The nightmare of electrolysis

[jentay1367]

Hope this is the right forum for this..If not, I apologize and would the mod's please move it. I posted this inanother forum on another site but just didn't get much feedback...so I'll ask you guys for help.

Hi Girls,

     Thought I'd bring this up with you guys that have finished Electro. I've had the hardest time trying to understand how this hair growth thing works. I had originally thought I had prepared myself psychologically for this but I find it causes me more dysphoria than almost any other single thing. I'm over 80 hours in (nowhere close to first clearing) and when I let the hair on my face grow to any appreciable length, it almost looks and feels like nothing has been done at all. My tech (whom I love dearly by the way) has told me that I simply don't have enough time on the table regardless of my hours spent there(6 months). That because of facial hair growth patterns, it's difficult to see any appreciable difference at this stage. I guess I'm a little dubious. Maybe just frustrated. So I wanted to ask you guys that are further down the path than me, what were your experiences? Am I getting myself worked up over nothing? Cuz' sometimes I feel like I'm throwing good money after bad and spinning my wheels. I'd love to have some anecdotal information from the Ladies who have been there, done that and got the t-shirt. I'd really like to know that I'm moving forward and not just wasting my time. My Tech has been at this for 25 years and is no stranger to TS Women. She's stated that the next 80 hours I'll see a huge difference. Have you guys found this to be true? Anyone have anything that may set my mind at ease somewhat? Or should I move on and find someone else. Thanks in advance for any and all info.  As an aside, the hair on my face is all white, so Laser is not in the cards for me at all. Best, Lisa

[Ms Grace]

Which type of electro are you having? Galvanic or thermolysis. Galvanic is usually multi probe while thermolysis is single needle. Personally I swear by galvanic...almost 100% permanently cleared after about 130 hours (over two years), but I didn't have a particularly thick or heavy beard to start with. I know of people still going with thermolysis hundreds of hours later.

Some of it is also down to the skill of the tech, if they only ever fire up the machine for you and old granny chin hairs then they may not have the skill to deal with full beard removal. My tech has many trans clients over many years and thousands of hours so she really knows how to get in there as effectively and efficiently as possible.

[Michelle_P]

At this point your tech has zapped a whole bunch of hairs that were in their mature, active Anagen phase.  In the natural cycle many of those would have gone dormant (Anagen phase lasts 2-8 years, often longer!), and meanwhile, a bunch of hairs that were "resting" in catagen phase (3-4 weeks) or telogen phase (9 months) have woken up, repopulating your beard.

Annoying, isn't it?

The good news is that there will be fewer and fewer waking hairs, as your tech is zapping the waking ones as soon as they mature to the point where electrolysis works on them.  You very likely have visible thinning, but there are still enough hairs everywhere to feel like 'Beard!' to your touch.

My electrolyst did something interesting.  She cleared the chin and lower lip first, and then has re-cleared them periodically so that at the 6 month point I don't feel any hair there at all.  (Feels wonderful, by the way.)  She has been expanding the cleared area every week, as well as spending time on a pass over the upper lip to slowly thin out the hair.  She also regularly 'sweeps' for black hairs and zaps all of those (not many, or I'd be doing laser), which reduces the beard shadow, particularly on the upper lip.

I know, frustrating, but you're about to start the part where significant changes should occur. 

Hugs!
- Michelle


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dena]

Using the blend, it took around 200 hours to clear my face. It wasn't until I was about 2/3s of the way into treatment that I really noticed much of a difference. In the last third, I was skipping appointments because there just wasn't enough growth in half a week for a full hour appointment. I also had my eyebrows shaped so that added some time to the package. My treatment was not concentrated in any one location in order to distribute the discomfort. Had the work been concentrated in one location, I would have seen results sooner.

[LizK]

I have this weird response to Electrolysis...I hate it and don't want any more. Having said that I have another 10 hours booked to finish off my first total clearance which I expect will only be another 2-3 hours. I have facial injections which not only deal with my pain but mean that the Electrologist stops only to adjust her position and not because of my discomfort. I found when I was not comfortable I may well be on the table for an hour but she was unable to really get going because I was in pain and moving around...She uses the blend method so different current for different type of hair.

The other advantage with good anaesthetics is not only can they work super fast they can turn the electricity up and effect no only those in the growth stage but dormant as well. Each hair should just slide out when zapped you should not be able to feel any pulling tugging or they will regrow...

