NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS:

[Steph]

I think that if one were to re-read the entire thread that one would discover that the general consensus is that TS, pre or post-op are entitled to be granted access to all women's facilities.  The contention arose when it was assumed that by using the term transgender that it included those who consider themselves to be CD or TV.

Steph

[Rachael]

genderqueer's assault folk? RIGHT.... Melissa, youve said some good things, and some utterly rubbish things in this thread. and i think there is a point where we need to reach some equilibrium. I dont think women just 'put up' with the fear of assault... we go out of our way to AVOID assault tbh.... its real, and scary, and not something you can just go 'meh' to...
no, 'im more female than you' isnt a guy thing, its a ->-bleeped-<- thing... as peeing contesteque as it sounds, its fairly aplicable. not every trans woman thinks how other women do, not every woman does too.... but TBH, a lot of transwomen thinking, sadly, is the male view of how women think.
R

[melissa90299]

The San Francisco LGBT Center announced that it has established gender-neutral bathrooms on the second and fourth floor. Those who in fear of being raped by a gender queer can still use the Men's or Women's room on the first and third floor. The policy was put into effect on the insistence of transgender activists, progressive, forward-thinking folks who understand the need to allow people to pee in the place they are most comfortable in. Those who insist on litmus tests for transpeople before entering the bathroom of their choice are imposing their prejudice on other transfolks and are promoting a position opposite of the vast majority of trans activists.

It is indeed shocking to find so many trans people here who are in favor of regressive rather progressive TG positions. Opinions are of course like...

[Dorothy]

In my country Argentina, if someone looks like a man & uses the womens washroom, he gets arrested & sent to jail where he will be most likely raped, harrassed and beaten.

[Rachael]

The San Francisco LGBT Center announced that it has established gender-neutral bathrooms on the second and fourth floor. Those who in fear of being raped by a gender queer can still use the Men's or Women's room on the first and third floor. The policy was put into effect on the insistence of transgender activists, progressive, forward-thinking folks who understand the need to allow people to pee in the place they are most comfortable in. Those who insist on litmus tests for transpeople before entering the bathroom of their choice are imposing their prejudice on other transfolks and are promoting a position opposite of the vast majority of trans activists.

It is indeed shocking to find so many trans people here who are in favor of regressive rather progressive TG positions. Opinions are of course like...

where did the fear of getting raped by genderqueers apear from ? please can you provide me with some facts regarding this?
because your using a term that some androgyne people identify with... thus suggesting androynes rape people in the womens room....
pia: yeah i think thats fair tbh
R

[melissa90299]

In my country Argentina, if someone looks like a man & uses the womens washroom, he gets arrested & sent to jail where he will be most likely raped, harrassed and beaten.

Hopefully, the regressives here won't get their way and establish that policy in North America.

Letter to SF LGBT Center re: gender-neutral bathrooms.

[Kate]

The San Francisco LGBT Center announced that it has established gender-neutral bathrooms on the second and fourth floor. Those who in fear of being raped by a gender queer can still use the Men's or Women's room on the first and third floor. The policy was put into effect on the insistence of transgender activists, progressive, forward-thinking folks who understand the need to allow people to pee in the place they are most comfortable in. Those who insist on litmus tests for transpeople before entering the bathroom of their choice are imposing their prejudice on other transfolks and are promoting a position opposite of the vast majority of trans activists.

It is indeed shocking to find so many trans people here who are in favor of regressive rather progressive TG positions.

Categorizing the users of Women's Rooms as regressive, prejudiced and afraid of "being raped by a gender queer" is kinda unfair, don't ya think? But it's exactly that sort of demonizing spin tactic that makes me run faaaaaaar away from the activist community and their making enemies and battles.

Some people transition and consider themselves part of a larger gender-variant community, fighting against the mainstream for changes together, bending the rules of gender roles as needed.

And some people transition and just get on with their lives as ordinary men and women, considering themselves finally PART of the mainstream world, not fighting to change it. Those people often don't think in terms of "trans rights," but rather just "rights" as the ordinary men and women they are. I don't know if activists don't understand that concept, or simply refuse to acknowledge it's validity, but it is what it is.

