Discrimination/Jealousy within our own community?

[MissGendered]

Absolutely.  Amusingly enough, that means all my company in social environments outside the trans social support group (all not passing) are ciswomen. 

Passing transwomen with whom I have worked or have known in group therapy don't even acknowledge my existence.  Not really surprising, though.  I'm a risk.  When I get clocked, folks will also wonder about anyone I am with.  Passing transwomen don't want to lose privilege because of someone they are with.

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'



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I dated two trans girls that did not pass. Maybe it's different for me, I see myself as cis, so I dunno. One I dated for 6 months and she didn't even know I had once lived as a man, which was quite validating on an entirely different level. I did get eyed over when out with both of them, but I used those moments to build my defenses and self-confidence. It made me very aware of the cues I send out, and that voice and composure and comportment can overcome even such things as height and a bony face.

[Sophia Sage]

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'

Yup.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that, generally speaking, once someone's had all their surgeries and the physical aspect of transition is over, they tend to disappear from trans spaces altogether.  This actually makes sense to me -- and not just because it was true for me as well.  Having run the gauntlet, it's just time to move on and see what the rest of life has to offer.  There's an aspect of burnout -- the process is so life-consuming.  And the kinds of conversations transpeople have eventually tend to recur over and over again, there's only so much to talk about, and then it becomes apparent just how little people have in common except this one thing.  It's kind of a relief to leave it all behind after being immersed in it for years.

I did stay in contact with a few select woman, though, after it was all over.  Some dear friends in another part of the country, whom I still see on occasion.  And locally, one woman who was determined to live her life in the same way I was to live mine, namely with a closed narrative -- meaning we had a similar philosophical take on all this, in addition to having other things in common and just genuinely enjoying each others' company, though eventually we drifted apart -- as I moved and she got married.

[Michelle_P]

In thinking about it, folks who have truly completed their transition probably should leave the trans community and just live their lives.  Wasn't that the original goal of transition, to just be a woman?  All the energy that was devoted to transition can be redirected to new goals in their lives, to better themselves and the world around them.

We have goals in life.  When we achieve them, isn't it time to set new goals?

I suspect that transition burnout, pumping too much energy into transition to the exclusion of everything else, is a real thing.  That's part of why I've been seeking connections in the broader community, rather than sticking with strictly trans or LGBT groups. 

At the same time, I've got a strong drive to improve life for transgender folks, as I don't want anyone else to have to go through a life like mine.    Again, connecting with the broader community is important, as a transgender person. Most folks think they've never met or known a transgender person.  (In many cases, I know better. )  I'll take advantage of my decidedly obvious in-betweeny state and self-promotion instinct to make some educational noise. 

That will likely make me an outcast or pariah with some trans folks.  Seriously.  Nobody wants to be outed by association.  At the same time, I hope I really can contribute to making life better.



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[MissGendered]

Yup.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that, generally speaking, once someone's had all their surgeries and the physical aspect of transition is over, they tend to disappear from trans spaces altogether.  This actually makes sense to me -- and not just because it was true for me as well.  Having run the gauntlet, it's just time to move on and see what the rest of life has to offer.  There's an aspect of burnout -- the process is so life-consuming.  And the kinds of conversations transpeople have eventually tend to recur over and over again, there's only so much to talk about, and then it becomes apparent just how little people have in common except this one thing.  It's kind of a relief to leave it all behind after being immersed in it for years.

Yes, this is also very, very true. So true, in fact, that I was not willing to have those conversations at all, even with the trans girl I dated last year. I was ok with listening and watching her go through her issues, and being supportive, but I just could not unwind the clock and re-live my transition with her, I was done with all that, and it was very nice to be able to not have to participate any more.

In fact, I suppose I wouldn't have ever come back to a trans space like this, had I not outed myself to my now ex-boyfriend and been rejected as a result. The mental and emotional anguish from being seen as 'less than cis' was overwhelming, and I just needed a place to vent that pain where I knew others would understand. I am glad, though, that I did come back, I have learned so much more than I bargained for, about others, and especially, about myself and the remaining work I need to do to undo my past more completely.

