Venting

[Donna]

Thanks hon, I will get there, just wish 'the system' wouldn't add insult to injury.
I hope not to many tears, you should save them for tears of happiness.
Of course, the quality of mercy is not strained...

Looks like you are almost two weeks now, how are you doing?

Thanks, Veda
How am I doing?
With abut 2 weeks of HRT so far, I would have to say I am very relaxed. No big physical changes other than two things "down there" smaller, and two things "up front" seem different.

[FTMax]

I was under the impression we live somewhat near each other, and I know of a local option for HRT where no therapy would be required (if I am correct about where I think you live). They also provided me with surgery referral letters free of charge after one visit each with a therapist and a psychiatrist they have on staff. Send me a PM if you'd like contact info and you're in my area (you can find it on my profile).

[Veda]

I was under the impression we live somewhat near each other, and I know of a local option for HRT where no therapy would be required (if I am correct about where I think you live). They also provided me with surgery referral letters free of charge after one visit each with a therapist and a psychiatrist they have on staff. Send me a PM if you'd like contact info and you're in my area (you can find it on my profile).

Thanks Max, I'm in the Pacific Northwest.  I'm calmed down now, still very disappointed, but I'll live.  I thank you for the offer, and If things don't improve with my provider I'll be contacting you.

For now I'm window shopping for the shoes I'll be getting, you can check out 'fashion' for my choices.  Much like earrings, shoes make it all better.

[denajtuk]

Veda,

This is to ensure you fully understand the consequences of your actions and to screen out any other mental illnesses that may confuse the issue. Please don't think I'm saying this applies to you but wouldn't you hate to take such a massive step for the wrong reason.  I was offered hormone therapy in the 90s and bottled it. I regret it now and was more worried about my parents support which wasn't there.

In essence, the therapy is there to protect you or to support you. I wish you luck in whatever choice you make.



Sent from my LG-H840 using Tapatalk

[Kylo]

I hated the thought of the "system" as well, particularly as I'm using a public one that is known for red tape and long waiting lists.

The idea of dependency on a system, on gate keepers and whether or not I would fit their criteria did make me angry and wary. But without going some back alley route there's no other way. Same as if I needed a heart transplant, I'd still have to go through their system, be on their list and jump through their hoops. We are depending on others and their technology to help us, there's no denying that.

I just figure, at least they can do these things now, and are willing to offer them here. 200 years ago it would have been a daydream, or an unsurvivable ordeal. Helps me to think of it that way. This IS cutting edge.

[Veda]

I hated the thought of the "system" as well, particularly as I'm using a public one that is known for red tape and long waiting lists.

The idea of dependency on a system, on gate keepers and whether or not I would fit their criteria did make me angry and wary. But without going some back alley route there's no other way. Same as if I needed a heart transplant, I'd still have to go through their system, be on their list and jump through their hoops. We are depending on others and their technology to help us, there's no denying that.

I just figure, at least they can do these things now, and are willing to offer them here. 200 years ago it would have been a daydream, or an unsurvivable ordeal. Helps me to think of it that way. This IS cutting edge.

It does seem like jumping through hoops, even more it's having to fit into a cookie-cutter system.  I think the biggest problem I have is having to be diagnosed with 'Gender Dysphoria' in order to receive medication.  It has the stigma of 'mental disorder' which of course immediately puts a preconception on ones general mental health.  Of course there are instances where that is the case, and therapy has a clear benefit, it just should not be assumed as the general diagnosis for all gender variant people.

As a matter of fact I've been thinking of how to allow for recognition without the stigma, and would love to see more accurate terms adopted within the medical community; 'Gender Variant', 'Androgynous' and 'Gynandrous', 'Polar' and 'Non-Polar'...

So I would be recognized as 'Gender Variant, Non-Polar, Androgynous'; 'Non-Polar' because I don't want SRS, 'Androgynous' because I was born with male genitalia but am actually female and Gender Variant because it recognizes who I am as a healthy and natural part of humanity.

