Not Just About My Gender Identity - Aesthetics

[Mangothedog]

I've made a thread recently regarding my FFS goals and what I'm doing to reach them, but this is different...

Before I start, I know it may sound vain, vapid and so on and so forth...

Obviously first and foremost, having a face that matches our gender identity is paramount BUT... does anyone else hold aesthetics in such high esteem that it almost rivals the need for being presentable as a female?

It's not enough for me to be presentable as a female, I need to be  pretty  as well, at the very least pretty in my own eyes...

I know beauty is subjective, and thankfully what I regard as being beautiful is far from the norms of objective beauty, it's just there are certain objective features that make a person pretty...things I don't have...things I need.

My face shape is just so horribly devoid of features, it's a ->-bleeped-<-ing oval for christ's sake, with no objective features...

I'm already getting forehead reconstruction, hairline lowering, buccal fat removal, cheek + zygomatic implants, blepharoplasty, orbital rim implants and a custom wraparound jawline implant... but the thing is, all that counts for nil unless I get what I see as absolute MUST - either a LeFort I or LeFort III, to make my face normal...

Now obviously the logistics of saying you want a LeFort I or III and then actually getting one is a huge undertaking in itself, but the thing is, I don't even know if either will meet my expectations, if it would make me how I want, and that is having the distance between my eyes and lips more proportional...

In my last thread the user Venusxoxo commented on how her friends underwent a LeFort I and had a drastic change but she hasn't responded to me since, also the user 2cherry has undergone a LeFort III with astounding results...

I'm at my wit's end...I woke up this morning, took 1 look at my face in the mirror, chainsmoked and took tramadol until I could make my body fall into a deep sleep...

For me it's beyond vanity...

[Mangothedog]

Let me tell ya. My sister is beautiful and I always envied her. She ran for Miss California back in the 60's, So she was my template. I always wanted to look better than her. Since I am tall and was once very skinny I thought I would make a great supermodel. I used to like Susan Blakely and Christina Ferrari. And then I saw Christie Brinkley. Luckily I am relatively wrinkle free so I feel pretty good when I get pretty. However, at 65 i'll make a good looking corpse.

But I just have to take one look at your profile picture to see that you have the defining features that make a face...well, a face... I'm at the point where if it turns out my face would look more "norma" or objectively attractive as a male, I'd just detransition and repress for the rest of my life

[Sarah.VanDistel]

Hi Mangothedog!

I attentively read this post as well as the other thread you started, concerning you dilemma about a Lefort III. Some people pointed out that this procedure fits in an entirely different league from your common FFS procedures. There is a very high level of complexity and risk of complications added, one of the most ironic being the possibility of getting a new face that is different well beyond what you expected.

Now, you say that it's important for you to pass and that you want to be beautiful - don't we us all? After repeating the so-cliché "beauty lies in the eye of the beholder", I'll tell you that I feel that you give a very strong impression of being, well... obsessed with that aspect of your body?

I'm truly sorry if I am totally wrong and be assured that it is in no way my intention to sound insulting or paternalizing. I'm actually more concerned than anything else. As I was reading your posts, the term "body dysmorphic disorder" kept popping in my mind... I am certainly not saying that you have BDD, but have you considered the possibility of being a transgender person who also has "some" BDD? I do hope you have discussed these issues and your cosmetic concerns with a mental health professional. It would really be sad for you to undergo some high risk hardcore facial interventions and waking up with the persistent feeling of being esthetically inadequate in your eyes, just because your eyes (i.e. the way you see yourself) were the ones that should have been adjusted in the first place.

Again, forgive me if you think that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just candidly worried about you.

Peace & Hugs [emoji111]

Sarah

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

[Mangothedog]

Hi Mangothedog!

I attentively read this post as well as the other thread you started, concerning you dilemma about a Lefort III. Some people pointed out that this procedure fits in an entirely different league from your common FFS procedures. There is a very high level of complexity and risk of complications added, one of the most ironic being the possibility of getting a new face that is different well beyond what you expected.

Now, you say that it's important for you to pass and that you want to be beautiful - don't we us all? After repeating the so-cliché "beauty lies in the eye of the beholder", I'll tell you that I feel that you give a very strong impression of being, well... obsessed with that aspect of your body?

