Should biological origin of transsexualism even matter in an ethical argument?

[Shana A]

well, then you're not ts, it is that simple!

the only reason why a transsexual woman can not have surgery is medical, that's it.  no buts.  period.

Non-op TS is a legitimate category in the Benjamin standards... having surgery isn't a requirement to be considered TS. It is among the possible, and popular, options to cure the condition. But it isn't the only option. Another possibility is that someone could be transgenderist, although that word doesn't seem to be used by many people these days.

To get back on topic, I don't believe that biological origin matters in an ethical discussion.

y2g

[Valentina]

I JUST DONT LIKE SURGERY, PERIOD.

Transsexuals need surgery so liking it or not liking it is out of the question. When one needs something, the rest becomes irrelevant.

Posted on: November 24, 2007, 12:02:26 PMBut then again if one isnt transsexual, one will never know.  I hope all the peeps who are giving their opinion here regarding "transsexualism" are TS, how anyone who isnt transsexual would know?  Unless one lives within this skin and experiences the sorrows and pain of transsexualism, then one knows.  Otherwise peeps have no business answering a topic they know nothing about.  It is like asking the cisgender to talk about transsexuals, they will never know how we feel, so their opinion is irrelevant.

[ChildOfTheLight]

transsexuals have problems with being lumped in with LGBTs, and serious biological studies would certainly refute the logic of that. There are men who choose to act/dress like women, and they lie and claim to be TSs and women. the biological argument is the only way to stop such lies and fraud. once biology proves that TSs are neither gay nor TGs, their rights may skyrocket. the only reasons TSs are mistreated is because they are lumped in with LGBTs or choose to associate with them. Punishment stops when the behavior which is used to justify it stops.

Katia, I think you're going to be proven right, but you aren't going to like it.

It hasn't been shown yet, but I believe medical science will show that transsexuals indeed have sexually dimorphic parts of their brains corresponding to the normal range for their target sexes rather than their birth sexes.  But I believe it will show that transgendered people do not have those parts corresponding to their birth sexes either.  Suddenly, some people who were happy about their pet theories being proven right won't be too happy to be stuck sharing biological company with us "freaks, fetishists, and men in dresses" for all time.

Also, I'm pretty sure that transsexuals get harassed for other reasons than being associated with gays and bisexuals.  They get harassed for what they are -- you say women born with a male body, the harassers say men pretending to be women.  As so many people (correctly) say: it's about gender, not sexuality.

(Switch words regarding gender for FtMs.)

As far as I can tell, I'm not a man, and I'm not a woman.  I'm both, and therefore I'm neither.  Sometimes my male body feels OK, sometimes it feels quite wrong.  I'm not transitioning -- even if I wanted to, and I sometimes do think about it, what would I transition to?  What does all this make me?  Freak?  (Probably.)  Man in a dress?  (I am male, and I have worn a dress.)  MtF in denial?  (Sometimes I think so.)  Non-op-male-to-androgyne transsexual?  (Talk about a term to get people mad!)

Right now, I like MTWTF.  You can probably figure that one out.

But as long as you're living your life in a way that makes you happy, and not being mean to others, none of this matters too much.  I learned that from Kate Bornstein, who, as you may recall, is a post-op MtF who decided she didn't really feel like a woman either.  Have fun with that one.

Whatever.  I've rambled enough.

[Valentina]

Kate Borstein is someone that is not heard by too many transsexuals anymore.  She's famous for her books and her theory of gender being more than binary.  She's entitled to that opinion, but even here in Bulgaria, she is not well seen in the transsexual community because her ideology of gender has switched to something other than binary that true transsexuals don't share.  So she's getting respect amongst the androgyne community but losing the same respect amongst the transsexual community.  Same old, same old...an androgyne that didnt know who 'she' was, thought 'she' was transsexual, had GRS & then oops, 'she' realised 'she' had made a mistake and decided to adopt other term for her indentification.  Sounds convenient!

