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Round 2 forehead feminization: About to make the decision in choosing the surgeon

Started by Ypsf09, March 04, 2017, 06:11:36 PM

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Ypsf09

Hi Sisters,

I had Skype consultation with Dr Barry Eppley today and was more than impressed by his evaluation of the current status of my forehead and his direct and no beating around the bush attitude.

At the start of my Ffs journey, I was a bit naive/confused in what exactly makes a forehead feminine and how could that be achieved for me. Due to this, I decided to go to the best in business, Dr Deschamps and totally trusted his skills and aesthetic. While Initially I was super happy with my forehead results, as time went on and swelling went down I started to notice some wierdness and started feeling something is not right. This made me start analyzing foreheads of women across different ethnicities and comparing them with mine. I started carefully studying postop forehead feminization results of other trans women and felt even though there was good amount of improvement made, it was still not quite there.

Here's the observations I have made:

1. Male vs female forehead

A typical male forehead has a prominent browbone, a visible browbone break into the upper/middle forehead. Central forehead region that is often flat and even slopes backward to some degree. This is exactly opposite of female foreheads who have a rounder, smoother and a more vertically oriented forehead with minimal to no browbone. As far as genetic females with  brow bossing, it is still aesthetically acceptable since there is no break between the browridge and the vertical forehead bone above it and the eye socket configuration, eyeball position/tilt, eye size and the distance between them is feminine. The sides of the brow-ridge/forehead are more tapered towards temple unlike in males in which the sides can be more boxy/square shaped. This is what makes a female forehead relatively fuller in the central region and overall rounder 3 dimensionally while also making the eyes pop out more( relative to men's deepset eyes). So for a optimal forehead feminization, combined 1) flatenning of the inner half of the browbone( mostly type 3 reconstruction) 2) aggresive reduction of the tail of the brow bone 3) increasing the convexity and the vertical slope of the forehead, would be required.


2. My forehead feminization:

While my surgeon did aggressively  setback the browridge region over the frontal sinus with type 3 reconstruction, the tail of the Browbone was not as significantly reduced. This caused the sides of the forehead to be more prominent than the central region which is opposite in a female forehead. The sides of the forehead are not as tapered into temporal region giving my forehead a broad and flat look overall with the tail of the browbone slightly sticking out. Finally, while having a coronal incision was good for giving me a slight brow lift and increasing the forehead height in the centre, it was not so good for the temporal/sides of the forehead. But I don't regret having it done through the coronal incision way.


Dr Eppley evaluation was totally in line with my observations. He also made suggestions on how the flow of the forehead into the rest of the skull needs to be enhanced/feminized which is extremely important to me as well. Something conventional FFS surgeons don't address that carefully or if at all. If you ever wonder why a lot of times postop Ffs trans women don't still really look like cis women despite having a feminine forehead, part of it is this reason. Also Dr Eppley offers simulations of the prospective results before choosing/performing the procedure.

I had consultation with Dr Adrian Hsieh(Taiwan) and his assessment was very similar,  but don't want to travel that far just for forehead work.

Reading Dr Z's forehead feminization approach from his website helped a lot too in understanding things. I think if he did type 3 reconstruction(which is extremely important for optimal forehead feminization) in addition to everything else that he currently does, he could produce some really excellent results. Because he doesn't setback the frontal sinus region aggressively, he relies on aggressive reduction of the tail of the browbone and sometimes on upper/mid forehead augmentation to create a rounder feminine forehead 3 dimensionally. However the eyes still are hooded and not as open.

From what I have seen from Dr MDM, he seems to be the best if not number1 surgeon when it comes to forehead feminization as he seems to address all of the issues to create a rounder feminine forehead with eyes as open as possible.

So for me, I am about to make the decision sometime next week between Dr MDM and Dr Eppley.

Anyway, as always I am opening up about every stage of my transition to help others as much as possible by sharing the knowledge acquired from my research and maybe saving other Ffs candidates from having to require revisions by being very well informed the first time.
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TigerLilyNYC

I just think you are stunning as is and very feminine. I wouldn't want to chant anything if I were you. I'm having a consult with Dr Deschamps. I like your results from him! But would you not recommend him based on how you're not happy entirely? Thanks!
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AutumnLeaves

You are in good hands with Dr. Eppley, and their aftercare is top notch. Tell him his patient from Washington State sends her regards  :)
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Ypsf09

Thanks TigerLilyNYC for your sweet words.

