Chin (Jaw) procedures

[anjaq]

Hi

Ok, maybe you can help me along. I am trying to work out what I can do about my chin and jaw area for feminization.

I have gotten a VFFS simulation done - it is the lower row in these pictures, the upper one is the original:


Edit : Here is the link to fullsize: http://3.1m.yt/WGppx6_.png

I personally feel that something is missing but I am not sure what exactly.
What do you think should be done in addition to what was simulated - which essentialy is probably mainly a burring of the sides of the chin and the part of the jaw next to the chin.

Do you think more bone work makes sense? I tried to just shorten the chin more, but it looks odd then in proportion ot the whole face.

Or is the problem maybe a soft tissue problem? Should I consider a neck lift?

What about these two procedures: Botox for the mental muscle and Fillers for the mental crease - would they make sense and are there any permanent solutions for those two treatments?



Thanks for the input.

[Dani]

Anjaq,

With the pictures you posted, I do not see much of any difference between before and after VFFS.

Also the pictures are smaller than what we usually see here at Susan's Place. It is difficult for us to make any recommendation.

Are the videos of yourself? If so, then, you do not need any additional FFS.

[EmmaLoo]

The chin and jawline in the VFFS are realistic and symmetrical, which is ideal. The element that's throwing me off is your lips. You should add a lip lift to reduce the distance between the upper lip and nose and add some filler in both the upper and lower lips to achieve more flattering proportions. The lip lift should give your top lip a better upward curl as well. Small procedure, big result.

[anjaq]

Sorry for the small picture. Forum seems to reduce the size if I insert it as picture. I copied a link in the post which has the full size.

No, I am not the women in the videos - those are rather random Youtube videos on the procedures I was thinking about.

I know about the advise to get a lip lift and filling, but I have three issues with it. One is that I feel it looks odd if I try to simulate it with a toothpick pulling up the lip. The next is that lip fillers are only lasting maybe a year or less, so this would be a constant issue to patch up. I read in Dr O's book that he did it with dermal grafts, but I do not think anyone else does it that way anymore? Fillers bring in more regular money, I guess. The third one is the scar from a lip lift. it is quite in a visible area and I usually scar visibly - which is why I will also avoid a hairline incision. I was told that it usually is not very visible and can easily be covered with makeup anyways. I never use makeup however. The surgeon I spoke to told me honestly that if I cannot live with an outcome where I would have to cover it with makup to make it disappear, I should consider if I really need it. The scar runs horizontally under the nose, which is a quite visible place. I read that some surgoens seem to use a endonasal cut, but have not yet found anyone who does it - I would have to look for someone to do this, probably not at the same time as FFS then.

This is a simulation that included the lip lift:



Yet the other topic was the chin and jaw and I still feel that even with the upper lip out of the picture, it does not yet feel and look right.

[lovelessheart]

Hi

Ok, maybe you can help me along. I am trying to work out what I can do about my chin and jaw area for feminization.

I have gotten a VFFS simulation done - it is the lower row in these pictures, the upper one is the original:


Edit : Here is the link to fullsize: http://3.1m.yt/WGppx6_.png

I personally feel that something is missing but I am not sure what exactly.
What do you think should be done in addition to what was simulated - which essentialy is probably mainly a burring of the sides of the chin and the part of the jaw next to the chin.

Do you think more bone work makes sense? I tried to just shorten the chin more, but it looks odd then in proportion ot the whole face.

Or is the problem maybe a soft tissue problem? Should I consider a neck lift?

What about these two procedures: Botox for the mental muscle and Fillers for the mental crease - would they make sense and are there any permanent solutions for those two treatments?



Thanks for the input. Do

I would say you could benefit for a neck lift as well . My Dr will be doing this along with my ffs next month. And something about a neck corset to make a feminine neck .. I'm not quite sure exactly how it works..just k ow it will feminize my neck and make my newly jaw and Chin look better.

[anjaq]

Yes, I guess neck lift would be an option. Some surgeons will not do it while doing FFS because of the swelling, others will do it at the same time anyways and save another surgery by that. I am not sure what the benefits of it exactly are, or what the risks of it are. I assume one gets another set of scars in front of the ears, probably? And maybe again some nerves are cut there as well?

What the heck is a neck corset? Is it a surgical procedure or literally some device or fabric that you have to wear to reshape your neck? I had to think of this African tribe that puts rings around the necks to make them longer

[lovelessheart]

Yes, I guess neck lift would be an option. Some surgeons will not do it while doing FFS because of the swelling, others will do it at the same time anyways and save another surgery by that. I am not sure what the benefits of it exactly are, or what the risks of it are. I assume one gets another set of scars in front of the ears, probably? And maybe again some nerves are cut there as well?

What the heck is a neck corset? Is it a surgical procedure or literally some device or fabric that you have to wear to reshape your neck? I had to think of this African tribe that puts rings around the necks to make them longer

Well from the information I have gotten this far, my incision will be behind the ear, as I'm also getting a lower face lift to tighten everything up. But I thought the same thing as you. No, it's tightning of the neck muscles ...to my knowledge .. I'll find out more info for you.