[Nero]

Kate Borstein is someone that is not heard by too many transsexuals anymore.  She's famous for her books and her theory of gender being more than binary.  She's entitled to that opinion, but even here in Bulgaria, she is not well seen in the transsexual community because her ideology of gender has switched to something other than binary that true transsexuals don't share.  So she's getting respect amongst the androgyne community but losing the same respect amongst the transsexual community.  Same old, same old...an androgyne that didnt know who 'she' was, thought 'she' was transsexual, had GRS & then oops, 'she' realised 'she' had made a mistake and decided to adopt other term for her indentification.  Sounds convenient!

You hit the nail! There is a big difference between women and those who won't even call themselves women. Androgyne is a valid identity, nothing wrong with that. But when people call themselves transsexual but not men or women, it just muddies everything. I had a big issue with a popular gender therapist identifying as an 'ftm transsexual' and 'not-male' in the same breath. These types need to recognize most transsexuals don't feel that way, and that when they're in the spotlight about transsexualism declaring they are neither man nor woman just further confuses the public as to what transsexualism really is.

[Valentina]

These types need to recognize most transsexuals don't feel that way, and that when they're in the spotlight about transsexualism declaring they are neither man nor woman just further confuses the public as to what transsexualism really is.

I quite agree.  Nothing wrong with being TV, CD, androgyne but when peeps want to be both TV and TS or androgyne and TS, that confuses the public and makes you lose respect amongs peeps of the community that are true transsexuals, true TV's or true androgynes.  In the end it affects everybody.  I respect everybody even though dont share many of their beliefs.  But when someone is trying to damage the image of true members of the community by identifying with too many terms at once, then I get enraged and open my mouth.

[ChildOfTheLight]

These types need to recognize most transsexuals don't feel that way, and that when they're in the spotlight about transsexualism declaring they are neither man nor woman just further confuses the public as to what transsexualism really is.

I quite agree.  Nothing wrong with being TV, CD, androgyne but when peeps want to be both TV and TS or androgyne and TS, that confuses the public and makes you lose respect amongs peeps of the community that are true transsexuals, true TV's or true androgynes.  In the end it affects everybody.  I respect everybody even though dont share many of their beliefs.  But when someone is trying to damage the image of true members of the community by identifying with too many terms at once, then I get enraged and open my mouth.

I'm really starting to dislike this definition of "true." 

I would say, though, that true community brings us together, rather than dividing us.

[Nero]

Hello Jeanette,

1.) But according to the definitions of both sites, all those terms are subcategories of TRANSGENDER, So?

"This is not intended to be a glossary of all tg related terms. This just defines the make-up of the community on this site. "
                                                          ^Transgendered


2.) I see it very plainly, And I assume (maybe wrongly) That you are a TS (i.e.GID), so let me have a chance to explain my theory on this

Male for example
a CD feels 49% or less woman in his mind, he is comfortable with his greater half dominating
a TS feels 49% or less Man in her mind, I Do not think it takes a individual a full 100% women mind to be TS, just enough to expierience GID

TRUE CD's are not dressing for sexual arousal, those are Tranvestites, so in theory they are doing so to satisfy a degree of a instinct within them, I call it feminity, and to me feminity is a born with Trait!!!

This isnt documented and is solely a perception, I would really like a public view of what they think of it, see if it can work for you, aplly it yourself and think about where you fall.

I believe it is easy to realize that even Women have some degree of Masculinity.
I do not believe that a person is not either (black or white/ 0% or 100%) we are mixes thereof.

I would like to hear peoples mixes (ratios)


AND IT IS FOR THESE REASONS THAT I SAY IT IS A BIOLOGICAL TRAIT, because it is all in your head and you born with it.

I think we're confusing male and female with masculinity and femininity here.

49% or less WOMAN = Androgyne
49% or less MAN = Androgyne

49% or less FEMININE = 49% or less FEMININE
49% or less MASCULINE = 49% or less MASCULINE

Anything less than 100% WOMAN = NOT FEMALE

A WOMAN can be 50% or less MASCULINE and still be a WOMAN.