If I were to start my FFS journey again from scratch, I would still only choose Dr Deschamps. Maybe I would have asked him to be super aggressive. I opted not to have a in person consultation and had a phone consultation based on pics that I took in unflattering lighting(to make me look as bad as possible). So initially he suggested forehead, jaw, chin, nose and fat transfer. Since he didn't get to see me in person, I decided to only book for forehead, nose, chin and maybe include jaw/fat transfer too after he sees me in person. During our preop consultation(2days before surgery), he thought I looked good already and that I didnt need jaw/fat transfer. He even liked my nose and thought maybe we shouldn't touch that too, but I wanted it thinned out and upturned.

I am not unhappy with his work/aesthetic or about having to need/want revision. I actually really like the changes he made. What I am not very happy about is him not helping me on the tweaks and further changes that I want because he feels I don't need them. And after going to him, it's been very difficult to find a surgeon that I like as much as I like him, lol. I think he is very talented and not at all greedy.

Also during my first Ffs, I didn't want to travel outside the US which is not the case anymore.

Hope this helps. Feel free to pm me if u need more info.

AutumnLeaves,

Thanks again for your reassuring feedback on Dr Eppley. So far I am a fan. I will convey your regards to him.



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IglooAustralia

Am i the only one who doesn't see those big aggressive changes in dr. Di Maggios forehead reconstructions compared to other surgeons? I been observing his forehead results for a while now and i feel like he does a really great job at opening up the eyes but for some reason he doesn't set back the forehead area between your eyebrows/ where the nose starts as far back as i think he could? Or does he set back the forehead so much that the spot where the nose starts can't be set back anymore?

I been considering him for a while now but after looking at his after photos i started noticing this in almost all his patients.. and tbh i don't know if this is aggressive enough for my brow bone type... :(

And this is an example of what i'm talking about:
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Ypsf09

Wow, Great observation. I have thought about that too and think it's because his aesthetic is more of a round curved forehead with fullness in the center relative to the sides. But it could be also due to not being able to setback the nasion too much thus also not taking back the glabella to the maximum. Not sure if this limitation is due to patient anatomy or surgeons skills or aesthetic preference. I had read somewhere, only Dr O(thus Dr D too) was the only surgeon that could super aggressively setback the nasion.

My glabella region is more setback than the outer rims which is the opposite of the curved forehead and it was actually MDM that pointed it out and help me understand what could be done to further optimize my results. Having said that, my glabella/nose setback by Dr Deschamps is much more aggressive than the pic u posted and I like that more that way than it be more prominent. if he had removed more of the orbital rims, that would be have been perfect.
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oneoftwo

Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 11, 2017, 09:33:01 PM
Wow, Great observation. I have thought about that too and think it's because his aesthetic is more of a round curved forehead with fullness in the center relative to the sides. But it could be also due to not being able to setback the nasion too much thus also not taking back the glabella to the maximum. Not sure if this limitation is due to patient anatomy or surgeons skills or aesthetic preference. I had read somewhere, only Dr O(thus Dr D too) was the only surgeon that could super aggressively setback the nasion.

My glabella region is more setback than the outer rims which is the opposite of the curved forehead and it was actually MDM that pointed it out and help me understand what could be done to further optimize my results. Having said that, my glabella/nose setback by Dr Deschamps is much more aggressive than the pic u posted and I like that more that way than it be more prominent. if he had removed more of the orbital rims, that would be have been perfect.

TigerLily said this:
Quote
I just think you are stunning as is and very feminine. I wouldn't want to change anything if I were you. I'm having a consult with Dr Deschamps. I like your results from him!


TigerLily (and others who have made similar comments) are right. No surgery is "perfect".  But most people would likely suggest that you ended up with a spectacular result that is easily a 9 out of 10.   Do you really want to run the risk of ruining that result by a further attempt at "perfection" ?   Have you considered maybe just living with your  9 out of 10 result for a couple of years and really letting the underlying scar tissue fully shrink up  - -  before asking some other surgeon to try to "re-do" your now really striking feminine face?   It is not often that a surgeon says "no" to a request for plastic surgery.  Good surgeons will do that.  Consider, maybe there is a reason not to try to further pursue perfection ?


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IglooAustralia

Quote from: oneoftwo on March 12, 2017, 12:33:29 AM
TigerLily said this:

TigerLily (and others who have made similar comments) are right. No surgery is "perfect".  But most people would likely suggest that you ended up with a spectacular result that is easily a 9 out of 10.   Do you really want to run the risk of ruining that result by a further attempt at "perfection" ?   Have you considered maybe just living with your  9 out of 10 result for a couple of years and really letting the underlying scar tissue fully shrink up  - -  before asking some other surgeon to try to "re-do" your now really striking feminine face?   It is not often that a surgeon says "no" to a request for plastic surgery.  Good surgeons will do that.  Consider, maybe there is a reason not to try to further pursue perfection ?