I know it is a wordy naming convention and redefines both androgyny and gynandry, but may work in the medical community by providing a broader definition and by distancing gender identity from 'mental disorder':

[patrick1967]

I got lucky with an informed consent practice near me, so other than my initial screening as I said, i have not had to undergo extended therapy. I imagine I will feel very differently when I have to play the game to get referrals for surgery, if I find myself in a financial ane insurance situation to do so. 1 year RLE (who defines the start date) at least one if not two psych letters, and proving medical necessity. I wish that the fact that we know what we need to feel whole counted for something

[MissGendered]

I wish that the fact that we know what we need to feel whole counted for something

I think that it counted for a whole lot for me with my therapists, actually, Patrick. But, it does seem that no matter how certain I was about anything, at almost every milestone moving forward, the therapy process unearthed issues I had never considered, and provided a means for processing and regaining certainty. I did only go to a gender therapist the minimum required, but I quickly segued into trauma therapy to deal with my co-morbid issues. Never once was I invalidated by either process, rather empowered to heal, and embrace my potential. It is often seen as a red flag when one approaches a reasonable dialog with a professional with contempt or apparent unwavering resistant certainty. And rightly so, for truth can stand to have a bright light lit and shone upon it. When we are more invested in circumvention, the obvious question, is why? And THAT is part of what gender therapists are there for, to help us understand our motives as well as our disinclinations. The fact that co-morbid conditions are easily confused for identity issues is common knowledge in psych circles, even if not especially common. These kinds of issues, like mental illness, or buried childhood trauma, are the most likely issues to be unacknowledged, or buried, in those that seek circumvention. It is believed that it is better to slow down all transitions rather than let any one go forward based on non-gender identity causations, since these are the people at greatest risk. I think of it as being like the American ideal that it is better that 20 guilty men go free, than one innocent man be punished. But hey, like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I went through all the hoops, even though I have no Y chromosome, because I knew I had other issues (DID, incest/rape, child abuse, CPTSD), and I wasn't afraid to dig in and be sure I wasn't about to make the biggest mistake of my life.

I only profited from the process, even when it was clunky and clumsy. The truth can bear scrutiny. That is something I try to keep in mind in all aspects of my relationship to myself.

Missy

[Veda]

It is often seen as a red flag when one approaches a reasonable dialog with a professional with contempt or apparent unwavering resistant certainty. And rightly so, for truth can stand to have a bright light lit and shone upon it... The truth can bear scrutiny...

Missy, I can't agree more with the second part, it equates with the quote I have 'fact destroys the lie'.  Therapy for the sake of dealing with personal trauma is not just good advice, it is necessary.

The first part, resistance to therapy being a 'red flag' is something that I feel needs to be corrected, or at least understood in a different light.

I'm sure you have a firm grasp of 'Cassandra Complex'.  It can take many different forms and what person can be blamed for resistance to therapy, especially when used by an 'authority' as a prerequisite to a needed treatment, and, given the fact that 'the light of truth' has been shining very clear for a very long time?  I would very seriously consider the lack of resistance to compulsory therapy more of a 'red flag'.

I have to admit I've got a case of the 'Cassandra's', as a mater of fact I almost adopted Cassandra as my own name (I still do like 'Cassie'), but I felt it was to morose.  Now when I'm feeling angry at the world I just go by 'Darth Veda'

[MissGendered]

The first part, resistance to therapy being a 'red flag' is something that I feel needs to be corrected, or at least understood in a different light.

Ironically, it is only through examination that such a red flag can be responsibly lowered, hun. Statistically, the overwhelming reality is that most people have very little understanding of the things that therapists do for a living. And I might add, assuming you have no unknown, or hidden reasons for therapeutic concern, by advocating loudly for a way to circumvent known effective protocols, you may be inadvertently be paving the way for those that do need examination to avoid it, and become part of the small percentage of transition regretters.

All our actions have consequences, and when our pride comes into play, we easily miss the bigger picture. As I said in my first response, "this is not about you"...

Well, maybe it might be, let's see what therapy unearths, since you will have to have real gender therapy to get anywhere past HRT. Maybe HRT will suffice, but for so many that believe that will be true, it truly doesn't. Only time will tell, hun, I would only ask and suggest you be open to the possibility of other possibilities than the ones you now envision. You just never know...

Missy

[Veda]

And I might add, assuming you have no unknown, or hidden reasons for therapeutic concern, by advocating loudly for a way to circumvent known effective protocols, you may be inadvertently be paving the way for those that do need examination to avoid it, and become part of the small percentage of transition regretters.

Well, maybe it might be, let's see what therapy unearths, since you will have to have real gender therapy to get anywhere past HRT. Maybe HRT will suffice, but for so many that believe that will be true, it truly doesn't. Only time will tell, hun, I would only ask and suggest you be open to the possibility of other possibilities than the ones you now envision. You just never know...

The first part is an 'appeal to consequences'.  While I'm open to the possibility of people 'working the test' I think there is a better method than compulsory therapy to help people come to terms with their true motivation, which is related to the second part...

The second part is a method of imparting doubt (insidious), by undermining self confidence through 'argument from a lack of contrary evidence'.  A better method is to impart concepts of critical thinking such as 'Do the claimant's personal beliefs and biases drive the conclusions, or vice versa?' More here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:Logic

One of the things I dislike about therapy is that it is highly subjective, of course there are methods employed by good therapists which counteract that subjectivity, but it is still a reason to be cautious.