I am 100% MAN but I am not 100% MASCULINE

See the difference?
Gender is independent of personality traits and interests.

[ChildOfTheLight]

So what makes someone "100% woman" or "100% man?"

[Jordan]

So what makes someone "100% woman" or "100% man?"

Yeah I agree what is it then?

To me it was your feminity and masculinity that make you those things, not always but if I feel very feminine inside myslef then I consider myself a woman right?

and if it isnt feminity and masculinity then what is it?

Posted on: November 24, 2007, 02:03:03 PMNever Mind, I read some posts nero that you wrote in the ANDRO cat and it all makes sense to me know.

You are wise TY

Mara

[Enigma]

So what makes someone "100% woman" or "100% man?"

Yeah I agree what is it then?

To me it was your feminity and masculinity that make you those things, not always but if I feel very feminine inside myslef then I consider myself a woman right?

and if it isnt feminity and masculinity then what is it?

Masculinity or Femininity doesn't make you a man or a woman, there is a lot of masculinity and femininity in the LGB (i'm purposely excluding T here) community, yet which part of it belongs to biological women and which part belongs to biological men (again I'm purposely avoiding cisgender references)?

[tinkerbell]

well, then you're not ts, it is that simple!

the only reason why a transsexual woman can not have surgery is medical, that's it.  no buts.  period.

Non-op TS is a legitimate category in the Benjamin standards...

True it is, but there's a story behind that term.  I think I posted this in the past but anyway.  Initially the term non-op transsexual was introduced by Harry Benjamin to identify those transsexual people who couldn't have SRS due to medical reasons.  Eventually, the term became a wee bit less stern and more people started to identify with it, especially those who couldn't afford surgery.  However, IMO, I think that there people out there who aren't transsexual but identify with this term as a way to justify their behavior.  I have met people in the past who wanted to have their penis enlarged surgically but said they were non-op TS

This is the kind of behavior that needs to stop.  If you can't have surgery for medical or financial reasons, then yes, you are a non-op transsexual (some will prefer the term pre-op though but whatever..).  Nevertheless, a transsexual will never choose to have *that thing* enlarged instead of having it removed.  I mean, IMO, that is just repugnant and doesnt fit the definition of TS.

tink

[Enigma]

Nevertheless, a transsexual will never choose to have *that thing* enlarged instead of having it removed.  I mean, IMO, that is just repugnant and doesnt fit the definition of TS.

If that's the life you chose, who am I to judge?  Along the same lines, is there a term that covers those individuals that hasn't been coined by the porn industy?

[tinkerbell]

Nevertheless, a transsexual will never choose to have *that thing* enlarged instead of having it removed.  I mean, IMO, that is just repugnant and doesnt fit the definition of TS.

If that's the life you chose, who am I to judge?  Along the same lines, is there a term that covers those individuals that hasn't been coined by the porn industy?

I am not judging anyone.  If they want to do with their bodies whatever they please, I could care less.  But they shouldn't call themselves TS or women because they aren't.  In my view, they aren't and I have every right to think the way I do even though you may not agree with me.  You have your beliefs and I have mine.  Thank you very much.

tink

[Enigma]

Nevertheless, a transsexual will never choose to have *that thing* enlarged instead of having it removed.  I mean, IMO, that is just repugnant and doesnt fit the definition of TS.

If that's the life you chose, who am I to judge?  Along the same lines, is there a term that covers those individuals that hasn't been coined by the porn industy?

I am not judging anyone.  If they want to do with their bodies whatever they please, I could care less.  But they shouldn't call themselves TS or women because they aren't.  In my view, they aren't and I have every right to think the way I do even though you may not agree with me.  You have your beliefs and I have mine.  Thank you very much.

tink

I'm sorry, I wasn't judging you (or anyone else for that matter).  I'm sorry it came across that way.

