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Miyuki's Voice Surgery at Yeson

Started by Miyuki, March 07, 2017, 01:19:34 AM

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Miyuki

Hey everyone! Wow, it's been a while hasn't it? Not sure if anyone here will even remember me, so here is a link to my previous voice surgery thread to provide some context. I just wanted to say, I am now officially booked for surgery at Yeson! :D I booked a date for surgery, and booked a flight/hotel. I will be in Korea from June 20th to the 29th, so if anyone else is planning to be there during that period and wants to meet up, be sure to let me know. ;) Just an FYI though, apparently the summer is the most expensive time to fly to Korea. I would've waited until later in the year to get a better fare, but during the summer was really the only time I could work things out logistically (accounting for the fact I won't be able to speak for at least a month after surgery).

Anyway, I talked a lot earlier in this thread about how I was on the fence about doing this surgery, since I do have a very passable voice, and I have actually been having a lot fewer issues with it lately than I was when I originally made this thread. But still, the allure of having a proper feminine singing voice and no longer dealing with the strain and effort of using a trained voice is too much to pass up. I decided on Yeson, because I felt like their surgery technique would offer the highest chance of improving my voice and the lowest chance of messing up what I already have. That being said, there is always that lingering doubt, and I will probably use the results of this surgery as a metric to decide if I want to pursue other transition related surgeries in the future.

I would also like to say, as far as why I stopped posting, I had a really hard year last year... I mean, I talked a lot about how poorly my life in general when I was still posting, but last year brought things to a whole new level. That's all I really want to say about that for now, but the good news is, I'm in a better place now than I have been in a long time. I'm feeling good about my transition, and life in general, and I really haven't been dwelling on gender dysphoria that much at all. I guess when you become occupied with even bigger problems, even gender dysphoria has to take a back seat. And anyway, I was already feeling better about my dysphoria, as my last topic had mentioned, so it seemed like the right time to bow out.

But I do want to post about my surgery experiences for the benefit of anyone else who might consider voice surgery. I'm not sure if I'm the best example, since the outcomes and expectations are probably different for me than for someone who is having the surgery because their voice can't pass at all. But I'll do my best to provide my perspective on the process and hopefully it will help someone out.
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Dena

I am still here and I remember you. After surgery you will still need to used a trained voice however it will be much less of an issue hitting the feminine range. In my case, I still need to use a head voice but instead of a 180 HZ maximum pitch, I can now hit around 700 HZ. As for singing, my old voice was so bad, I never learned how to so to. If I wanted to sing, I would have to take lessons starting with the basics.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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Miyuki

Hmm... do you think that's still true if your voice is in the androgynous range to start out with though? I would think that at a certain point the line between using a trained voice and just speaking naturally would start to blur. Well, I guess I'm going to find out how it goes either way. ;) I really do hope I can sing well after the surgery though. I can sort of force myself to sing in a female range now, but the strain pretty much destroys my voice if I do it for any amount of time. Oh, and I remember you too. ;) Nice to see you're still around providing helpful advice as always.
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Dena

You still need the proper resonance though you don't have to pitch your voice nearly as much as before unless you want to hit the really high notes. Now my voice has had plenty of time to heal, I find that I can still go well into the male range with the chest voice so the bottom end wasn't lifted all that much but the upper end and total range has been greatly extended. CTA is the only way to really eliminate the bottom end but that's something that Yeson doesn't offer. I also debate the value of CTA unless you are dealing with a really low voice. The other disadvantage of CTA is that it limits the range so it's not appropriate if you want to sing.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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Miyuki

Resonance is actually something I was sort of wondering about. I have heard people comment who had gone to an actual professional voice therapist that my resonance was really good, but I never specifically worked on my resonance at all. I don't know why I have good resonance, because it was never something I put any thought or effort into. What is the typical way you are supposed to work on training resonance?
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Inarasarah

Hi Miyuki,

I look forward to hearing about your experience.  I just had surgery at Yeson a month ago, and I am just starting to speak again.  It is tough and I do sound a bit raspy right now, but each aday I am able to say a few more words.  In fact I was able to order something from the store today without having to write it down.  Huge accomplishment.  My Mom even commented that I sounded better.  The voice training starts in a month and Yeson does provide some vocal exercises to help with voice placement.  I start all of these next month :)

Best wishes to you.
-Sarah
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Dena