I'm truly sorry if I am totally wrong and be assured that it is in no way my intention to sound insulting or paternalizing. I'm actually more concerned than anything else. As I was reading your posts, the term "body dysmorphic disorder" kept popping in my mind... I am certainly not saying that you have BDD, but have you considered the possibility of being a transgender person who also has "some" BDD? I do hope you have discussed these issues and your cosmetic concerns with a mental health professional. It would really be sad for you to undergo some high risk hardcore facial interventions and waking up with the persistent feeling of being esthetically inadequate in your eyes, just because your eyes (i.e. the way you see yourself) were the ones that should have been adjusted in the first place.

Again, forgive me if you think that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just candidly worried about you.

Peace & Hugs [emoji111]

Sarah

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

Thank you Sarah, I don't doubt for one second that I have BDD - and I realise this, but for me I feel that there is a fine line between BDD and being a realist... I need to talk to a professional, but I feel that if me taking lexapro (an anti-depressant that should make one feel better due to chemically altering the brain) doesn't work, then listening to a therapist talk wont do much either... I already feel like a biological failure, so if a LeFort has even the slightest chance of making a change that I can appreciate then I wouldn't think twice about undergoing the procedure....hmmph

[Sarah.VanDistel]

Some time ago, when I was still exploring my own issues, I stumbled upon an interesting article about cognitive-behavioural therapy for BDD (https://bdd.iocdf.org/professionals/therapists-guide-to-bdd-tx/).

I never fitted the diagnostic criteria for BDD, but I found the issue fascinating in how much the construct we make of our identity, as individuals, depends upon our perception... We assume that reality is equal to what we see, forgetting that the lens through which we see is perhaps uneven and distorting the true image... And what would be a true image? Well... I tend to believe that if a sufficient number of other trustworthy observers told me that something is blue when I see red, I'd eventually convince myself that what they see is true... But that wouldn't change the experience that I feel when I percept that color - reminiscences of warmth, fire, blood...

I think that's why it's so challenging to treat BDD. If many people tell you that you do look beautiful, you may start believe in them (for practical purposes) but your experience will remain the same. CBT claims to be able to modify this... but I don't say it from experience, only from reading it.

Anyways... just rambling a little bit. 😏

Whichever your decision, I do wish you the best possible outcome! But please, *do* think twice and even thrice before taking such a giant leap and be safe!

Yours truly, Sarah

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

[Mangothedog]

Some time ago, when I was still exploring my own issues, I stumbled upon an interesting article about cognitive-behavioural therapy for BDD (https://bdd.iocdf.org/professionals/therapists-guide-to-bdd-tx/).

I never fitted the diagnostic criteria for BDD, but I found the issue fascinating in how much the construct we make of our identity, as individuals, depends upon our perception... We assume that reality is equal to what we see, forgetting that the lens through which we see is perhaps uneven and distorting the true image... And what would be a true image? Well... I tend to believe that if a sufficient number of other trustworthy observers told me that something is blue when I see red, I'd eventually convince myself that what they see is true... But that wouldn't change the experience that I feel when I percept that color - reminiscences of warmth, fire, blood...

I think that's why it's so challenging to treat BDD. If many people tell you that you do look beautiful, you may start believe in them (for practical purposes) but your experience will remain the same. CBT claims to be able to modify this... but I don't say it from experience, only from reading it.

Anyways... just rambling a little bit. 😏

Whichever your decision, I do wish you the best possible outcome! But please, *do* think twice and even thrice before taking such a giant leap and be safe!

Yours truly, Sarah

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

hmmmph, I will look into that, I'm going to go through with surgery and if it at least makes me feel like I look normal then I will be content, at the end of the day I'm not asking to look like Angelina Jolie, just not something from a children's horror book

[DawnOday]

I apologize for my earlier statement. I lack social skill and apparently the ability to read as well. I offer no other explanation for that brain art.  I do hope you get the information you are looking for. There are so many special, wonderful people here.

[Sophia Sage]

Obviously first and foremost, having a face that matches our gender identity is paramount BUT... does anyone else hold aesthetics in such high esteem that it almost rivals the need for being presentable as a female?

You're not alone.

Also, there is some research that suggests that "beauty" isn't as subjective as we think.