[anjaq]

Thanks. Will be interesting to know. Scars behind the ears sound ok, but I am not sure that will work as the ears are sort of fixed, right? Cannot move them back to pull the skin in front of them... Have you decided on a surgeont o do this and will it be part of the FFS in your case? It seems many FFS surgeons want to do soft tissue stuff later, once the swelling has gone down to make sure it all works better

[lovelessheart]

Thanks. Will be interesting to know. Scars behind the ears sound ok, but I am not sure that will work as the ears are sort of fixed, right? Cannot move them back to pull the skin in front of them... Have you decided on a surgeont o do this and will it be part of the FFS in your case? It seems many FFS surgeons want to do soft tissue stuff later, once the swelling has gone down to make sure it all works better

Yes I'm having surgery next month with Dr zukowski

[Wednesday]

To me the things you may benefit the more in your lower face are both lip lift and upper lip filling.

In regards to lip lift (and I really know what you mean by not scarring so well, got the same problem) for me it would be really worth doing even if I would end with a visible scar (they are not so big nor visible). It really makes a difference to your lower third, not just by féminizing but also by rejuvenating and beautyfing.

As for the lip permanent filling you may want to have a look on "permalip". Permalip is a silicon implant for the lip. Its easy to place (its just a minor procedure done usually under local sedation). Its a pretty safe permanent solution like most surgical implants are (and again like most implants you can have it removed or replaced easily).

I will advice strongly on having those two procedures done. They are pretty minor surgeries and may have way more impact on your face than chin+jaw work (at least by What is seen in the pictures you provided).

[anjaq]

To me the things you may benefit the more in your lower face are both lip lift and upper lip filling.

I included a simulation above of that as well, but I am not that impressed by it either - I am not entirely sure I like the effect. I tried to pull up my lip with a toothpick in front of the mirror and it did not look really great in my view. Maybe because it gives the mouth a bit of a inverted U shape as the corners are not pulled up with it.

In regards to lip lift (and I really know what you mean by not scarring so well, got the same problem) for me it would be really worth doing even if I would end with a visible scar (they are not so big nor visible). It really makes a difference to your lower third, not just by féminizing but also by rejuvenating and beautyfing.

I was told this by some people, yes. I am not yet sure if I would be willing to carry a visible scar as a tradeoff though - it makes the lip ugly to see a scar there which then compensates for the beautification of a nicer lip to a degree. Ans so far I was not that impüressed with the attempts to visualize the improvements of the lip from a lift. Maybe the lip augmentation would be more worth it?

As for the lip permanent filling you may want to have a look on "permalip". Permalip is a silicon implant for the lip. Its easy to place (its just a minor procedure done usually under local sedation). Its a pretty safe permanent solution like most surgical implants are (and again like most implants you can have it removed or replaced easily).

I do not like implants. I had breast implants and they gave me trouble and I had them removed eventually. My body seems to dislike foreign parts - I also had to take out a rod in my leg from a broken bone because it gave me trouble. They said it can just remain, originally, but I had impariments from it.

I could try fillers to see if I like the effect, maybe and then if I do get something more permanent. I read in Dr O's book about the method he uses and it sounds great, but apparently this is rather exotic - I have not read aboout this anywhere else:

I will advice strongly on having those two procedures done. They are pretty minor surgeries and may have way more impact on your face than chin+jaw work (at least by What is seen in the pictures you provided).

I guess they do make sense, yes. But they will not fix my impression of my chin and jaw, I guess. I feel that maybe it is in part the shape of it - with the crease there and also it just is a bit too much mass. Plus the chin does have a bit of a straight horizontal part at the bottom.

[Wednesday]

I included a simulation above of that as well, but I am not that impressed by it either - I am not entirely sure I like the effect. I tried to pull up my lip with a toothpick in front of the mirror and it did not look really great in my view. Maybe because it gives the mouth a bit of a inverted U shape as the corners are not pulled up with it.

Keep in mind two things. For one side, VFFS simulations are well only on the conservative side, this means usually your surgeon could be able to get bigger and more noticeable changes, specially if asked to. On the other side (and I really know what you mean) trying to figure out the outcome from a lip lift is really hard, and your method may not be completely accurate, as isn't accurate to figure out how a nose tip rotation upwards is going to look just by pushing your nose with your finger. I think you may get a much better and accurate by looking at plenty of before/after pictures, thus you may be able to extrapolate safely. Its a procedure really worth considering IMHO.

I guess they do make sense, yes. But they will not fix my impression of my chin and jaw, I guess. I feel that maybe it is in part the shape of it - with the crease there and also it just is a bit too much mass. Plus the chin does have a bit of a straight horizontal part at the bottom.

Yeah, I get what you mean. Usually chin+jaw reduction has more impact on jaw size/dimensions than on jaw shape. Chin implants may help big time in changing your jaw's appearance, giving a really noticeable V-shape, but they may not be a solution for you given your previous experiences. Maybe some tissue graft or bone paste piece placed like a chin implant could work for you. Think its worth talking with doctors about this one.