Women normally used a head voice though some use the chest voice. As there vocal cords are already pitched higher, they  don't need to tune the larynx as much. As your starting voice was already  up there, you will approach it more like a CIS woman would using the larynx for some filtering but not as much as you did before surgery. It will somewhat depend on how much of a tie you get. Mine was up there at 50% but I suspect the doctor will decide on less. That will determine how much additional pitch you will have to add in to hit the desired range.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
If you are helped by this site, consider leaving a tip in the jar at the bottom of the page or become a subscriber
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Miyuki

Quote from: Inarasarah on March 07, 2017, 04:33:37 PM
Hi Miyuki,

I look forward to hearing about your experience.  I just had surgery at Yeson a month ago, and I am just starting to speak again.  It is tough and I do sound a bit raspy right now, but each aday I am able to say a few more words.  In fact I was able to order something from the store today without having to write it down.  Huge accomplishment.  My Mom even commented that I sounded better.  The voice training starts in a month and Yeson does provide some vocal exercises to help with voice placement.  I start all of these next month :)

Best wishes to you.
-Sarah

I'm glad to hear your recovery is going well. I am a little nervous about the recovery and the whole not talking for a month thing, but I planned everything so I'm doing it at a time where I won't have any obligations that would require me to speak, so hopefully it's not too much of a problem. By the way, I'm curious, what did you find that was fun and interesting to do in Seoul? I don't really have any specific plans for my time there other than surgery and playing hours upon hours of pop'n music at the nearest arcade. :D

Quote from: Dena on March 07, 2017, 06:44:06 PM
Women normally used a head voice though some use the chest voice. As there vocal cords are already pitched higher, they  don't need to tune the larynx as much. As your starting voice was already  up there, you will approach it more like a CIS woman would using the larynx for some filtering but not as much as you did before surgery. It will somewhat depend on how much of a tie you get. Mine was up there at 50% but I suspect the doctor will decide on less. That will determine how much additional pitch you will have to add in to hit the desired range.

I wonder if this is why I had an easier time training my voice than most do. I've heard about the whole head voice vs. chest voice thing, and I am pretty sure I never actually used a chest voice. Even when I try to speak in a way that makes my chest vibrate more, it just feels weird and unnatural to me. So maybe that's why the only thing I really needed to work on was pitch.
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Dena

Quote from: Miyuki on March 08, 2017, 01:14:26 AM
I wonder if this is why I had an easier time training my voice than most do. I've heard about the whole head voice vs. chest voice thing, and I am pretty sure I never actually used a chest voice. Even when I try to speak in a way that made my chest vibrate more, it just feels weird and unnatural to me. So maybe that's why the only thing I really needed to work on was pitch.
It could be. We had one member who went to Yeson and her voice was totally feminine right out of the box. She told us she had a very sing song voice when she was younger and her father hated it. I suspect she was very used to feminine speech patterns as well as at least a partial head voice. Her voice what one that violated the 50% surgery, 50% therapy rule as all she needed was surgery.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
If you are helped by this site, consider leaving a tip in the jar at the bottom of the page or become a subscriber
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Miyuki

^BUMP^

Well, the day has arrived! Technically tomorrow, but today I have been very busy packing and getting ready, so I thought I might as well revive this thread too. The plan is, leave on the 19th (tomorrow), arrive on the 20th, pre-op on the 21st, surgery on the 22nd, and post op on the 28th. So far I don't have any particular plans for my time in Korea other than bumming around video game arcades. ;D If anyone has any suggestions please let me know. ;)
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Miyuki

Just a quick update from my iPhone, a much bigger one will follow later. I had surgery today and everything went perfectly, I'm currently in the recovery room, where I will be for several hours, and after that I can return to my hotel. One thing I learned from Dr. Kim is that long term use of a trained voice is not good for you. He estimated I was using my voice something like 13 times harder than a normal person would. It's going to be a challenge to learn how to adapt to my new voice, but if I trained my voice once, I can do it again. ;)
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Dena

Congratulations on your surgery. I have used a trained voice for over 35 years and their wasn't any damage to my voice when Dr Haben looked at it. I think the correct wording is abuse of a trained voice isn't good for you. My therapist was very clear about what I should and shouldn't do with my voice and those are the lessons I pass on when working with people on the site. My therapist wrote the book on treating damaged voice without surgery using only therapy.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
If you are helped by this site, consider leaving a tip in the jar at the bottom of the page or become a subscriber
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Miyuki

Okay, full update time! First of all, sorry to leave everyone hanging, but it has been an extremely busy few days and this is the first real downtime I have had. I left early Monday afternoon and got here late Tuesday evening. The original plan was to arrive by around 6PM, but my connecting flight was delayed and I didn't actually get here until after 9PM. Then there was a long taxi ride, getting settled, and by the time all was said and done my brother and I got to bed by about midnight.