I don't think either side is wrong. Both have their points. But I DO think it's terribly unfair for the activist community to insist that *everyone* who transitions is by default part of their "community" and war, demonizing anyone who disagrees with them as being a regressive bigot.

~Kate~

[Rachael]

I am a female. i dont care if you arnt. i am, and at the end of the day i need a wee... so get out of my way!
R

[Sheila]

Kate,
  If it wasn't for the activists, we wouldn't have the rights that we have now. You would still be thinking of changing and maybe you would have never really gotten as far as you have now. Because of the activist we have opened some doors for our future. Now, I do know that there are some who want to go overboard and we need to have people out there who can reel them in a little. It just seems that the people who complain about what the activist do, they don't get in a play a part in the activism. Like stating what most want. Some like to hide their heads in the sand while others do the dirty work and it so happens the ones who do the dirty work want more. You need to stand up and tell these people what you want. Writing to people on the computer will get you nothing, maybe flamed. You need to write to all those groups that were on the list against ENDA. Those are the people you need to talk to. If in another country your statesman, whatever they are called.
  It is hard for people to understand, like this thread. It says "NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS" What is a locker-room? Is it a restroom, washroom or bathroom. Is it a place you change your clothes after, say exercising. Is it a place to shower and change your clothes after say exercising or maybe you have a place at your work place to change. What is a locker-room? People have a big misunderstanding of some words, I know I do. I didn't think a locker-room was a restroom, washroom or bathroom. I knew that it could have one in a locker room. Just need to get the terms right.
Sheila

[Blanche]

I don't want men in any ladys toilet.  They dont belong there.  Maybe true, maybe a man is harmless in a lady's toilets, maybe not.  Maybe he's a serial killer waiting to pawn on his next victim.  I dont want to take the risks.  I dont have to.  Men arent welcome there.  I will make sure of that.

[melissa90299]

The San Francisco LGBT Center announced that it has established gender-neutral bathrooms on the second and fourth floor. Those who in fear of being raped by a gender queer can still use the Men's or Women's room on the first and third floor. The policy was put into effect on the insistence of transgender activists, progressive, forward-thinking folks who understand the need to allow people to pee in the place they are most comfortable in. Those who insist on litmus tests for transpeople before entering the bathroom of their choice are imposing their prejudice on other transfolks and are promoting a position opposite of the vast majority of trans activists.

It is indeed shocking to find so many trans people here who are in favor of regressive rather progressive TG positions.

Categorizing the users of Women's Rooms as regressive, prejudiced and afraid of "being raped by a gender queer" is kinda unfair, don't ya think? But it's exactly that sort of demonizing spin tactic that makes me run faaaaaaar away from the activist community and their making enemies and battles.

Some people transition and consider themselves part of a larger gender-variant community, fighting against the mainstream for changes together, bending the rules of gender roles as needed.

And some people transition and just get on with their lives as ordinary men and women, considering themselves finally PART of the mainstream world, not fighting to change it. Those people often don't think in terms of "trans rights," but rather just "rights" as the ordinary men and women they are. I don't know if activists don't understand that concept, or simply refuse to acknowledge it's validity, but it is what it is.

I don't think either side is wrong. Both have their points.

~Kate~

Do you really feel YOU are part of the mainstream, Kate?

In San Francisco, being in the mainstream means being an activist. (Actually, I feel that I am more a part of the mainstream than the vast majority of women who attempt to transition.) People here know that we are all part of something bigger than us and we have to work together to make this world a better place for all of us. As Gandhi said "We must be the change we wish to see in the world." I try to live by that every day. People who foster intolerance and try to restrict other people's human rights are bigots.

But I DO think it's terribly unfair for the activist community to insist that *everyone* who transitions is by default part of their "community" and war, demonizing anyone who disagrees with them as being a regressive bigot.