Now Regrowth V new Growth

Re growth cannot happen if the hair is taken correctly...this mean the lye is formed and the follicle is killed. It is impossible for this hair to come back however the  follicles beside the one taken that were dormant may now come through. We have several "layers" of hair follicles and until each and every one of those is killed it will grow. YMMV is the biggest rule here

I have sparse thick white hairs along with plenty of dark ones. I had my 14th laser treatment 2 weeks ago and I may have 100 black hairs on my face and next in total now...if that and I have another laser  session in about 3 weeks. Laser has been the only thing that keeps me sane, it has reduced my beard substantially.

I don't know why but I still have bald spots from the very first hairs taken during Electrolysis over 15 months ago...not all of them are still bald but at least half. I had my top lip cleared over a period of 4 x 1 hour sessions all with dental injections. However I now know how rough my 25 year experienced veteran Electrologist was,  from what I can tell she was very rough despite having the experience and supposed knowledge so I expect to get some regrowth in that area.(nothing yet after 12 weeks) The person I am using now is the person who originally started me off and while expensive in comparison, her techniques is far different and to my mind far better. She does far less damage to my skin and the last session she ran out of viable hairs to take in the numb area. She thinks she will have me at maintenance stage by the time I go fulltime in April. She is a strong believer in laser for the right people

One of the big things with laser that is so important is to leave the hair on your face alone and "let it drop out on its own" It will come back if you try and "slide" the hairs out. If you rub your finger/ exfoliate over the treated area and the hair pops up and out without any pulling, that seems to be OK. If when you slide out the dead hair after laser and it isn't dead yet, you actually leave the smallest piece alive and it will grow back...had you left that hair it would have died properly and not come back. This took me quite some time to learn and accept. I really didn't think I was doing any harm and I guess about 60 % of the time I wasn't ..its the other 40% I need to worry about. I really like getting in there sliding out the dead black hairs after 7- 10 days post treatment. I really was hindering my progress and only did it a couple of times... I had no idea that this would happen with laser...I really couldn't see how until it was pointed out to me it only requires the tinniest amount of tissues still attached to the hair even though it had appeared to "slide" out with no trouble and it would come back.

Anyway I hope some of my experience helps.

Liz

[jentay1367]

Thanks you guys. All of this really helps put my mind at ease. My Tech has been dealing with TS women for 25 years. We switch back and forth between blend and galvanic. All single needle stuff with an older machine with the foot pedal. She has become a dear friend in a very short amount of time. The reality is, where I live, my options are limited. Very limited. Add to that, she charges 50 dollars an hour. Cheap in the world of electrology. I suspect a younger tech with a newer machine could and would be more efficient, but at generally twice the cost or more, I doubt she would be twice as effective. So based on what you guys are telling me, I guess after my 88 hours, the proof should really begin to show now in the next 60 hours or so. I hope so because even at 50 bucks an hour, 140 hours is still 7 grand. That's a chunk of change no matter how you slice it. Apparently, since I'm quite fair, my tech tells me I'm quite sensitive and she's afraid to crank up the machine for fear of doing damage. That's fine as I really don't want any more damage than has already occurred over years of abuse and a youth with acne problems. I will soldier on and hope for the best. I suppose if I get to 150 hours and am not seeing some serious results, I'll have to bid her adieu and find an alternative. Hope it doesn't come to that. It does seem it wouldn't hurt to slow the process as if I understand you guys correctly, the phases of growth simply preclude me from doing this as quickly as I'd originally anticipated. That's fine......it is all white. As I pointed out to someone before regarding the beard, I'm kinda' like Santa in drag. So I guess I'll do something I'm not accustomed to nor good at.....get patient. Thanks for the answers so far and if anyone feels they have anything helpful or germane to add, I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks again....Lisa

[Dena]

My electrolysis was done with what would now be considered a 40 year old machine and my sessions ran $60 and hour would would be about $180 an hour in todays money. I don't have delicate skin but my operator was concerned about scaring as she had it happen when she was treated. The galvanic method is the original form of treatment dating way back and the blend was relatively new when I was treated.

This is why I always recommend that one of the first things you start on is hair removal. It takes so long and it's difficult to pass when you have several days of growth. I was lucky that I had around a year and a half of treatment - 2 hours a week before I was forced into full time early.

[Sophia Sage]

I had 300 hours (at $60/hr) of blend to get 90-95% cleared way back when I transitioned; I plucked about 10 mins per day after that.  According to my current electrologist ($100/hr) who is touching me up, it appears many of the neck hairs were only partially treated due to improper insertions, and the too-long vellus hairs were never touched at all. 

The number one thing you need to determine when having electrolysis is if you can feel the hair being tugged out.  If you can feel that, the hair hasn't actually been killed or treated at all.  But even if you feel nothing, that doesn't mean it's been fully destroyed. In additional to destroying the papilla (the bulb and blood supply), the electrologist must also target a part of the outer root sheath called "the bulge" -- the bulge contains stem cells for creating a new terminal hair. 