[anjaq]

Keep in mind two things. For one side, VFFS simulations are well only on the conservative side, this means usually your surgeon could be able to get bigger and more noticeable changes, specially if asked to. On the other side (and I really know what you mean) trying to figure out the outcome from a lip lift is really hard, and your method may not be completely accurate, as isn't accurate to figure out how a nose tip rotation upwards is going to look just by pushing your nose with your finger.

Yes its hard to say but its the only way so far to check it. I saw some people who had done a lip lift that was more noticeable but that looked even odder to me - showing too much teeth whenever they opened the mouth even slightly. Essentially it DID look like that simulation with the toothpick but apparently they regarded it as a positive result, so I am not sure

Yeah, I get what you mean. Usually chin+jaw reduction has more impact on jaw size/dimensions than on jaw shape. Chin implants may help big time in changing your jaw's appearance, giving a really noticeable V-shape, but they may not be a solution for you given your previous experiences. Maybe some tissue graft or bone paste piece placed like a chin implant could work for you. Think its worth talking with doctors about this one.

I may be getting something wrong here, but Implants would rather enlarge the chin even more - I certainly do not want this. I want the chin size a bit reduced and tapered, but also would want the jaw to be more tapered and less heavy. Also I am not happy with the shape of the chin in the profile - which however seems to be more of a soft tissue problem than a bone problem.

[Wednesday]

I saw some people who had done a lip lift that was more noticeable but that looked even odder to me - showing too much teeth whenever they opened the mouth even slightly. Essentially it DID look like that simulation with the toothpick but apparently they regarded it as a positive result, so I am not sure.

Keep in mind that by lip augmentation you can add more volume where its needed, so no teeth showing =P

I may be getting something wrong here, but Implants would rather enlarge the chin even more - I certainly do not want this. I want the chin size a bit reduced and tapered, but also would want the jaw to be more tapered and less heavy. Also I am not happy with the shape of the chin in the profile - which however seems to be more of a soft tissue problem than a bone problem.

Yup, it may add a bit volume but also will change the shape giving you a more V. You can combine it with jaw-chin reduction. Lemme ilustrate an example for a front view (i'm not good at photoshop, so quality is crap):



I think something like this would be possible to obtain. Also I added a bit more volume to your upper lift. If you observe although it adds a little height to your chin, it changes the shape big time giving a more feminine appearance (imho). Just an option tho.

[anjaq]

Thanks, but I do not think adding height to the chin is what I want. The height is presently a little bit over the ideal lines - so a bit of shortening would make sense, although not much is needed there in the center. I would rather see if they can take away more at the sides, especially the lower jaw. I believe taking away bone is more feminizing than adding more. The only areas where I think addind something makes sense is the lip volume and the cheeks. Sadly fat grafts in the lips and other fillers are very short lived.

[Wednesday]

I would rather see if they can take away more at the sides, especially the lower jaw. I believe taking away bone is more feminizing than adding more.

Yup, this would be ideal. Also as you noted lifting the skin may help a lot, but this depends on how much loose skin you have. There are options besides surgical facelifts like thread liftings and collagen stimulating treatments (Radiesse infiltration, microneedling with rollers, Tretinoin creams, etc). It might be worth to take a look on them too.

Sadly fat grafts in the lips and other fillers are very short lived.

I know, this is pretty annoying >.<

Anyway, as far as I know, it depends pretty much on how well fat grafts are placed and how well our body vascularizes around them. Might be worth looking for long-term patients from a particular surgeon to figure if its possible to get good long-term results.

I had breast implants and they gave me trouble and I had them removed eventually.

May I ask what problems they gave you? Encapsulation? Where they placed a long time ago? I say that because nowadays better implants are available with reduced rejection risks.

[anjaq]

Yup, this would be ideal. Also as you noted lifting the skin may help a lot, but this depends on how much loose skin you have. There are options besides surgical facelifts like thread liftings and collagen stimulating treatments (Radiesse infiltration, microneedling with rollers, Tretinoin creams, etc). It might be worth to take a look on them too.

I think most of those like microneedling are "soft" ways to do subtle changes - I doubt they can create a lot of change

May I ask what problems they gave you? Encapsulation? Where they placed a long time ago? I say that because nowadays better implants are available with reduced rejection risks.

Yes it was encapsulation, also rotation of the implant and stretching of the breasts, I believe. Its always a risk, they claim that implants are so much better today but really,, they are just somehow improved, not that much different. They also like to say they can be in there for life, but realistically after 15 or 20 years a revision is probably needed.

[Wednesday]

I think most of those like microneedling are "soft" ways to do subtle changes - I doubt they can create a lot of change.

Yup, outcomes are usually not so dramatical as with surgical procedures, but less efficacy than expected is also a thing that happens with some surgeries. It really depends on the particular case.

Usually there are no one-shot-miracle solutions, and eficcacy tends to rely on accurately addresing the problems and applying all resources available to get rid of them. Some soft solutions may do subtle changes when applied stand-alone, but mixed and combined, may bring noticeable differences.