Hey, i tried to reply to your private message but it wouldn't let me. Is there any other way to write you back?  :-X :-\
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Ypsf09

Quote from: oneoftwo on March 12, 2017, 12:33:29 AM
TigerLily said this:

TigerLily (and others who have made similar comments) are right. No surgery is "perfect".  But most people would likely suggest that you ended up with a spectacular result that is easily a 9 out of 10.   Do you really want to run the risk of ruining that result by a further attempt at "perfection" ?   Have you considered maybe just living with your  9 out of 10 result for a couple of years and really letting the underlying scar tissue fully shrink up  - -  before asking some other surgeon to try to "re-do" your now really striking feminine face?   It is not often that a surgeon says "no" to a request for plastic surgery.  Good surgeons will do that.  Consider, maybe there is a reason not to try to further pursue perfection ?

Thanks for your valuable input. I definitely agree with everything you said and that's why I get afraid last minute about booking the surgery even when I feel I have found the right surgeon. I have so much respect for Dr Deschamps and him saying no consistently has definitely made me very fearful of more facial surgeries.
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anjaq

Hmm - I do not quite understand - those observations seem to be quit ein line what FFS surgeons usually say and try to adress, except maybe the vertical slope of the forehead, which probably is hard to really fix - I guess only filling it with bone cement could help, but may produce a larger forehead then?
The brow bones and oribals are shaved in FFS and the center part is set back in Type III reconstruction, which honestl seems to be the only one really worth doing for almost everyone

Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 04, 2017, 06:11:36 PM
Dr Eppley evaluation was totally in line with my observations. He also made suggestions on how the flow of the forehead into the rest of the skull needs to be enhanced/feminized which is extremely important to me as well. Something conventional FFS surgeons don't address that carefully or if at all. If you ever wonder why a lot of times postop Ffs trans women don't still really look like cis women despite having a feminine forehead, part of it is this reason. Also Dr Eppley offers simulations of the prospective results before choosing/performing the procedure.

So what would he do differently than other surgeons? I am interested. I have not yet heard of him. Is it costly to get a consultation with him and have those simulations done? I would be interested to see if the simulations turn out different than the ones I had already done and which in part underwhelmed me a bit.

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Ypsf09

Dr Eppley was different in that his approach is to sculpt a feminine forehead as opposed to just removing masculine traits. Creating a feminine forehead that is 3dimensional not sometthing that looks flat/wide. Also he can feminize the top/back of the head that I need some help with. Plus I like his approach on first simulating the changes before signing off on the surgery. His consultation fee is $100 for an hour. My quote($35k) was rather complicated because it for multiple procedures which also included rib(10,11,12) modification.

So far I feel that Dr MDM is the only ffs surgeon that focuses on all points(except aggressive setback of the glabella region).
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anjaq

I do not quite understand - as far as I know the female forehead is basically the masculine forehead minus the masculine elements - what does he do sculp there? Does he add bone or bone cement to shape the forehead? I head that this was done before to basically round the forehead by filling the bone to make it smooth, but in some cases it looked not that good so most surgeons decided to do these type 3 reconstructions instead, reducing the bone mass overall instead of adding to it and almost always setting back the center of the forehead (glabella I think?).

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IglooAustralia

Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 22, 2017, 05:06:26 PM
Dr Eppley was different in that his approach is to sculpt a feminine forehead as opposed to just removing masculine traits. Creating a feminine forehead that is 3dimensional not sometthing that looks flat/wide. Also he can feminize the top/back of the head that I need some help with. Plus I like his approach on first simulating the changes before signing off on the surgery. His consultation fee is $100 for an hour. My quote($35k) was rather complicated because it for multiple procedures which also included rib(10,11,12) modification.

So far I feel that Dr MDM is the only ffs surgeon that focuses on all points(except aggressive setback of the glabella region).

Does dr Eppley also do the forehead "type 3" reconstruction or is this something only FFS doctors are capable of doing? And have you seen any of his forehead feminisation results?
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Sophia Sentiment

I can't see the photos of you, where are they located? Is it in a previous post?
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Ypsf09

Quote from: IglooAustralia on April 04, 2017, 10:32:09 AM

Does dr Eppley also do the forehead "type 3" reconstruction or is this something only FFS doctors are capable of doing? And have you seen any of his forehead feminisation results?