I used to think I couldn't ever consider another transitioned person as a life partner, because of my selfish need to insulate myself from the bad feelings of my pre-transitional life. But since being here, I have had a change of heart, perhaps a burst of personal growth, and I suddenly see that as a welcome option. Funny, how we change over time. Experience and emotional expansion can open doors we once thought closed and nailed shut.

So, yes, I do realize that this is also a form of discrimination within 'our community'. Guilty as charged.

We live and learn. Thank goodness!

Missy

[Cailan Jerika]

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'

That's not true. A lot of larger framed women, those who aren't particularly feminine and may have masculine features, DO worry about "failing to pass." CIS women 5'9" and taller who have a stocky or square frame, those who aren't supermodel types, tend to worry about being mistaken for non-passing transwomen a lot. And when that mistake does happen, it's humiliating and devastating, a blow to the feminine ego that eats at you. I know, because that was me from age 15 until the time I realized I was bigender, and it's a common subject discussed between CIS women of that body type.

[Michelle_P]

That's not true. A lot of larger framed women, those who aren't particularly feminine and may have masculine features, DO worry about "failing to pass." CIS women 5'9" and taller who have a stocky or square frame, those who aren't supermodel types, tend to worry about being mistaken for non-passing transwomen a lot. And when that mistake does happen, it's humiliating and devastating, a blow to the feminine ego that eats at you. I know, because that was me from age 15 until the time I realized I was bigender, and it's a common subject discussed between CIS women of that body type.

Interesting.  I was unaware that there were ciswomen who had felt the hammer blows of misgendering.

I know I won't pass, and I'm resigned to having to deal with the constant misgendering.  It does hurt, a lot, but that's something I have to put up with if I am to deal with my dysphoria and be my authentic self.  It's a big factor in my decision to just be out there and make some noise for decent treatment. 

I don't know what could be done for ciswomen who have to deal with the devastating blow of being taken as a transwoman like me.  I wish our culture wasn't so damn judgmental and caste-oriented, but it is.


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[Mia]

I've been ripped by gender-fluid trans people because I am binary. Since I aim to "go all the way," I am somehow abandoning trans people and I am an elitist. Quite frankly that line of thinking sickens me, I felt like a mob of people who are "proud to identify as trans," as they put it, set upon me to prove that I'm a terrible traitor for wanting to pass and disappear as a woman. They want to steal the community from me.

They also attacked my ability to obtain hormones and surgeries, without a shred of evidence as to how exactly I obtained my surgeries or my hormones. I will work and pay for whatever it takes for me to find my peace and happiness, for all I know these people are working part time jobs and driving cars they can't afford while they whine about what they can't have. That's not my style, it has never been.

On the one hand, I stand united with all trans people, and I always will because all of our experiences are similar. But to counter these people's bias, I wonder aloud who really travels the easier path - someone who doesn't worry about passing but endures endless discrimination, or someone who lives in fear and suffers through financial and physical agony along a very uncertain road to completion?

[RobynD]

Intuitively i know that all communities and sectors of society have sub-groups that do get a long, that fight and bicker over petty things, that seek to divide themselves into "higher and lower" value etc. This is part of humanity's selfish and inhumane nature.

Personally, i have not seen a lot of this myself. This is perhaps in part, because i don't hang out with a lot of trans folks. It's not purposeful that i do not, it is just how my life has unfolded socially. I'd like to go to support groups etc, but can never seem to find the time. I do go to pride and I do casually know a few trans people, and i have never felt hostility or discrimination of any type.

Also the whole " women are competitive" and thus mean to one another i do not see at all, which sort of confuses me because i see people say that online a lot and you see it as part of entertainment and elsewhere. All the women in my social circle are accepting and kind people, otherwise i would likely not hang out with them. In casual social contact with women in my business, at venues like bars and concerts, i don't see it either. At least outwardly i see generally pleasant people. Behind one's back? who knows and I really don't care much about that.

I asked my wife about this fairly recently and her opinion was basically; women can be mean and self-centered sure, all people can, but i don't see any specific sort of treatment that is among women"

[Tessa James]

This phenomena of creating a "circular firing squad" bedevils all kinds of groups and is, of course, not unique to our community.  There may always be someone who judges themselves superior to you and I.  Acting on our judgmental attitudes is even more pernicious.

