I feel like I'm missing out

[Tasha.McKenna]

I started HRT 4 months ago. For the first 10 weeks I used the patches, I shifted over to weekly injections of estradiol valerate about 6 weeks ago. I'm currently taking what I believe to be the maximum allowable dose. I'm also taking spiro, finasteride, and progesterone.

So far the results have been kind of disappointing - I don't feel *any* different.

Physically the only change I've noticed is a tiny bit of gynomastia, although it's small enough that I could go shirtless right now and no one would notice. There were some negative side effects early on (joint aches, etc) but they have gone away. I do feel light-headed sometimes because of the spiro (it lowers blood pressure), sometimes when I get up off the couch I feel dizzy.

In my first week on the patches, I felt a little bit of a pleasant tingly sensation on my skin. That went away and has never returned - I wish I could find a way to experience that again.

I haven't observed any psychological differences at all. My emotions are the same as always - I'm a fairly laid-back, even tempered person and I rarely feel strong emotions to begin with. I have not felt sad once in the last 4 months, but I've not been particularly happy either - mainly just the usual numbness.

My libido was already low because of my age (58) and low T, I haven't noticed any significant differences.

My nipples do feel more sensitive, but not in a good way - touching them is merely irritating.

Of all of the possible outcomes of HRT that I considered, especially reading all of the experiences that people have written about on this site, the one outcome that I never imagined was the "null" outcome - that there would be little or no effect, that I'd gone through all of this soul-searching and trouble and have it simply not work.

The things that I had hoped for are to have a more feminine figure (body fat restribution) and skin, to experience increased tactile sensitivity (in a good way), and to experience the psychological change in perspective that comes from feminizing hormones. So far I haven't sensed any of those things happening or even starting to happen. Yes I know YMMV, but I was hoping for at least one or two of those things.

I'm going to continue taking hormones for another year or two, but if I don't see further positive results I'll probably stop.

[Ellement_of_Freedom]

I had a similar experience. Hormonal changes are so painfully slow. I agree that you should continue for another 2 years, and then re-assess. 4 months is not very long at all.

[AshleyP]

So far the results have been kind of disappointing - I don't feel *any* different.

I'm an older transitioner at about the seven month mark. I feel about like you do. At about the three month mark, after my follow up lab tests, I remember posting a comment very much like yours.

I did start with a bit of breast tissue development or true gynecomastia from about eight years of taking a moderate dosage of spiro for a heart condition. About four and a half months in, I experienced some breast swelling. It's not breast tissue growth, as it happened over too short of a period, about two weeks. It was at least something to point to and was encouraging. Unfortunately, I guess, the swelling has lessened over the last month and I have this uneasy feeling that one day, they'll deflate and I'll be back to where I started.

You see some people report "euphoria the instant I popped the first pill." I'm exaggerating, of course, but I think you know what I mean. I've come to take it with a grain of salt and an understanding that their emotional state was probably a lot different than mine.

I'm going to continue taking hormones for another year or two, but if I don't see further positive results I'll probably stop.

I'm kinda coming to the same conclusion. I hope things improve for you.

All the best,
--AshleyP

[jentay1367]

I am a year in with basically the same age  and protocol as you. Only the progesterone differs in regards to the fact that I take none.  I would say except for some skin that's a little softer and body hair growth thats sparser and smaller diameter, there is little physical difference to note. Once our HGH is gone, the receptors really have no way to institute physical changes. I'm not saying there are none, just saying they are negligible for the efforts and money I've put forward. It has however killed my dysphoria. That alone makes it worth the price of admission.  But physical changes are subtle and I'm hypercritical so I have to say I'm pretty disappointed as well.
      As compensation, I would suggest you pursue laser or electrolysis and get facial hair removed. It has a very feminizing effect. If you can afford it, FFS will compensate for what hormones can't.  Practice your voice, mannerism and comportment. All will give you the impetus to carry on and they are all things that make a tangible difference. Unfortunately,  and I'll probably get flamed, the free pass physical effects received by the young, more often than not, don't seem readily available to the over 50 crew. We have to pay a little more and try a little harder. It's just a hard reality.