Then on Wednesday it was my pre-op appointment. There was some free time in the morning, but since we both wanted to sleep in, we pretty much went to the pre-op first thing. They had me do a ton of different tests, one of which was really difficult for me to do since I couldn't stop gagging, and after that I was able to talk to Dr. Kim. He told me that the tests showed, among other things, that I had an extremely bad vocal tremor and that I am using my voice something like 13 times harder that normal to compensate for it. This didn't really surprise me, since I knew I always pushed my voice extremely hard, and that it made me highly suceptable to vocal strain. So no surprise, he said I needed Botox, and that I will probably even need a follow up Botox injection in six months. He also thinks I should follow up with a voice therapist to help unlearn all the bad habits I have accumulated using my trained voice over the years. Overall, I was just extremely impressed with the whole process, and how knollegabable and intelligent Dr. Kim was,  and it really made me feel validated about my descision to come here.

After the pre-op, my brother and I decided to get dinner at a Japanese resturaunt near the hotel, as a sort of celebratory dinner/last meal.  The menu was only in Japanese/Korean (and unfortunately my kanji skills are still a bit lacking, but our server spoke English and helped us order. It was pricy, but wow, it was the best sashimi I have ever had! I guess the standards here are just different, because I've had sashimi tons of times in the US before, so it's not like I'm new to eating it. The sake was great too, even though I ordered one of the less expensive bottles (well, relatively at least).

After dinner, I wanted to to to get to a Korean arcade, but it was getting late, and our original plan of taking the bus didn't seem like a good idea, so we had to figure out how to get a taxi. I was going to use uber, but it quickly became apparent this was not a cost-effective option in Korea, so we had to figure out the Korean Taxi app Kakao Taxi. With an online guide, it wasn't too difficult, but then most Korean Taxi drivers don't speak a word of English, so I had to show them on the map where we wanted to go. In general, there really don't seem to be a lot of people here who speak very much English unfortunately, so communication is always a problem.

We only had time for a few hours at the arcade, and unfortunately I had a bit of trouble getting used to the controls. For pop'n music the buttons had a very different feel than my arcade controller at home, which would probably take a few days to get used to. For Tekken, they don't use Sanwa sticks, but instead use Happ sticks, which I am not used to at all. So basically, a lot of the time I just couldn't do the move I meant to. Nothing a little practice couldn't fix, but again, it takes time. After the arcade it was back to the hotel for sleep, because surgery check-in was at 8AM the next day.

In the morning we again woke up, got ready, and headed to Yeson. We are staying at the Princess Hotel incidentally, which is less than 10 minutes away from Yeson on foot, so travel there and back was very convenient. Due to the effects of anesthesia my memory of the morning is a little hazy, but basically I remember I put on scrubs, then they gave me an IV, and they wheeled me into the surgery room, and a few minutes later I was out. After waking up, they kept me in a side room to recover. For lunch I had mushroom soup, which was probably the best "hospital" food I have ever eaten. Incidentally, they did say solid food shouldn't be a problem from this evening on, which makes sense since the surgery wasn't in the esophagus, but it was something I was concerned about, so it was good to know. After resting for a number of hours with my brother, I was called out to meet Dr. Kim again. He showed me some pictures of the surgery (which apparently only lasted and hour) and went over some post-op stuff. Incidentally, he expects my final post-op pitch should settle at around 230Hz, so well within the female range. I am certainly not complaining. ;) Although personally I think he might have overestimated my base pitch a little due to my inability to produce my natural pitch on command, so I think 220Hz might be more like it (which is still incredible). After meeting with Doctor Kim, I went back to the room, went over my medication instructions, walked around a little, and then after the IV finished I was able to go.

For dinner, my brother and I both bought buckets of ice cream at a convenience store. I got green tea ice cream, and he got berry flavored. Then he went to bed early because he is pretty jet lagged and this trip has been pretty exhausting for him. That first day of travel was probabably the longest day of his life. Personally I've had worse, but it was still a grueling experience. I really am glad to have him with me though, this would have been so much harder to do on my own, and not very much fun either...