Yes he does type 3 reconstruction. I am planning to visit him in person in may to see the results. Though I have already had type 3, and that's not my concern anymore. What I am looking for older s someone who can give me a curved convex forehead without using bone paste. In addition to this, also looking at rounding the back of head/vertex of head as that's a feminine trait.
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Ypsf09

Quote from: Sophia Sentiment on April 05, 2017, 10:12:11 PM
I can't see the photos of you, where are they located? Is it in a previous post?

Yes it was in a separate post. But I removed all pics due to privacy reasons. Also I went to Dr Deschamps, I didn't think he was on ur list
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Sophia Sentiment

No, Deschamps definitely wasn't on my list but I just noticed you were considering MDM and wanted to know what you looked like and see more examples of Deschamps work. But that's all good  :)
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EmmaLoo

Eppley is pretty good about reviewing images and providing feedback. He also does 10 minute Skype consults for free. I dont find his pricing all that high for an American Surgeon. He also likes using custom implants.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Seriously, I'm just winging it like everyone else. Sometimes it works, other times -- not so much. HRT 2003 - FFS|Orch 2005 - GCS 2017 - No Regrets EVER!
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Miss Clara

I considered Drs. MDM, Leis, Weinstein, DesChamps, Eppley, Spiegel, Zukowski, and Simon/Capitan (FacialTeam) for my FFS.  My reason for not selecting Dr. Eppley even though he is geographically near me, was his relatively limited experience with FFS two years ago, and his not specializing in craniofacial surgery (he does a vast assortment of surgeries).  I wanted someone who could do Type III forehead reconstruction in his sleep.  I would be wary of anyone who claims to be able to narrow or recontour the forehead beyond anatomical limits using burring and bone fillers (e.g., PMMA and HA cement).  Fillers do pose a risk of infection and even dislodgement if used extensively.
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jasmine891

Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 11, 2017, 09:33:01 PM
Wow, Great observation. I have thought about that too and think it's because his aesthetic is more of a round curved forehead with fullness in the center relative to the sides. But it could be also due to not being able to setback the nasion too much thus also not taking back the glabella to the maximum. Not sure if this limitation is due to patient anatomy or surgeons skills or aesthetic preference. I had read somewhere, only Dr O(thus Dr D too) was the only surgeon that could super aggressively setback the nasion.

My glabella region is more setback than the outer rims which is the opposite of the curved forehead and it was actually MDM that pointed it out and help me understand what could be done to further optimize my results. Having said that, my glabella/nose setback by Dr Deschamps is much more aggressive than the pic u posted and I like that more that way than it be more prominent. if he had removed more of the orbital rims, that would be have been perfect.


I have to say I TOTALLY agree with your "if he had removed nore of the oribital rim" comment. I went to Dr. D right towards the end of his collab with Dr. O and I refused a hairline advancement due to the scar. Dr. O insisted and produce a good result with great forehead height, it wasnt larger than what I naturally had. However like you, the outer rims were left basically untouched...it seemed odd. The center was set back nicely, but originally Dr. D didnt think he wanted that bone removed...although I specifically stated I wanted the flatter appearance, ugh I thought I was the patient. Anyway, I went back for revision and I didnt convey well that the oribital rim was still to high/prominent, mainly of the left side, so instead I think he thought I meant to raise it, (the eyebrow) now I have the large forhead in height, that I was able to avoid the first time with the incision hidden in the hair and the left side is even more spaced out (raised) due to what was I think an attempt at a brow lift. I totally regret having the revision and wish I would have went to Dr. Z and did the endoscopic method on just the outer rims, since that was my only concern after getting my first forehead reconstruction.
I like Dr. D, as you said...but I do feel like he is to set in his technique or ways. I orignally stated I wanted more of a flat appearance before the first surgery and he stated to me well thats not in line with women of your ethnicity. Once again, Im the patient and I feel if my outcome is not a fit then just decline the surgery.

To any Trans women, that have had FFS I want to strongly advocate against revisions unless its really needed and your concern is understood by the doctor clearly and you have a clear idea of how they plan to correct the problem once your asleep on the table. I seriously now look at old pics and wish I had left well enough alone.

Im hoping to have ANOTHER revision and hopefully have my forehead skin relaxed some and restore the natural round hairline shape I had before that left side was lifted and see how much can be pulled from the back to meet the front incision without pulling so much and thus increasing the forehead height.

Any advice is appreciated?
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