[Rachel_Christina]

I have just gone 11 months on hormones, levels are perfect.
I have never experienced any emotional changes, I don't think so anyway, but I never spent time looking for them, honestly just feel the same, but I feel great as always.
Simply knowing I am developing no longer into a male was all I needed to know.
The physical side can be very slow, take a while to begin, go in waves etc
When we stop looking the changes happen I think.
I have stopped looking everyday for the past few months, and now the odd time that I do, I can be shocked my new developments.
Stop stressing and things will happen.

[KayXo]

Once our HGH is gone, the receptors really have no way to institute physical changes.

Women with Laron syndrome are insensitive to HGH (human growth hormone) due to a mutation and in spite of this, breast development and size are normal. Breast development is one of many physical changes.

Unfortunately,  and I'll probably get flamed, the free pass physical effects received by the young, more often than not, don't seem readily available to the over 50 crew. We have to pay a little more and try a little harder. It's just a hard reality.

I've seen plenty of older women pass quite well while younger girls, because of their genetics, developed quite masculine traits and had trouble passing no matter the effects of the hormones. It depends on the individual. You'd be surprised. Unless you start hormones during puberty...

Sometimes changes can be very slow/absent due to an inadequate HRT regimen for the person. Things to discuss about with your doctor.

[Deborah]

On Human Growth Hormones.  There are two ways to get it to increase a lot no matter how old you are.  The first is intermittent fasting, increase by up to 4000%.  The second is with high intensity intervals or heavy strength training, increase up to 500%. 


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

[jentay1367]

On Human Growth Hormones.  There are two ways to get it to increase a lot no matter how old you are.  The first is intermittent fasting, increase by up to 4000%.   

What kind of fasting, for how long and how long will HGH stay elevated?

[jentay1367]

I have just gone 11 months on hormones, levels are perfect.
I have never experienced any emotional changes, I don't think so anyway, but I never spent time looking for them, honestly just feel the same, but I feel great as always.
Simply knowing I am developing no longer into a male was all I needed to know.
The physical side can be very slow, take a while to begin, go in waves etc
When we stop looking the changes happen I think.
I have stopped looking everyday for the past few months, and now the odd time that I do, I can be shocked my new developments.
Stop stressing and things will happen.

Your results @ 27 years of age are going to be substantially different than that of someone who is 58. Things won't and don't necessarily "just happen".

[AshleyP]

What kind of fasting, for how long and how long will HGH stay elevated?

There's some good information on the dietdoctor.com website. There's an article on the effects of fasting in general and another article detailing the intermittent fasting.

All the best,
--AshleyP

[Rachel_Christina]

Your results @ 27 years of age are going to be substantially different than that of someone who is 58. Things won't and don't necessarily "just happen".

Maybe not, but it is all a matter of genetics, sometimes at no matter what age nothing really happens or the differences​ may be minimal.
I have seen some much older than me have huge results. And my changes have been pretty suttle so far.
And even if things are as you say, what good is that attitude anyway, even for your own morale?
It's best to stop worrying about it, it's like I said as soon as we are on full dose blockers atleast we are no longer going in the wrong direction. For me that ended the stress I had, knowing that I could never go further down the path of manhood..

[jentay1367]

And even if things are as you say, what good is that attitude anyway, even for your own morale?

Because as I've pointed out in my earlier post, you can do things that are proactive that will enhance your opportunities to look and be accepted as a woman. You are not doomed without the aid of HRT. Diet, exercise, good eating habits, electrolysis and if affordable, FFS..... often help many women from getting caught in despair when they come to find that Hormones are not a magic bullet. As you stated, it's best to stop worrying about it. But it's also smart if you're dysphoric not to put all your eggs in that single basket or you may find yourself severely depressed somewhere down the line. There are so many people on the internet that leave the impression that Hormones can be a magic girl pill. Take Sona Avedian for instance. Her results were nothing short of miraculous. This leaves some women to end up very depressed when the magic blue pills fail to deliver. So my whole point is to serve the older TS community by sharing that oftentimes, the results from merely swallowing a pill will not come, and to look at other options that are more or less guaranteed to bring at least some of the results of what you imagine. That mirror can be brutal to the dysphoric and anything can help. Remedies outside of the HRT option are real and available and can bolster ones sense of self worth immeasurably.