It can be especially hurtful to be part of a reviled, hated and marginalized group only to be shredded by one who consider themselves to be more transgender than you or I.  One of my worst public experiences was being dressed down by another transgender woman who critiqued my presentation as unacceptably male in her opinion.  The funny thing is that she felt she was doing me and the trans community a favor!  Yup, a foolish consistency is more highly valued than diversity by some folks, so get in line for my class on proper deportment.

Still, this is part of our currently reality.  I was reminded that I can not stay in support group mode or be surrounded only by well wishers without furthering the concept of living in an unrealistic bubble. 

How do we change this?  How do we, as a community and as an individual, really welcome new voices and ideas.  How do we celebrate and honor diversity and inclusion?  How do we draw that bigger circle that brings us all together?  How do we further awareness without being seen as a little different.

I get it and have also experienced the OMG experience of a trans person who I find uncomfortably dissonant with their expressed gender identity.  I know those are my fears and stereotypes at work and I want to turn that around.  The first notable time I saw a person that appeared male with a full beard and wearing a dress was about 1975 at an LGBTQ event.  I loved their bravery and unique declaration of personal freedom.  Decades later as i sought to improve my own congruent appearance I had to stifle the urge to suggest a newbie shave their chest before wearing a dress.  Suddenly I was about to considering myself some judge for other trans people.

I guess this is yet another opportunity to challenge ourselves and be the change we want to see in the world.

[KathyLauren]

I guess I am lucky.  I am aware that discrimination occurs within the trans community, but I have not encountered it.  If it happens on this forum, it must be rare.  I don't browse all the subforums, so perhaps it occurs in forums I don't read regularly.  I suspect it is less common here than in other places on the Internet.

In real life, most of the trans people I have met are in the support group I attend weekly.  The group policy is that there is no right or wrong way to be trans, and the policy is announced regularly and enforced by the moderators.  To be honest, there has been little need for enforcement.  It is a good group.

[Kylo]

Yep, It's pretty obvious most of the time. As much as there is a community, there is bigotry, hate, jealousy, and people who want to make sure you know you don't belong, for whatever reasons

[HappyMoni]

I guess I will add my two cents and maybe a little of my own prejudice. I don't think jealousy is a problem. I see people I am jealous of all the time. I get jealous of those who have surgery or look like this or like that. It is a natural emotion and although it is not one of my better qualities I don't deny it. I think the problem is more one of respect. If I am jealous of someone and because of it, I act like a jerk to that person, that is the problem. If I act like I am better than someone else based on looks or trans philosophy, it is not cool at all.
Sounds okay so far, but this is where I might get myself in hot water. I am not a fan of a show like RuPaul's Drag Show. People who like that type of entertainment, well that is there choice. I would not treat someone mean who likes it or does it. It bothers me for one reason. Trans people (until maybe last year) are seen on TV like almost never. I think the show portrays an already misunderstood minority as a caricature of who we really are. It shows an extreme minority of the minority as being typical of the group. Maybe this is based on a misunderstanding on my part. Trans people are fighting for respect. Maybe when we are seen as real, caring, feeling people by the general public we will stop being murdered.
(That realness is not about any particular look in my opinion.)
Monica

[Devlyn]

I don't think Drag Kings and Queens are that much of a minority, and  in any event, they are part of our community with all of its beautiful diversity.

Hugs, Devlyn

[frnkierondthedysphoria]

Oh yeah that happens a lot, especially in the tumblr trans community. They call themselves  'truscum' or 'transmedicalists' and bash everyone who disagrees with them, isn't binary, doesn't pass or can't/won't transition how they want them to. It makes me feel horrible about myself

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[SailorMars1994]

I guess i didnt think it was so widespread

[FTMax]

Oh yeah that happens a lot, especially in the tumblr trans community. They call themselves  'truscum' or 'transmedicalists' and bash everyone who disagrees with them, isn't binary, doesn't pass or can't/won't transition how they want them to. It makes me feel horrible about myself

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As someone who considers themselves to be a transmedicalist, I would like to say that I'm sorry you've had negative interactions with people who think the same way that I do.

I think the behaviors you're describing are very unique to Tumblr where it is easy to maintain complete anonymity and have no backlash. There is a pretty peaceful coexistence (to the point that it never even comes up) in Facebook groups, ->-bleeped-<-, here, etc. and if you haven't already, I'd encourage you to branch out from Tumblr and see if the grass isn't greener elsewhere. Tumblr IMO is kind of a toxic place and I feel like I can scarcely even call it a "community".

