a man is learning how to cope with that natural masculine aggression and how to use it appropriately. Yes, you attain respect by standing up for yourself - but standing up for yourself does not need to include threats of violence against other people. You'll be respected far more for restraining that anger and turning it into something productive rather than something destructive; being assertive rather than being aggressive. You've said this has happened before, and T can make your aggressive tendencies much worse, so if you're planning on taking T I strongly recommend you work on your anger management first so that you can learn the skills you'll need to act more appropriately the next time that red mist descends.

You probably had plenty of people on your side when you spoke up for yourself, and even when you initially hit out at him. But once your reaction escalated to knife-brandishing, death threats etc. I daresay everyone at that house became alarmed and perhaps frightened of you. Please don't mistake that for respect. Obviously you don't owe the guys who did this to you any apology: quite the reverse! Do I think you should apologise to the people there? I don't know; there isn't enough info here. But I recommend you should definitely apologise to your friend for losing your temper at her house and threatening her guests, and explain why you felt it was necessary at the time.

TL;DR: great that you stood up for yourself, but you need to work on your anger management.

[JMJW]

I can understand getting angry with all of them actually, because they didn't kick him out way earlier. Firstly your friend kept bugging you to go and doesn't take no for an answer - I've got a friend like that and it sucks. If you don't want to go somewhere, people should understand there's a reason for it. Even if it's just based on intuition. But she knew enough to give you an out, to go home when you wanted. What I don't understand is why you didn't take it? The very first time he acts like a PUA creep, get up, say you want to go home, and walk away. None of you have to be there.  The fact that everyone can see that he ruined it for you, and you left early, if they invite him again, I'd be surprised, and you'd know then none of them are worth your time.

So not yo yo yo calm down, more like yo yo yo goodbye.

[SadieBlake]

Violence is never an acceptable remedy.

[TransAm]

Violence is never an acceptable remedy.

I disagree to an extent. Though I can see where he got wrapped up in the emotions of the moment, holding everyone at the party at knifepoint wasn't necessary.
Hitting the guy in the first place, though? Justified. I've encountered several guys that couldn't/wouldn't take verbal hints and forced it to escalate to the point of requiring physical intervention.
When I was in MS, there was this guy that thought it was super fun to physically mess with girls (pulling them into his lap, slapping butts, random hugging, hair pulling, head slapping, etc.). I happened to be sitting in front of him one day at a stage band performance while we were preparing to go up on stage. I felt something slap the back of my head and when I turned around, he was sitting there chuckling. I calmly told him to stop.
He did it again much harder. I turned around, narrowed my eyes, and told him to knock it off again.
I felt another slap. This time it was so hard I saw stars.
I whipped around, grabbed him by the collar to pull him close and punched him repeatedly square in the nose until blood started flying. I threw him back down in his chair and he started bawling as his nose was definitely broken.
Fifteen girls came up to me that had never spoken to me before and high-fived me/thanked me repeatedly. That dude never pulled that **** with anyone after that. He ended up going to my HS and every time he saw me, he (and his crooked nose) made a huge berth around me or turned to go the opposite direction.

I will never regret doing that.

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

Like you, I've had guys pick me up, touch me inappropriately & force other indignities on me, especially back when I presented as female. It's humiliating and it made me feel threatened, disenfranchised, emasculated and very, very angry. It's especially difficult if you're a trans man, because your natural discomfort with being touched without your consent can be made much worse by the knowledge that the perpetrator is probably doing something to you that they'd never even consider doing to a cis guy.

So I can understand & appreciate how you felt in the moment; I've been there before myself. I don't blame you for hitting him after he picked you up; I would probably have done the same and he would've deserved it. So up to that point, you have my full support. He needs to understand that he doesn't have the right to manhandle people without their permission. In my country (UK) what he did is classified as an assault and you would've been within your rights to call the police. So yes, he definitely overstepped the mark and deserved some sort of comeback from you, and it's great that you didn't just sit there and take it.

But picking up bottles and threatening to smash them on people's heads, or threatening a group of people with a knife - actually threatening to kill people - is not the way to deal with this problem. Your host would've been within her rights to call the police and tell them someone is threatening to kill everyone there, and you'd be sitting in jail right now. You'd get in a heck of a lot more trouble for threatening actual bodily harm on people than that douche would be in for simply picking you up. Acting aggressively doesn't earn you any respect from other people: in fact, they're more likely to think you're a bit unstable.

The douche in question definitely acted inappropriately and is 100% at fault for causing the situation. But part of learning how to be a man is learning how to cope with that natural masculine aggression and how to use it appropriately. Yes, you attain respect by standing up for yourself - but standing up for yourself does not need to include threats of violence against other people. You'll be respected far more for restraining that anger and turning it into something productive rather than something destructive; being assertive rather than being aggressive. You've said this has happened before, and T can make your aggressive tendencies much worse, so if you're planning on taking T I strongly recommend you work on your anger management first so that you can learn the skills you'll need to act more appropriately the next time that red mist descends.