[Deborah]

What kind of fasting, for how long and how long will HGH stay elevated?

The objective is to drop insulin down to very low levels as insulin and HGH are antagonistic.  The most common fasting plan people are using is a daily 16 hour fast, from sunset to lunch the next day.  If you fat adapt with a low carb or keto diet this is really easy to do as hunger is no longer an issue.  You could also do longer fasts but my understanding is that you need at least 12 to 16 hours to get the effect. 

I don't know how long it lasts but I expect that when you eat, insulin goes up and HGH goes down.  Most people I've seen are doing this type of fasting daily, or at least several times a week.

During the non-fasting 8 hours you can eat whatever you want but eating healthily will probably give better results.

Here is a video.



Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

[jentay1367]

Thanks Deborah. That's pretty intriguing. I think I may just try that for a couple of weeks and see what happens. I appreciate your posting it.

[Maybebaby56]

I started HRT 4 months ago. For the first 10 weeks I used the patches, I shifted over to weekly injections of estradiol valerate about 6 weeks ago. I'm currently taking what I believe to be the maximum allowable dose. I'm also taking spiro, finasteride, and progesterone.

So far the results have been kind of disappointing - I don't feel *any* different.

Physically the only change I've noticed is a tiny bit of gynomastia, although it's small enough that I could go shirtless right now and no one would notice. There were some negative side effects early on (joint aches, etc) but they have gone away. I do feel light-headed sometimes because of the spiro (it lowers blood pressure), sometimes when I get up off the couch I feel dizzy.

In my first week on the patches, I felt a little bit of a pleasant tingly sensation on my skin. That went away and has never returned - I wish I could find a way to experience that again.

I haven't observed any psychological differences at all. My emotions are the same as always - I'm a fairly laid-back, even tempered person and I rarely feel strong emotions to begin with. I have not felt sad once in the last 4 months, but I've not been particularly happy either - mainly just the usual numbness.

My libido was already low because of my age (58) and low T, I haven't noticed any significant differences.

My nipples do feel more sensitive, but not in a good way - touching them is merely irritating.

Of all of the possible outcomes of HRT that I considered, especially reading all of the experiences that people have written about on this site, the one outcome that I never imagined was the "null" outcome - that there would be little or no effect, that I'd gone through all of this soul-searching and trouble and have it simply not work.

The things that I had hoped for are to have a more feminine figure (body fat restribution) and skin, to experience increased tactile sensitivity (in a good way), and to experience the psychological change in perspective that comes from feminizing hormones. So far I haven't sensed any of those things happening or even starting to happen. Yes I know YMMV, but I was hoping for at least one or two of those things.

I'm going to continue taking hormones for another year or two, but if I don't see further positive results I'll probably stop.

Hi Tasha,

I am sorry you are not getting better results. Similar to you, I started HRT at age 57.  My T level was about 370 ng/dL, which was on the low end of normal. My endocrinologist was very conservative in his approach.  On my first visit, which I had waited anxiously three months for, he prescribed the lowest possible dose of spironolactone.  That was it.  I felt nothing. I was so disappointed.

Six weeks later he doubled the dose of spiro and added finasteride and one patch a week of a twice-a-week estradiol patch.  I'd say within a week I started noticing something different about my psyche.  It was not so much what I was feeling, but more of what I was not feeling.  That desperate ache, that need, that feeling of something wrong - in short, my dysphoria - was gone.  It was an amazing revelation.

Six weeks later, my spiro and estradiol doses were doubled again, and I started feeling tenderness in my nipples and I could feel breast buds developing underneath.  More importantly, any doubt about whether I should transition was erased.  My thinking changed from "There is no way I can possibly transition" to "There is no way i cannot transition".