So, that is the story up until now. One thing I am happy to report, is that even though my throat is feeling a bit sore, I am otherwise feeling pretty normal, and I don't think I will have to miss out on too much fun while I'm recovering. I still plan to take it easy tomorrow just to be safe, but after that, I should be able to do pretty much anything that doesn't recquire talking. The not talking part really is going to be the hard part, but I'll manage somehow. I guess thats pretty much everything. I probably won't do any update posts in the next few days unless something noteworthy happens, but if anyone has any questions, let me know and I would be happy to try and answer them. ;)
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Miyuki

Quote from: Dena on June 21, 2017, 11:15:35 PM
Congratulations on your surgery. I have used a trained voice for over 35 years and their wasn't any damage to my voice when Dr Haben looked at it. I think the correct wording is abuse of a trained voice isn't good for you. My therapist was very clear about what I should and shouldn't do with my voice and those are the lessons I pass on when working with people on the site. My therapist wrote the book on treating damaged voice without surgery using only therapy.

Thank you! :D Yea, I know lack of formal training probably puts me at much higher risk of vocal abuse. And now it looks like I am going to need training just to unlearn all my bad habits. :P But you know, I basically go by what sounds like "my" voice in my head to determine how far to push it, and I'm not sure if a therapist could talk me into settling for less, so I really think this was the right way to go for me.
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Kendra

Miyuki, thank you so much for posting details and your progress!  And congratulations on your results.  The information you have provided is a great help for others. 
Assigned male at birth 1963.  Decided I wanted to be a girl in 1971.  Laser 2014-16, electrolysis 2015-17, HRT 7/2017, GCS 1/2018, VFS 3/2018, FFS 5/2018, Labiaplasty & BA 7/2018. 
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Miyuki

Hey, so who is up for some before and after... pictures??? Yea, since I won't be able to do proper voice samples for quite some time, pictures will have to do for now. So here is before the procedure:


And here is after:


Dr. Kim said the white stuff was just debris, not any sort of scarring. Overall, results look pretty incredible! Hopefully they will sound just as good.
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kwala

Looking great! Best wishes on recovery. I'm headed there myself very soon to see if Dr. Kim can salvage the unscarred portion of my voice and get me back to sounding more like a normal human. Reading your posts is getting me excited and also gives me a good idea of what to expect. Best of luck keeping silent :)
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Miyuki

My experience with Yeson was that it really was a world class operation. I would have absolutely no reservations reccomending it to anyone having issues with their voice. I read some of your earlier posts, and I'm very sorry for what you've been through. I really look forward to hearing if Dr. Kim thinks he can do anything for you.
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Ritana

I had vfs with Yeson 18 months ago, and like you, I had a bad vocal tremor which the tests showed. Recovery was a real emotional rollercoaster. My voice was raspy and broken for about a year. Resonance got worse too. I didnt know how to use my vocal cords too as straining (the way I used to speak pre vfs) would cause me to have male resonance. I had to learn  howI to speak again from scratch to achieve that sweet, natural female voice.  After about a year of trial and error (during which I got really depressed), I started to see the end of the tunnel. I now hsve a normal female voice that flawlessly passes on the phone; however, if I party too much (drink, shout, get exposed to cigarette smoke) my voice starts to break again.

Vfs can increase ur pitch; however, it does not improve your resonance and can make ur voice frail and weak. Further, vfs is only 50 % of the solution at best,. The other 50% is speech therapy especially if you were speaking the wrong way pre vfs ie straining. Some of the damage caused by straining is irreversible according to Dr Kim.
A post-op woman
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Miyuki

I'm sorry your recovery was such a struggle. :( I hope the damage isn't permanent... I was abusing my voice for a good 3 years prior to surgery, which is not good, but some people force trained voices for decades, so I guess it could be worse. One advantage that I do have is that my untrained voice was kind of high anyway. Dr. Kim measured it at 158hz, although personally when I measured it after not speaking for a while and giving my voice time to cool down, I got more like 145-150. Anyway, my voice was never really worse than androgynous, so I don't think I have to worry too much about sounding male again, except maybe in that first month of talking before the Botox wears off. But in any case, I'm okay with just taking it slow, doing the exercises, and letting my voice cone back in it's own time. I always knew it would take a year to achieve the full results anyway.
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