Anyways, yeah, the aesthetics of beauty... physical beauty is more than just the right proportions.  I think skin quality is right up there, not to mention teeth and hair.  And voice! 

And then there's the matter of internal beauty.  You know how you meet someone pretty and get to talking and realize that this is actually an ugly person when you get right down to it?  And then there are other people who don't seem very pretty at all, but then you get to know them and realize that they really shine from within, that they make everyone else's lives better just for walking on this planet, and then their face becomes so... beautiful...

It's the former beauty that matters for initial impressions.  It's the latter beauty that matters for all manner of long-term relationships, be it professional, familial, romantic, what have you.

I'm already getting forehead reconstruction, hairline lowering, buccal fat removal, cheek + zygomatic implants, blepharoplasty, orbital rim implants and a custom wraparound jawline implant... but the thing is, all that counts for nil unless I get what I see as absolute MUST - either a LeFort I or LeFort III, to make my face normal...

Now obviously the logistics of saying you want a LeFort I or III and then actually getting one is a huge undertaking in itself, but the thing is, I don't even know if either will meet my expectations, if it would make me how I want, and that is having the distance between my eyes and lips more proportional...

In my last thread the user Venusxoxo commented on how her friends underwent a LeFort I and had a drastic change but she hasn't responded to me since, also the user 2cherry has undergone a LeFort III with astounding results...

The first name that comes to mind for LeFort procedures is Deschamps-Braly. You might also want to look at surgeons like Joel Defrancq.

If you're looking to reduce the length of your midface, I think a LeFort I procedure (which cuts into the upper jaw bone between the teeth and nose) will be easier and more efficacious.  Lefort III targets the area above the nose and between the eyes, which is more about positioning the midface horizontally -- moving it forward or back. Which might also be an aesthetic consideration for your profile, but generally doesn't change the vertical length of the midface.

[Mangothedog]

You're not alone.

Also, there is some research that suggests that "beauty" isn't as subjective as we think.

Anyways, yeah, the aesthetics of beauty... physical beauty is more than just the right proportions.  I think skin quality is right up there, not to mention teeth and hair.  And voice! 

And then there's the matter of internal beauty.  You know how you meet someone pretty and get to talking and realize that this is actually an ugly person when you get right down to it?  And then there are other people who don't seem very pretty at all, but then you get to know them and realize that they really shine from within, that they make everyone else's lives better just for walking on this planet, and then their face becomes so... beautiful...

It's the former beauty that matters for initial impressions.  It's the latter beauty that matters for all manner of long-term relationships, be it professional, familial, romantic, what have you.

The first name that comes to mind for LeFort procedures is Deschamps-Braly. You might also want to look at surgeons like Joel Defrancq.

If you're looking to reduce the length of your midface, I think a LeFort I procedure (which cuts into the upper jaw bone between the teeth and nose) will be easier and more efficacious.  Lefort III targets the area above the nose and between the eyes, which is more about positioning the midface horizontally -- moving it forward or back. Which might also be an aesthetic consideration for your profile, but generally doesn't change the vertical length of the midface.

I unno... I feel that my inner self has slowly eroded over time to match my outer self - horrible.

Now I'm second guessing if it even is my mid face that seems off in terms of length, it might be my inter pupil distance making it look longer in proportion. My pupils are 63mm apart, which is by all means a normal distance but it provides for an unharmonious mid face ratio when taking into account the distance between pupil and top lip.

Orbital Box Osteotomy is a sure fire way of increasing pupil distance, but pffft good luck finding someone to perform one for a cosmetic reason

[GlobalPessimum]

If it's the length of your face that you're unhappy about you can always shorten it by making your face wider with cheek implants. If it's your upper lip that's too long, you can plump it up with implants or lipofilling to make the distance to your nose smaller. A somewhat unorthodox solution would even be to make your chin longer (which doesn't necessarily mean more masculine, or even less attractive).

In general, what makes a face pretty or not, masculine or not, are the proportions between the various features, not the absolute sizes thereof. You can go a long way to modify the proportions of your various features before you need to actually move them closer together.

It's also useful to remeber that the differences in proportion between faces that we tend to find pretty and those we do not are really tiny. For instance, if you measured the upper lip of Kara Delevinge and Theresa May they wouldn't be off by more than a few milimiters. Conceptually, the distance is big, probably because we're used to paying very good attention to such small differences, but in absolute terms, it's not. Which is great if you want to change your face, because it means you can make a small change and see a big difference.