Even though my spiro and estradiol doses were doubled again three months later, after ten months my serum E2 levels were barely above the male range. I definitely saw some minor changes, though. My skin was less oily, especially my scalp. My skin seemed softer.  My face seemed a little rounder. My body scent changed quite perceptibly. Nonetheless, I started to run out of patience.  I got a new endocrinologist, and a new, more aggressive HRT regimen (sublingual estradiol instead of patches).  My T levels are now < 30 ng/dL and my E levels are in the 190-200 pg/mL range.  My breasts are slowly growing, and I was relieved that they haven't gotten smaller even though I have lost almost 20 pounds in the last two months.  The hair on my chest and abdomen, hands and arms, and underarms is pretty much gone. The one thing I have not observed is any kind of fat redistribution, but I may address that surgically next year.

Anyway, those have been my results.  Not phenomenal, but definitely noticeable.

With kindness,

Terri 

[KayXo]

Growth hormone exerts much of its effects through the actions of IGF-1 but the problem is that when estrogen is taken orally or when high doses of estrogen are taken non-orally, IGF-1 levels are reduced because of estrogen action in the liver (increased estrogen circulation in the liver). This is why GH increases on oral estrogen because levels of IGF-1 decrease and IGF-1 having a negative feedback on GH, lower levels of IGF-1 mean higher GH levels.

So anyone on oral E or injectables, expect your IGF-1 to come down and GH to go up but because much of what we're looking for are mediated through IGF-1, that's not good news. Low-carb and a ketogenic lifestyle will also bring IGF-1 down because of lower insulin levels and this is why GH levels go up.

In spite of this, I found my breast growth to be quite good on high doses of oral estradiol so go figure...there's much more than just IGF-1.

[Tasha.McKenna]

Thanks for all of the replies, very interesting.

I wonder if anyone has any theories on why my skin sensitivity went away...I felt it for the first few days on E, and then never again, not even when we increased dosages several times. (I'm talking about all-over sensitivity, not nipples - those are still very sensitive).

[Daniellekai]

Growth hormone exerts much of its effects through the actions of IGF-1 but the problem is that when estrogen is taken orally or when high doses of estrogen are taken non-orally, IGF-1 levels are reduced because of estrogen action in the liver (increased estrogen circulation in the liver). This is why GH increases on oral estrogen because levels of IGF-1 decrease and IGF-1 having a negative feedback on GH, lower levels of IGF-1 mean higher GH levels.

So anyone on oral E or injectables, expect your IGF-1 to come down and GH to go up but because much of what we're looking for are mediated through IGF-1, that's not good news. Low-carb and a ketogenic lifestyle will also bring IGF-1 down because of lower insulin levels and this is why GH levels go up.

In spite of this, I found my breast growth to be quite good on high doses of oral estradiol so go figure...there's much more than just IGF-1.

Do you have a source for the bit about injectables? I can only find a study that mentions oral and transdermal... I would expect injectable to have similar effect to the transdermal, but the study noted no similar effect in transdermal, for reference: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22108915

[KayXo]

Injectables like polyestradiol phosphate used in men with advanced prostate cancer have little effect on hepatic markers, thus IGF-1 would likely not be reduced much BUT on injectable estradiol valerate, levels of estradiol are likely to be higher (in excess of 700-1,000 pg/ml, in my case, up to 4,000) so that more estradiol circulates in the liver and affects markers to a greater extent as my blood test results show...my IGF-1 levels are VERY low, well under the normal range, perhaps another contributing factor is that I don't eat too many carbs and my insulin levels are on the lower end but still within normal range.

Pregnancy zone protein, SHBG are one of many hepatic markers, some more sensitive to E than others.

Here, a few studies regarding polyestradiol phosphate (PEP)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2440014
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00256121
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3242384

These studies confirm that, even at higher doses of PEP, hepatic markers are minimally impacted. There are many more and apart from one study, all the others found no increase in thromboembolic incidences.

[Janes Groove]

I'm going to continue taking hormones for another year or two, but if I don't see further positive results I'll probably stop.

Here's something to consider:  Over time a feminizing HRT regimen will likely cause permanent damage to one's male parts.  Estrogen just doesn't like them.  It's possible that 2 years down the road your natural ability to produce androgen will be permanently damaged. 

Have you considered taking a vacation from your feminizing HRT regimen in order to try to qualify the effects of returning dysphoria that a return to natural masculinezation may induce?  A vacation from your current feminizing HRT regimen with a consequent return of dysphoria may be a convincing factor for you to continue HRT.