My original question still remains, do we have a term for someone that chooses to alter their body to appear more female but chooses to keep, and even enlarge, their male genitals, etc?  Tell me its something less crass then "She Male".

[tinkerbell]

According to the policies/TOS of this site, people here should adhere to these definitions:


https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html

I would also suggest everyone to review the TOS at the following link because I am sensing that people are getting things blown up way out of proportion here.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html

tink

[Keira]

Tink, while I agree that one with an extreme level of GID
needs surgery, who's to say that intermediate levels of GID
are not biologically based too and legitimate on their own.

Or that if different genes are the cause of GID, its expression
can be through an aversion to somatype incongruency or
social incongruency or both.

Maybe some TS just don't want to lumped with those
intermediate GID, which should probably be named
something else than TS for clarity since they are not
truely going the full way accross the gender boundaries.

Still, I think discounting intermediate GID's as misguided
or delusional is based on nothing, and I don't think
it can be sustained in any way.




is

[Shana A]

True it is, but there's a story behind that term.  I think I posted this in the past but anyway.  Initially the term non-op transsexual was introduced by Harry Benjamin to identify those transsexual people who couldn't have SRS due to medical reasons.  Eventually, the term became a wee bit less stern and more people started to identify with it, especially those who couldn't afford surgery.

Tink,

Thanks for the info, I didn't know the complete history behind the term.

You hit the nail! There is a big difference between women and those who won't even call themselves women. Androgyne is a valid identity, nothing wrong with that. But when people call themselves transsexual but not men or women, it just muddies everything.

When Kate's books were published in the early 90s, she was among the first post-ops I heard talk of being neither gender, nobody was using the term androgyne to describe this back then.

Terminology changes as people learn and discover new aspects of being transgender. This is all still very new, and not everyone uses the same terminology to describe their inner realities..

zythyra

[katia]

I learned that from Kate Bornstein, who, as you may recall, is a post-op MtF who decided she didn't really feel like a woman either.  Have fun with that one.

Whatever.  I've rambled enough.

ha ha ha ha you said it yourself.   kate bornstein is just a person who happens to be postop but "she" isnt a male to female transsexual and now "she" doesnt identify as a "woman" so i'm not sure if i should be using feminine pronouns.  she says "she decided she didn't really 'feel like a woman' either"  say what?  either you are a woman or you arent.  "feeling 'like' a woman" doesn't make you one.  i think valentina said 25% of what i would have said about bornstein.  i really dont wanna say what i think about "that woman" because i'd be breaking the site rules if i did

[Jordan]

Tink, while I agree that one with an extreme level of GID
needs surgery, who's to say that intermediate levels of GID
are not biologically based too and legitimate on their own.

Or that if different genes are the cause of GID, its expression
can be through an aversion to somatype incongruency or
social incongruency or both.

Maybe some TS just don't want to lumped with those
intermediate GID, which should probably be named
something else than TS for clarity since they are not
truely going the full way accross the gender boundaries.

Still, I think discounting intermediate GID's as misguided
or delusional is based on nothing, and I don't think
it can be sustained in any way.

Let me begin by saying I am one of these people, however, I have realised that there may not be a such thing as a intermidiate case of GID, I believe that a better term would be:

M2F Androgyne or F2M Androgyne (substitute Genderqueer where it applies)

I feel know that, that fits me better than Transexual, also I noticed how pissed off TS's get when you idetify with them but want to keep your genitals. LOL.

I could still be wrong and who knows maybe I am in denial about not wanting SRS, but I dont hate anything let alone my birth genitals.

I have never felt ones reproductive organs is what make one a Man or Women, and personally hate surgery, fear it, loathe it.
I cannot say that I know 100% I am not a transsexual, or that I am 100% a M2F Andro, but this is the sole thing I have been trying to figure out since I came to this Website around 7 days ago, I apoligize to all the TS's who were offended by myself.