How to ask if I was exposed to DES

[RachelH]

Oh Devlyn!!!  Hee hee! 

Michelle, I checked mine and I am about as close to a 1 as I think you can get. Depending on how I hold my hand the ring finger appears slightly longer but when I measured them they were exactly the same.

Dawn, thank you!  I'll check more out.

And thank you to everyone so far!!  I love this place!!!!
Paula

[Dena]

This can be misleading. My figures are near equal length, I have no body hair on my chest/back or neck but I have pubic and leg hair. Even as a male my body has somewhat of a feminine shape and jeans with a more feminine cut fit better than male jeans.  I was the first child and my mother conceived me 1 month after they married. According to my mother, all she receive when she was carrying me was calcium. The fly in the ointment is that in my early 20's I had a testosterone test and my levels were in the low end of the male range. This makes me suspect I was transsexual because I didn't produce sufficient testosterone to masculinize me when my mother was carrying me instead of DES exposure.

[Michelle_P]

I'm quite certain of having DES exposure for myself and one brother.  Mom had a series of miscarriages before I was born, and again for that brother.  Like many family medicine cabinets, old prescription pills lingered in there for many years.  I remember seeing that brown glass bottle of 'Stilbesterol Prenatal Vitamins".   Mom confirmed that she had taken DES back in 2007, when we were filling out a questionnaire for a very long term study she had been enrolled in since nursing school almost 60 years before.  Both my brother and I had typical symptoms, undescended testicles, and in his case hypospadias.  Later I did not start puberty, and had no body hair, until being treated with testosterone injections as part of my care for both this and 'behavioral issues', that is, I went through conversion therapy 1968 style.

I never did have much body hair, and my 2D:4D ratio is 1.0 (both fingers 72 mm long).  There are a number of other anomalies that have been widely reported.

2D:4D ratio by itself is not all that telling.  There is a tremendous overlap.

[Deborah]

My mother told me she took DES after she read about it in the newspaper.  My body had always had sparse hair while the hair on my head has remained thick.  My arms have that 30 degree angle and while building upper body strength is not impossible, it is difficult.  My voice is also on the high side of male.  In spite of all that, my T before HRT was pretty high.  So it's all kind of mixed up and weird.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

[zirconia]

Interesting. I just measured both hands, and my 2d:4d ratio in either from tip to crease seems to be a bit over 1.08 (just barely touching) to a bit over 1.09 (if pressing firmly). I'm quite surprised that the bell curve in Michelle's chart above stops at 1.04, as I never thought that a length difference of just six or seven millimeters could be too uncommon.

[RavenMoon]

My 2D:4D ratio looks just like my daughter's with a longer index and shorter ring finger. my son's index finger is much shorter.

I was not exposed to DES. I have other secondary sexual characteristics of a typical female. Unfortunately body hair is not one of them. [emoji53] But then my Italian mom was on the hairy side too. Lol


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[Wednesday]

Interesting. I just measured both hands, and my 2d:4d ratio in either from tip to crease seems to be a bit over 1.08 (just barely touching) to a bit over 1.09 (if pressing firmly). I'm quite surprised that the bell curve in Michelle's chart above stops at 1.04, as I never thought that a length difference of just six or seven millimeters could be too uncommon.

Yup, mine is as yours and I too found is pretty uncommon. Most women have both fingers almost about the same lenght (1-2mm). In fact, my mom has both fingers equal and both my father and brother have the ring finger longer (negative ratios as usual for men).

I hadn't been exposed to DES though (spanish, born 1987).

On the 2D:4D finger ratio subject I found this graphic time ago from a scientific study correlating childrens features and finger ratios:



It correlates with me too.

[DawnOday]

Yup, mine is as yours and I too found is pretty uncommon. Most women have both fingers almost about same lenght (1-2mm). In fact, my mom has both fingers equal and both my father and brother have the ring finger longer (negative ratios as usual for men).

I hadn't been exposed to DES though (spanish, born 1987).

In the late 2000s, several studies showed that the grandchildren of women who had consumed DES also suffered medical issues. By the early decades of the twenty-first century, roughly ten million people in the US had been exposed to DES, and three generations of individuals had suffered medical issues due to DES exposure. Researchers class DES as an endocrine disruptor, which affects the form and function of the hormone (endocrine) system.