Ultimately we have to face the idea that gender variation is in fact a natural phenomena, and there is every indication that it is common to all forms of sexually reproductive species. What method is best for determining if true gender variation is the prime motivator behind someone seeking HRT?

Personally, I go with a rational approach.

(edited to provide correct link)

[MissGendered]

The first part is an 'appeal to consequences'.  While I'm open to the possibility of people 'working the test' I think there is a better method than compulsory therapy to help people come to terms with their true motivation, which is related to the second part...

The second part is a method of imparting doubt (insidious), by undermining self confidence through 'argument from a lack of contrary evidence'.  A better method is to impart concepts of critical thinking such as 'Do the claimant's personal beliefs and biases drive the conclusions, or vice versa?' More here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:Logic

One of the things I dislike about therapy is that it is highly subjective, of course there are methods employed by good therapists which counteract that subjectivity, but it is still a reason to be cautious.

Ultimately we have to face the idea that gender variation is in fact a natural phenomena, and there is every indication that it is common to all forms of sexually reproductive species. What method is best for determining if true gender variation is the prime motivator behind someone seeking HRT?

Personally, I go with a rational approach.

(edited to provide correct link)

I don't require my intelligence to be insulted, hun. You may condescend all you want, but I will not accept it.

I'm done.

Good luck.

[Veda]

I don't require my intelligence to insulted, hun. You may condescend all you want, but I will not accept it.

I'm done.

Good luck.

Not my intention to condescend and my apologies if you are offended, but I'm not going to limit my discourse on this subject.

Some things are very hard to accept and I find rationality and scientific method the best tools for finding truth.

"Arguments that appeal to ignorance rely merely on the fact that the veracity of the proposition is not disproved to arrive at a definite conclusion. These arguments fail to appreciate that the limits of one's understanding or certainty do not change what is true. They do not inform upon reality. That is, whatever the reality is, it does not "wait" upon human logic or analysis to be formulated. Reality exists at all times, and it exists independently of what is in the mind of anyone. And the true thrust of science and rational analysis is to separate preconceived notion(s) of what reality is, and to be open at all times to the observation of nature as it behaves, so as truly to discover reality."

— Duco A. Schreuder, Vision and Visual Perception

Lets just put it off to 'tough love'.

[patrick1967]

I find it hard reading this convo that there is so much taken personally. Each of us has our own path and what works best for us. Missy, you have indicated comorbid issues that make therapy a plus for you. That I can understand. For those that do not have additional issues playing into their experience, I can understand the frustration over mandatory therapy. Myself I find therapy to be a waste, both as far as cost and effectiveness. It has never been useful to me, but that is me personally. Implying that there are always additional issues under the surface that need raised and addressed seems to indicate that all of us have "problems" that need to be dealt with. Some of us are simply trans, not dealing with abuse, underlying mental issues, or other pathologies. The only issue should be "Is this individual of sound mind to make decisions about their own health care?" If I can decide without a shrinks approval to have my breasts enlarged or reduced, my nose resculpted or lipo, then these decisions should be mine as well, not gate kept

[Veda]

I just want to clarify again that I do not hold therapy as a negative in itself, as a matter of fact I look forward to trying it out as a method to deal with the changes I may go through after I have started HRT.

Ultimately HRT is not a magic switch where the first pill turns you into another gender, it takes time, I have the ability to stop before it causes permanent changes.

I cannot know how it will effect me until I start, and since I am a regular scientist, not a mad scientist I'm going to need outside observers to give me rational feedback.

If that rational feedback (or my own rational observations) indicate that HRT is not a good choice for me, then I will have to accept that.

No amount of therapy can prepare me for the reality of actually being on HRT, so I don't see the logic in gate-keeping.

There is however a responsibility of any medical establishment to inform about the physical effects of any medication, and I think that form of counseling should be a requirement before starting any type of medication.

There is no reason that at the time of counseling the question of therapy should not be addressed.

[Dena]

There is a mis conception in this thread. If you run into a therapist who is a gate keeper, you should dump them as soon as possible because they are on a power trip. A good therapist is a partner in the transition and offers a check on your thoughts. They will see the flaws in your thoughts and point them out. They will teach you what you don't know. They will speed your transition and help you deal with the problems that occur. Until you have received therapy from a good therapist, you shouldn't judge therapy off a few rumors that are circulated by people who haven't experienced therapy or who ran into a bad one.