Another thing to consider is that testosterone in your system can activate new terminal hair growth. 

If you're having galvanic or blend, you should be holding a metal anode, otherwise the electrical current isn't being completed.  IIRC, it takes up to 30 seconds with galvanic to create enough lye to kill the hair outright (which is why galvanic is typically done multi-needle), and about 5 to 7 seconds with blend.  Thermolysis is the fastest, but requires the most operator skill to done effectively and safely.

Here's a great paper by Michael Bono to read on the subject: http://www.electrology.com/pdf/Hair-and-Skin-Mike-Bono.pdf

I now feel that my initial electrolysis consisted of a lot of somewhat chronic undertreatment, given how long it took, and how long others going to that person took.  At least, however, that meant there was also no skin damage, which is much more likely with bad thermolysis. 

[Ms Grace]

All single needle stuff with an older machine with the foot pedal.

That explains why it's taking a while. Galvanic is a slow process anyway. My tech uses the multi-probe - 32 needles means 32 follicles can be dealt with in the time it might take to do 5 or so with the single probe.

But yeah, it takes time regardless and it probably is a lot further along - compared to when you first started - than you realise.

[LizK]

In additional to destroying the papilla (the bulb and blood supply), the electrologist must also target a part of the outer root sheath called "the bulge" -- the bulge contains stem cells for creating a new terminal hair. 

It is this very "bulb" that makes hair implants possible. It is the stem cells contained with that bulb that activate in the same way on your head as it does to stop the hair from dying in the first place.

The woman I see now for Electrolysis supports exactly what you are saying and that she tries to have a  "one zap one follicle kill" but she is quick to say even the most skilled operator will not get a 100 % first hit kill rate without doing you skin damage. She is very conscious of scarring and the potential for it.

Liz

[stephaniec]

There is always the option hat I took. I don't even like going to get my hair cut, so I just carry around a razor and foundation. I know this sounds repugnant , but I weird any way

[jentay1367]

So much great anecdotal information. Thank you guys. It's certainly giving me some things to think about as well as some real peace of mind. I really appreciate everyone's input. Given what's been stated, it looks like I'm on the cusp of getting results.  So I'm going to carry on for another 60 hours till I hit 150 and see if I don't start seeing some serious results. If not, I guess I can lick my wounds and take a different tact.  Only thing I do know is this hair must and will die!  When.....is the only question.  Hopefully sooner than later. Your input gives me the impetus to keep pushing on with the program I'm on. You guys make me feel like the changes are just around the corner.

[SadieBlake]

$150@ for 200 hours of electrolysis??! Passing isn't worth that kind of money to me.

[Dena]

$150@ for 200 hours of electrolysis??! Passing isn't worth that kind of money to me.

It used to be that you had to be about half way through electrolysis as a requirement for surgery. Kind of a binary attitude. For me looking at it from the back side, there is nothing like not having to shave my face or go without makeup when I want and not showing any shadow.

[Sophia Sage]

$150@ for 200 hours of electrolysis??! Passing isn't worth that kind of money to me.

I spent over $75,000 back in the day on zapping, facial surgery, and bottom surgery (and yes, bottom surgery is also about passing, it facilitates passing in bed) and I'd spend twice as much today for the kind of life I've been able to live because of it.

For me, there would have been no point to transitioning without these technologies.

For me looking at it from the back side, there is nothing like not having to shave my face or go without makeup when I want and not showing any shadow.

There is nothing like running my hands over my face at any time of the day or night and not feeling any facial hair.

The feeling is glorious.

[Janes Groove]

The feeling is glorious.

Amen sister.  I have one whole cheek that, as of yesterday, is finally clear. It feels wonderful to touch. And the other one (the one farthest from her(my tech)) is almost done.  I've been at it for about 9 mos. at 1 hour a week with the single needle thing.  I had kind of a scraggly beard to begin with but at my first appt, my electrologist estimated about two years.  My face is getting really thin and my electrologist says I'm, "doing really well."    My neck and throat is next and it's dense. And VERY sensitive.   This last month I have been trying to do 2 hour sessions, but 2 hours is BRUTAL.  I'm taking it easy next week with a one hour appt.  I want to be done. Transition isn't easy.  But today I was shopping with my sister and a man at the store asked if "You 2 ladies need any help?"  That one sweet moment was worth it all.