You probably had plenty of people on your side when you spoke up for yourself, and even when you initially hit out at him. But once your reaction escalated to knife-brandishing, death threats etc. I daresay everyone at that house became alarmed and perhaps frightened of you. Please don't mistake that for respect. Obviously you don't owe the guys who did this to you any apology: quite the reverse! Do I think you should apologise to the people there? I don't know; there isn't enough info here. But I recommend you should definitely apologise to your friend for losing your temper at her house and threatening her guests, and explain why you felt it was necessary at the time.

TL;DR: great that you stood up for yourself, but you need to work on your anger management.

^ that, though. Don't ever be afraid to stand up for yourself but know where to draw the line.

[SadieBlake]

Sorry, I can't agree.

With situational awareness it's generally possible to stay out of the trouble in the first place.

I know plenty of ways to hurt people, but I'm far more proud of having managed to never use them.

More to the point once you're exchanging blows who started it is more or less beside the point. You might just as easily have taken on someone who could have killed you, you could have faced felony assault charges etc etc.

[FTMax]

I'm sorry you had these experiences, but I think you need to have better control over your emotions and your reactions to people. Reacting the way that you do will most likely not result in any kind of positive change.

[Beth Andrea]

The perv was 100% in the wrong, as were the other (alleged) men AND women in the group.

What he did is called "sexual assault", and you would have been within your rights to do whatever was necessary to make him stop.

It sounds like he stopped when you told him to, but you let your anger take control. Lesson learned, maintain self-control, itll help you respond more appropriately.

[big kim]

You did right in these circumstances violence was appropriate and in proportion. I'd have done the same

[jossam]

I don't really think it classifies as sexual assault. I was just sitting on his legs even if it was against my will. But "against my will" here is what matters. He's not a friend, so it makes it even worse. I simply think you don't just pick up someone off a chair and make them sit on your legs, especially when he repeated this a few times and I just said no or ignored him.

I know I have anger issues but I don't think I should fix them. I don't mind being intimidating when needed. I never physically attack or seriously threat people for no reason. I shouldn't be the one controlling my anger. It should be other people controlling their urges to cross people's boundaries.

I did indeed feel emasculated when he sent kisses or stuff like that. It's weird, because I have a male appearance and always lived as my true self.

I still don't know what presenting male or female means. Do you mean appearance or what? I'm not out to everyone in the sense that I don't tell everyone I'm a trans guy or tell everyone to use male pronouns, but I've always lived as....my real self, a man. I wouldn't know how to live as anything else  other than male.

To the user that said T can make my violent tendencies worse. I'm no expert, but I don't think aggressiveness largely depends on testosterone. There are too many factors and too many things that influence the human mind that I don't feel like "blaming" one hormone only. What if it will actually make me less angry? (Because itof will bring happiness that I'm finally transitioning, feeling more at ease with my body, etc). But yeah, I do plan to take T. I will do it as soon as possible. I don't know when, but I know I will. I chose to.

I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and anxiety (pathological anxiety of course). I'm on medication. I was on a small dose of xanax before that dinner thing and the attack. I should have been calmer, but no, I lost my mind. I lost my mind because I could not stand my personal space being invaded like that by a stupid classmate. I did not tolerate the "pervert" joke either.

People....not saying picking knives and glass bottles is ok. It's not. But standing up for yourself when someone does something against your will, ignoring your rejection, is absolutely a MUST DO. Please just don't sit and ignore it because some people would interpret it as either weakness or agreement.

[Jacqueline]

 

This topic is currently locked for Review. It has brought up some concerns about the use of violence. It is currently being discussed and will be decided by administration level staffers.

[Jacqueline]

Unless directed later to unlock this topic, it is staying locked. However, I am including part of a private message I received from jossam. I think it fair since he started the thread and it is locked to include this as a counterpoint.

I just wanted to clarify that I don't condone the use of violence and my original post did not aim at promoting violence. I just talked about an event that happened to me and the way I reacted. My "stand up for yourself" message did not mean "be violent", in fact, I said people should not react the way I did but "tell, rebel, walk out" as I wrote in the first post. I stated many times in the thread that threatening to kill people is not right, not even if it's just a "heat of the moment" thing. It's not right and my posts did not condone it. If this is the message that people got from my words then I am tremendously sorry and I would like to clarify.

I noticed that some people said they agree with the violence I used. I would appreciate it if you or other staff members could let me add a message or copy this one I'm sending to you, because I don't want to come across as someone who thinks threatening people like that is justifiable. While I think reacting physically is ok and justifiable when done for self-defense, I don't think disproportionate reactions and violence are ok.
No one got physically hurt at the party, but it still doesn't make my violent actions okay.

I was very angry while writing that post, which also explains why I forgot to self-censor and get rid of the foul language and I apologized for this.

That said, I apologize for stirring up controversy on the forum. All I can say is I simply described what happened to me including my reactions and some people went too far saying they condone violence. Other users said I should manage my anger in better ways and they're absolutely right. I'll work on that.

Greetings,
Jossam