It was only because after a good deal of digging I found one of the very few knowledgeable therapist that existed at the time that what was impossible suddenly became very possible for me. Every minute with that therapist was worth far more than I paid for it.

[Jacqueline]

Hi all,

I think Patrick may be right. I think there is a possibility to take things too personally. The beauty of a forum is that we can have discussions bringing up different opinions. We don't all have to agree. Just listen with respect and if we disagree, answer with respect. It is easy if upset, to lash out,  and  often we hurt those around us. We are a diverse community with such a "taboo" similarity  that it makes us family. At the risk of sounding very parental, one thing I told my children growing up,"You can be upset with your sister(s) but remember; sometimes, they will be the only ones there to back you up."

I find the arguments so based in logic and rational thought terribly attractive. However, this is a support site. Support is often for the irrational. It's those pesky deep seated things we try to ignore that get us into trouble. Feelings and emotions. Those are part of what therapists seem poised to help us with. We can be as rational as we like but deep down we are emotional animals. I have been very rational every step along my transition, emergence, re-birth, metamorphosis... I don't know how far mine will reach but I suspect further than I thought I would need it to. Each of those logical steps, landing, observing, reacting, re-calibrating, and mapping out the next one; led me to a place where I can cry, feel and experience more of my life than I ever could in it's rational world. I am still an engineer. I still use the scientific method and logical troubleshooting steps every day. But a year into HRT and I am still finding new benefits to the therapy I started two years ago.

I have to agree with Dena. Gate keeping is ridiculous in this day and age. However, I think there are fewer therapists who fit that description than there used to be. It's your hour, make them work for you. If they are not doing the job they should, fire them and find one who will. They are there to help you work your way through this process. I think most of them would hate being just a gate keeper.

Last thought and then you can choose what to do and move on. It is a question. Are we making too big a deal out of this? I mean, the topic title suggests we are. So either it is just a rant and maybe should be moved to the category ARGHHH!?  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,34.0.html
If so, maybe this topic has gone on long enough... If not, it is an interesting discussion and one many trans activists would love in on. In that case, maybe this should be in an activism topic. To a small degree though, a lot of the natural mutations arguments are kinda preaching to the choir. Lets see what can be done outside of this closed community.

Sincerly,

Joanna

[Veda]

There is a mis conception in this thread. If you run into a therapist who is a gate keeper, you should dump them as soon as possible because they are on a power trip. A good therapist is a partner in the transition and offers a check on your thoughts. They will see the flaws in your thoughts and point them out. They will teach you what you don't know. They will speed your transition and help you deal with the problems that occur. Until you have received therapy from a good therapist, you shouldn't judge therapy off a few rumors that are circulated by people who haven't experienced therapy or who ran into a bad one.

It was only because after a good deal of digging I found one of the very few knowledgeable therapist that existed at the time that what was impossible suddenly became very possible for me. Every minute with that therapist was worth far more than I paid for it.

All good points, the problem I'm having is not with a specific therapist, it is with my insurance provider requiring me to see a therapist before I start HRT.  Unfortunately I cant just drop my insurance provider.  The gate-keeping is in the form of having to have a letter from a therapist before my doctor can prescribe me any medication.  My doctor has already approved my being on HRT.

[Veda]

Last thought and then you can choose what to do and move on. It is a question. Are we making too big a deal out of this? I mean, the topic title suggests we are. So either it is just a rant and maybe should be moved to the category ARGHHH!?  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,34.0.html
If so, maybe this topic has gone on long enough... If not, it is an interesting discussion and one many trans activists would love in on. In that case, maybe this should be in an activism topic. To a small degree though, a lot of the natural mutations arguments are kinda preaching to the choir. Lets see what can be done outside of this closed community.

Sincerly,

Joanna

This thread it is getting out of proportion to what I intended, which wasn't quite an Arghhh!?, more of a 'wtf?'.  Though, I would love some interaction from the trans activist crowd so I might start it there...  I have to admit, the more I involve myself in the social and philosophical aspects of being transgender, the more I'm getting the feeling of how much further we have to go.  There is so much negativity surrounding and within that it is easy to lose sight of the idea that it is actually a positive thing to be true to oneself.  It's supposed to make things better darn it!

I'm going to end here and go look at my new shoes that should be in tomorrow... and try to figure out how to get that musty thrift store smell out of my new and very cute leather jacket...

[Dena]

I honestly think that you will not have any difficulties with the therapist as long as you take the appointment seriously. If you weren't transgender, my transdar would have told me a long time ago. I actually think it a pretty good deal giving the time for a few therapy visits in exchange for having your treatment paid for. If I were offered a deal like that, I would have taken it in a second and I would have been $100,000 richer today.