[Jacqueline]

Hi all,

Just a few thoughts I wanted to add to this. I don't think it is just because I am staff but I would like to think we have a community here that is a little easier and more tolerant than some others. That is not to say that people don't occasionally post something that is not cool. However, the staff does try to get rid of that as quickly as possible. There is no policy or Term of Service that puts Trans binary people above or at a different level from any other flavor of trans person. Just as a reminder, if you see something you think is wrong, just click on the Report to Moderator button that appears on the lower right of every post. It will ask for a description and you just write what you think is wrong( see what I did there with the end of that sentence).

Prejudice occurs and has occurred for all time and communities. That does not make it right and people should be called out for it. At the same time, I understand and agree that for those who feel they have completed their transitions, it may be hard to stay in the community and on sites. That is why I appreciate those who have gone through so much and still help out those of us making the long, slog to our goal.

I would also like to mention that I know what Floof means talking about feeling guilty. That is something all people who are privileged should look at and find a good way to move on with. What I mean is whether it is having enough to eat, having shelter, having the money or insurance to get medical procedures done(life threatening or otherwise). There are many in the world who do not have any of these things. Live your life, do what you can for others. If you can do more, do it.  If you can't give money, volunteer. If you don't have the time, find a way to contribute, that you can afford. If you are young and none of that is possible yet, write an IOU in your calendar for 3-10 years and see if you can do something then. I think most of us here have had a lifetime(whatever age you are it is still your lifetime) of shame, guilt and pain. Just because you are able to afford procedures, clothes, wigs, therapy... to alleviate it does not make it any less real.

Sorry. My sermon is done.  I kinda feel strongly about that.

With warmth,

Joanna

[frnkierondthedysphoria]

As someone who considers themselves to be a transmedicalist, I would like to say that I'm sorry you've had negative interactions with people who think the same way that I do.

I think the behaviors you're describing are very unique to Tumblr where it is easy to maintain complete anonymity and have no backlash. There is a pretty peaceful coexistence (to the point that it never even comes up) in Facebook groups, ->-bleeped-<-, here, etc. and if you haven't already, I'd encourage you to branch out from Tumblr and see if the grass isn't greener elsewhere. Tumblr IMO is kind of a toxic place and I feel like I can scarcely even call it a "community".

Thank you for your kind words. I've met a few nice transmeds but I will agree that Tumblr is a horrible place for that kind of ideology since there will always be someone who gets carried away with their thoughts

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[Floof]

I would also like to mention that I know what Floof means talking about feeling guilty. That is something all people who are privileged should look at and find a good way to move on with. What I mean is whether it is having enough to eat, having shelter, having the money or insurance to get medical procedures done(life threatening or otherwise). There are many in the world who do not have any of these things. Live your life, do what you can for others. If you can do more, do it.  If you can't give money, volunteer. If you don't have the time, find a way to contribute, that you can afford. If you are young and none of that is possible yet, write an IOU in your calendar for 3-10 years and see if you can do something then. I think most of us here have had a lifetime(whatever age you are it is still your lifetime) of shame, guilt and pain. Just because you are able to afford procedures, clothes, wigs, therapy... to alleviate it does not make it any less real.

OMG that hit me right in the feels.. Thank you <3

[ainsley]

I am probably guilty of the discrimination, albeit not consciously intentional.  I am a very judgmental person.  I am not specifically judgmental to trans*, though.  I just am to everyone.  My wife and I can spend the entire day on the bench in a mall and judge everyone that walks by.  It is entertaining to us.  Perhaps we should not be this way...I mean, she and I are in no way without flaws. LOL  Seiously. LOL    Never the less, I think we as humans do this sort of thing instinctively, and it is not always with the forethought of how others might be hurt or harmed by it.

Having said that, I would like to add:  I absolutely LOVE RuPaul's Drag Race!!!  I used to hate it because I felt it de-legitimized trans* and our struggles for acceptance, but omg, it is so hilarious and entertaining.  No wonder RuPaul got an Emmy!!  Yep, so I do not miss an episode now...