[LizK]

Amen sister.  I have one whole cheek that, as of yesterday, is finally clear. It feels wonderful to touch. And the other one (the one farthest from her(my tech)) is almost done.  I've been at it for about 9 mos. at 1 hour a week with the single needle thing.  I had kind of a scraggly beard to begin with but at my first appt, my electrologist estimated about two years.  My face is getting really thin and my electrologist says I'm, "doing really well."    My neck and throat is next and it's dense. And VERY sensitive.   This last month I have been trying to do 2 hour sessions, but 2 hours is BRUTAL.  I'm taking it easy next week with a one hour appt.  I want to be done. Transition isn't easy.  But today I was shopping with my sister and a man at the store asked if "You 2 ladies need any help?"  That one sweet moment was worth it all.

Since having surgery the other day I haven't really been up to shaving but there are great smooth patches along my jawline that feel great...I estimate 4 hrs for the final full clearance of all "grey posts" yahooooooo so by mid feb we should be onto the second and easier clearance with new growth from dormant follicles

[pretty pauline]

But today I was shopping with my sister and a man at the store asked if "You 2 ladies need any help?"  That one sweet moment was worth it all.

Absolutely worth it, electrolysis is a nightmare, probably the worse part of my transition, but I just kept telling myself at the time ''no gain without pain''

[Maybebaby56]

$150@ for 200 hours of electrolysis??! Passing isn't worth that kind of money to me.

I rather admire you for that.  I am one scared little rabbit when it comes to social presentation, or at least I was.  Passing means everything to me.  To me, it is my only protection against insults, perceived or real, embarrassment, or possibly being physically assaulted.

I spent over $75,000 back in the day on zapping, facial surgery, and bottom surgery (and yes, bottom surgery is also about passing, it facilitates passing in bed) and I'd spend twice as much today for the kind of life I've been able to live because of it.

For me, there would have been no point to transitioning without these technologies.

There is nothing like running my hands over my face at any time of the day or night and not feeling any facial hair.

The feeling is glorious.

I quite agree, on all counts.  I feel blessed that I have been able to afford these interventions that many cannot.  My electrolysis/laser sessions were about 60 hours for a full clearing @ $128/hr, so there is $7000.  FFS cost me over $35,000.  I will be paying off my loan for the next two years.  SRS will be covered by insurance, or that would be another $25,000 or so. I will also need hair transplants, which will be $7000, and if I want breast augmentation... well, we will see.

Absolutely worth it, electrolysis is a nightmare, probably the worse part of my transition, but I just kept telling myself at the time ''no gain without pain''

That kind of sums it up.

With kindness,

Terri

[SadieBlake]

Quote from: SadieBlake on Yesterday at 10:41:08 pm
$150@ for 200 hours of electrolysis??! Passing isn't worth that kind of money to me.

I spent over $75,000 back in the day on zapping, facial surgery, and bottom surgery (and yes, bottom surgery is also about passing, it facilitates passing in bed) and I'd spend twice as much today for the kind of life I've been able to live because of it.

For me, there would have been no point to transitioning without these technologies.

Quote from: Dena on Yesterday at 11:11:21 pm
For me looking at it from the back side, there is nothing like not having to shave my face or go without makeup when I want and not showing any shadow.

There is nothing like running my hands over my face at any time of the day or night and not feeling any facial hair.

The feeling is glorious.

Yes, I totally get that and sorry if my one-sentence response sounded dismissive, that wasn't intended however it was late here and I was more than half asleep.

Here's my context: engineer working to change my career to (necessarily) starving artist. I count life as time to dream of new things to do and find time and means to execute them. The list will always grow faster than my time to execute so I count every hour as even more precious than my limited means.

My budget for transition cash out amounts to about $6000, the greatest part of that by far is getting myself and my gf to SF for the surgery. A grand total of about $400 will go to copays and uninsured expenses (nearly half of that is for the 2nd therapist referral letter). Those costs are all pretty modest because I have really good insurance and keeping that in place for the year of RLE+scheduling GCS will come to another $5k compared to what I'd switch to if not transitioning.

The other side is the prospect of 200 hours plus all the time getting to & from brings it to 400 hrs, the equivalent of 2½ months of working time. This just isn't time I want to spend on my back and talking to my electrologist (she's great in small doses).

I fully celebrate your choice to pass, I think passing is fundamentally about aesthetics. I still don't think my look even if I spent all that time would ever get much past "handsome woman" and I'll admit that this is a fair description of my mother and that abusive person isn't someone I want to be reminded of when I look in the mirror.

I've said in enough other posts so it should be no surprise, I think my best look may be described as a very femme person - dare I say I love presenting as high-femme. Albeit balding some and with a close cropped beard.

Maybe this will change someday but for now this is where I'm aiming in my transition.