I suspect you know all this stuff already though and are still freaking out, which may indicate that you won't get any relief with surgery alone. Unfortunately, there's no magic pill. Either you find a reason to love yourself, warts and all, or not. Nobody can force you to.

[Devlyn]

The most beautiful people still end up wrinkly old bags. Don't get preoccupied with looks.

Hugs, Devlyn

[Julia1996]

I think almost all trans people have bdd to a extent. I know I do. I have people tell me I'm pretty but I don't see it when I look in the mirror. But I'm getting to the point where I"m thinking maybe I'm not too hideous. I mean that many people wouldn't just be saying that would they?  And I am suspicious of compliments. That's another thing I think is common among transpeople.  I always kind of wonder if it's really a insult in some way. That totally annoys my dad. He told me people my age are not that polite and that they would just say I was ugly if they thought I was. FFS is for correcting male features so someone can pass as female but I think a lot of us think, your going to cut my face so just do EVERYTHING while you're in there. I was kind of persistent with my dad about wanting FFS. He didn't think I needed it but I did. So finally he agreed to a consultation with a Dr who did FFS.  I had a shopping list of stuff I wanted done. My nose,cheeks,lips,chin, boobs. The Dr looked at me from different angles then he went over my list. He told me that FFS was not about beauty it was about feminizing male features so a transwoman can pass as a female. He said I already did so I didn't need FFS. He said he didn't think I fully understood how invasive the stuff I wanted done was.  He said he didn't know of any reputable surgeon who would do those procedures on a 19 year old unless it was a passability issue. The point is I was just totally sure I needed FFS. My dad said I didn't need it and the Dr said I didn't.  Then the people here told me I didn't.  So I believed it. The people here are honest. But if that Dr had agreed to do it and my dad would have allowed me to I would totally have had all those procedures done. So my question is do you really need all of the procedures you want to have done or do you just WANT them?

[Mangothedog]

hi everyone, just wanting to thank you all

I've calmed down a bit, and am thinking more rationally - I still want to go ahead with surgeries (around 9 or so give or take)

I'm seeing a therapist soon, but yeah....hmph

[anjaq]

Julia - I know this somehow - lol - everyone seems to tell me I do not need any FFS, I even had one surgeon tell me that. Unlike in your case however he did say that doing them would improve my looks, so he would do it if I want to. But the only ones agreeing on doing FFS on me are a few people who had FFS themselves and half of them do so because they look at objective markers like "yes, the forehead can be changed a few mm" - I think not in all of these cases the assessment is based ony anything but the technical aspects. I am quite confused by all of this, to be honest. I am afraid of the invasive surgery and at the same time I cannot manage to see my face as abeautiful normal female face but always see something else in it. I wonder if its psychological, but I know that it cannot only be that since some of the surgeons did suggest the same things, so its not like there is nothing to improve, just how much money and surgical damage I am willing to put into this. But then again, when I look at random women in the subway, I see many to which the same would apply, they have some small masculine features that certainly could be removed with FFS, but I doubt they ever thought of this.

[Lexira]

This is an interesting dilemma.

I think that there's a difference between BDD and a person's need to receive positive attention once in a while. Everything in life needs a balance, and if we only ever have negative attention it makes it very hard to feel like there is a reason to do anything. There's no point, so why try? And how possible can it be to develop a beautiful personality when you're cut off from being able to practice anything social because of first-impression bias? There are ways, but it's got be stupid hard and just discouraging.

So the question is whether or not your face is objectively as bad as you feel it is. Something about the way you wrote the initial post makes me think this is probably a little of both, and that the feeling is probably based on reality but exaggerated by years of emotions. Specifically the bit about being willing to de-transition and repress if you could just have a normal face, that just aches my heart a little.

Here's my viewpoint on the morality of cosmetic surgery for trans people: If you need it, get it. If you want it and can afford it, and you are absolutely certain you aren't about to regret it, do it.

The only actual moral issue I can see with any kind of cosmetic surgery is genetic promise. If you aren't able to reproduce for any reason, then you aren't falsely advertising anything at all. You're risking only yourself and your future. If that's a risk you are willing to take, and you can afford it? Fly guilt free.