[Wednesday]

In the late 2000s, several studies showed that the grandchildren of women who had consumed DES also suffered medical issues. By the early decades of the twenty-first century, roughly ten million people in the US had been exposed to DES, and three generations of individuals had suffered medical issues due to DES exposure. Researchers class DES as an endocrine disruptor, which affects the form and function of the hormone (endocrine) system.

Whoa, I had no idea it was that bad. Does it happen just with maternal grandmas or with paternal grandmas too? Anyway I have no clue right now about any of mines being exposed or not.

I have to note when my mom's was pregnant with me she got different symptoms (amount of weight gained, hunger, etc) to thoe ones experienced when pregnant with my little brother (6 years between both, when I was born she was 30, when my brother, 36).

By the way I was conceived outside of marriage

[Devlyn]

Interesting. I just measured both hands, and my 2d:4d ratio in either from tip to crease seems to be a bit over 1.08 (just barely touching) to a bit over 1.09 (if pressing firmly). I'm quite surprised that the bell curve in Michelle's chart above stops at 1.04, as I never thought that a length difference of just six or seven millimeters could be too uncommon.

Yup, mine is as yours and I too found is pretty uncommon. Most women have both fingers almost about the same lenght (1-2mm). In fact, my mom has both fingers equal and both my father and brother have the ring finger longer (negative ratios as usual for men).

I hadn't been exposed to DES though (spanish, born 1987).

On the 2D:4D finger ratio subject I found this graphic time ago from a scientific study correlating childrens features and finger ratios:



It correlates with me too.

Your link is no good, and what are we looking at here? Looks like someone going from a smile to a frown, but that doesn't change the length of your fingers. Can you decipher this for us?

Hugs, Devlyn

[Michelle_P]

Unfortunately DES research has turned up indications that the drug has epigenetic effects, altering the genome in ways that can be passed on to subsequent generations. This has been demonstrated in mouse models.

Something like this may also be involved in human fetal exposure, flipping genetic switches in specialized stem cells before they generate various tissues such as components of the brain.

https://breast-cancer-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/bcr3649

Developing germ cells undergo epigenetic erasure when they, as primordial germ cells, enter into the fetal gonads around embryonic day 10 to 11 (in mice and rats), and then undergo gender-specific reprogramming as germ cells [98]. It is now clear that reprogramming of these cells is susceptible to modifications caused by changes in fetal hormonal environment, such as resulting from an exposure to DES or other endocrine disruptors. Consequently, these exposures can leave a permanent biochemical footprint on the genome of the F1 generation germ cells, and this change may be inherited by the F2 generation germ line and several subsequent generations.

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[Wednesday]

What are we looking at here? Looks like someone going from a smile to a frown, but that doesn't change the length of your fingers. Can you decipher this for us?

Sure! If you look closely to the pictures, you'll notice that the more on the left the pic is, the smaller chin/jaw are, and the bigger and rounder forehead is.

On the other side, the more on the right the pic, the wider/bulkier chin/jaw are, and the short and squared the forehead is.

Those pictures are a computer designed portrait that shows the average face for a given 2D:4D finger ratio (based on lots of photos of real children faces correlated to their finger ratios).

The more on the left the pic is, the higher 2D:4D finger ratio (index finger longer than ring finger), those are the feminized finger ratios (more estrogen exposure in utero).

The more on the right the pic is, the lower 2D:4D finger ratio (index finger shorter than ring finger), those are the masculinized finger ratios (more androgen exposure in utero).

Hope it makes sense!

[Wednesday]

https://breast-cancer-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/bcr3649

Im gonna check that link! Thanks!

[RachelH]

Sure! If you look closely to the pictures, you'll notice that the more on the left the pic is, the smaller chin/jaw are, and the bigger and rounder forehead is.

On the other side, the more on the right the pic, the wider/bulkier chin/jaw are, and the short and squared the forehead is.

Those pictures are a computer designed portrait that shows the average face for a given 2D:4D finger ratio (based on lots of photos of real children faces correlated to their finger ratios).

The more on the left the pic is, the higher 2D:4D finger ratio (index finger longer than ring finger), those are the feminized finger ratios (more estrogen exposure in utero).

The more on the right the pic is, the lower 2D:4D finger ratio (index finger shorter than ring finger), those are the masculinized finger ratios (more androgen exposure in utero).

Hope it makes sense!

The funny thing is I am right at a 1 and I would say I am right there but I just have a big head.