That is a classic straw argument as the "activist community" can't possibly act as a group. But whether you like it or not, you are part of the community. And I don't know any activist who thinks a person is a bigot simply by disagreeing with her or him.

No one is demonizing anyone but I will continue to speak out against policies of exclusion and intolerance. It is almost blasphemy that women in transition  (pre-op women who are early in transition yet) are the first to exclude others thinking that taking hormones and wearing a dress gives them superiority over others in the trans community.

Posted on: November 30, 2007, 11:03:01 PM

I don't want men in any ladys toilet.  They dont belong there.  Maybe true, maybe a man is harmless in a lady's toilets, maybe not.  Maybe he's a serial killer waiting to pawn on his next victim.  I dont want to take the risks.  I dont have to.  Men arent welcome there.  I will make sure of that.

Please  define "man" Is anyone with M on their DL a man? Is anyone with male on their passprt a man? On their birth certificate? If so, there are an awful lot of men here trying to exclude other men from using the ladies room.

[Blanche]

A man is anyone who has a male GI being TV, CD.  As long as he has a male gender, he is a man.  As long he isnt female gender, he is a man.

[melissa90299]

  It is hard for people to understand, like this thread. It says "NO MEN IN THE LADIES LOCKER-ROOMS" What is a locker-room? Is it a restroom, washroom or bathroom. Is it a place you change your clothes after, say exercising. Is it a place to shower and change your clothes after say exercising or maybe you have a place at your work place to change. What is a locker-room? People have a big misunderstanding of some words, I know I do. I didn't think a locker-room was a restroom, washroom or bathroom. I knew that it could have one in a locker room. Just need to get the terms right.
Sheila

Sheila, the thread title is misleading, here is the issue

"Bill 23-07 adds "gender-identity" to the current Non-Discrimination Law, and will allow males who self identify themselves as females to have open access to ALL women's and girls' restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and showers. In other words, a male teacher or student will be able to use the female restrooms and locker rooms if he thinks he is a female."

[Keira]

Without respect for the legitimacy of GG's point of view,
there can be no respect for ours.
This is not totally straight forward since there is the option of unisex rooms
as restrooms instead of traditional ones.
I think the energy needed to expend to get any male self declaring themselves
as a women  into women's restrooms
when the option of unisex ones exist is better spent elsewhere

[melissa90299]

A man is anyone who has a male GI being TV, CD.  As long as he has a male gender, he is a man.  As long he isnt female gender, he is a man.

That is a pretty simplistic definition. How are you going to determine what someone's gender is? How do you plan to enforce your Draconian stipulation? Why not require at least a female passport to use the ladies room? (In the U.S.)

[Blanche]

Now if you've got to ask me about gender variant peeps.  They need a unisex toilet.  The women's toilets isnt the place for them either.

[melissa90299]

Without respect for the legitimacy of GG's point of view,
there can be no respect for ours.

Huh? You consider your POV different from cisgendered women? That is baffling to me.

Posted on: November 30, 2007, 11:14:38 PM

Now if you've got to ask me about gender variant peeps.  They need a unisex toilet.  The women's toilets isnt the place for them either.

I say pre-ops should use the men's room too then. All transwomen are gender-variant BTW

[Blanche]

Pre-ops have a female GI. And about not being "modern", I'm from Switzerland, a country much more advanced & progressive than any in the world, even the States.  Men are not allowed in the women's toilets here.

[melissa90299]

Pre-ops have a female GI. And about not being "modern", I'm from Switzerland, a country much more advanced & progressive than any in the world, even the States.  Men are not allowed in the women's toilets here.

Then I guess you aren't as progressive as we are in San Francisco. People are allowed to use the restroom that fits their self-identified gender. I have been using restrooms in California for three years and have not run into a single problem as a result of this policy.

Of all people, transpeople have a moral obligation to promote inclusivity and tolerance.

[Rachael]

i think were going overboard here... constantly redefining whos alowed and who isnt... and its funny, because nobody here at the end of the day has the final say... its natal women who get to exclude anyone... and yes melissa, that can include postops too, your not invulnerable.
R