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The girl with the expensive tears!

Started by Omika, November 30, 2007, 07:37:44 PM

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Marlene

Quote from: Keira on December 19, 2007, 08:52:21 PM
BTW, I know what FFS is since I've done it (not the works, but 5-6 hours under is long enough!)

I think Blair is old enough to make up her own mind after collecting all the info from here and
elsewhere and probing her inner feelings.

I am always amazed how much people debate FFS.  Just look at this thread!  All this public debate over what is a personal want/need/decision.  Most of this debate in my opinion is useless!  Who cares what actress has these features or that!  FFS is basically about reducing male markers on a face so you look more like you should have.  Notice I didn't say "pretty".  That's the problem about obsessive discussions like these.  They tend to build unrealistic expectations.

FFS is an individual decision.  Everybody has their own unique path to walk.  Threads like these tend to make the path harder to see.

Having a dissenting opinion is not unpatriotic.

My 2¢
  •  

Keira

Did I say you had no right to an opinion!
You just argued this topic was useless when its Blair who first asked the question?
Who am I to judge why she did or what she'll do with the answer.
You can read whatever other thread you choose. Discussing a threads worth
is (a meta discussion) more useless (if there is an hierachy or uselessness  ::)
than this subject that's for sure.
  •  

tekla

"All this public debate over what is a personal want/need/decision."

But in our society, 'wants' and 'needs' are funded very differently.  Hence the problem.  And, at what point (now or in the future) will ffs be 'needed' as part of a transition"?  Because then it becomes an insurance/health care coverage debate about who is going to pay, and who is going to benefit.
 
I got to go with Keira on the debating of a merits of any particular thread when there are millions, if not billions of threads that demand that before this one gets it.  Within the context of the site, the question as a post is acceptable.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Suzy

Quote from: tekla on December 20, 2007, 04:07:46 AM
there are millions, if not billions of threads that demand that before this one gets it. 

I agree.  I will absolutely not post in this thread!

Kristi
  •  

Maud

#84
Quote from: Keira on December 19, 2007, 03:59:39 PM

I don't agree that people wilth massive brow ridge and jaw
pass if they just live their lives.
If you listen how people talk in their back, and I am in a position to do so,
(and Tink also), they get no respect, and life is very hard for them.

While many TS think they will never pass and its part of their Body image dysmorphism,
there are a good percentage that truly CANNOT pass no matter how much hormones they
take. Dismissing their existence doesn't make them not exist!!

That's not the case of Blair, though she's more a run of the milll TS who's afraid
to not pass when indeed she most likely will.


I'm not saying that everyone can and will pass i'm just saying that most people could pass well enough if they just acted like a natal woman who simply looked like that by chance would, plenty of natal women look very masculine, if you spent any time in yorkshire it seems to be the preferred look with allot of women.


(unflattering pic to prove the point)

This is lisa one of my girlfriends, she's 6'2 has a bit of a brow ridge, a mohawk and her jaw line ain't exactly dainty nor is her nose. She passes better than I do and hasn't been read in years because she simply does not attract attention as a transsexual only as a butch dyke which she is.

Most ->-bleeped-<-s can't just let go and get on with it, they work themselves silly obsessing over things and it frankly shows, nevermind the number who just have no dress sense and wear what they see that they like on other women not what works on them. I much prefer lisa's style of dress however more feminine clothes tend to suit me better, allot of ->-bleeped-<-s seem to be completely incapable of thinking on this level and again it shows.
  •  

Marlene

Quote from: Mawd on December 20, 2007, 12:22:00 PMMost ->-bleeped-<-s can't just let go and get on with it, they work themselves silly obsessing over things and it frankly shows, nevermind the number who just have no dress sense and wear what they see that they like on other women not what works on them. I much prefer lisa's style of dress however more feminine clothes tend to suit me better, allot of ->-bleeped-<-s seem to be completely incapable of thinking on this level and again it shows.

That's the point I was trying to make, but others seem to not get it.  Obsessing only continues the cycle of living for others.  Obsessing also gets you clocked for being nervous and looking for approval.

Relax and be you.
  •  

Keira


Mawd, its not because she's got a shaved head that she looks masculine, her jawline's round, chin round, not high, eyes large, no brow ridge, etc, etc. She also has a small build.

She would not for one instant be mistaken for a man unless she put a moustache on...

I''ve been involved with TS supports group for A LONG LONG TIME, and believe me,
for some, not amount of happy thought will help them unless they do FFS.

If they find an accepting environment, they may live a somewhat happy life, but
its not the life they wanted to live initially. You've got to talk to them
in therapy settings to find that out. Settling for second best is
a process that's not easy and I have immense compassion for them.


  •  

Veronica Secret

I don't know how people can judge someone's passableness solely by a photo. Pre-everything I put on make-up and a wig, took a photo and used it as an avatar on several mainstream forums. No one questioned that I was anything but female. Usually, when I read someone in 3D, it is something besides the way they look. 
  •  

seldom

Quote from: Mawd on December 20, 2007, 12:22:00 PM
Quote from: Keira on December 19, 2007, 03:59:39 PM

I don't agree that people wilth massive brow ridge and jaw
pass if they just live their lives.
If you listen how people talk in their back, and I am in a position to do so,
(and Tink also), they get no respect, and life is very hard for them.

While many TS think they will never pass and its part of their Body image dysmorphism,
there are a good percentage that truly CANNOT pass no matter how much hormones they
take. Dismissing their existence doesn't make them not exist!!

That's not the case of Blair, though she's more a run of the milll TS who's afraid
to not pass when indeed she most likely will.


I'm not saying that everyone can and will pass i'm just saying that most people could pass well enough if they just acted like a natal woman who simply looked like that by chance would, plenty of natal women look very masculine, if you spent any time in yorkshire it seems to be the preferred look with allot of women.


(unflattering pic to prove the point)

This is lisa one of my girlfriends, she's 6'2 has a bit of a brow ridge, a mohawk and her jaw line ain't exactly dainty nor is her nose. She passes better than I do and hasn't been read in years because she simply does not attract attention as a transsexual only as a butch dyke which she is.

Most ->-bleeped-<-s can't just let go and get on with it, they work themselves silly obsessing over things and it frankly shows, nevermind the number who just have no dress sense and wear what they see that they like on other women not what works on them. I much prefer lisa's style of dress however more feminine clothes tend to suit me better, allot of ->-bleeped-<-s seem to be completely incapable of thinking on this level and again it shows.

God I am not going to begin where this is offensive and stereotyping.  FFS for many of us is not only beneficial with regards to dysphoria, but for passing as well. 

The thing is I have had two consults with surgeons, but have state the same thing to me.  Forehead and a rhinoplasty are pretty much a necessity.  While chin and jaw contouring would help, but not that much and its mostly cosmetic.  Guess what I am not getting...the jaw work.  Its not always about beauty or ideals.

Also don't stereotype with clothing based on people in a learning phase.  It takes awhile to figure out what works for a person.  I don't know why...but sweaters and jeans work pretty well with me.  Though I know people who wear stuff that  I would not touch.  I know what works for me though. 
  •  

Maud

It is such a shocker that a private surgeon who you're paying is going to tell you you *need* surgery.

I'm very sorry if you're unable to present convincingly as a woman, I couldn't possibly comment as to why as I don't know you but what I do know is that I know allot of TS's and even a few natal women who visually look 100% male in the face however due to how they act and present they are taken as female. It really is not that hard.

Hell I've been essentially off T blockers for the last 6 months or so (just got back in) and I still passed fine through that time.
  •  

Keira

Mawd, you're right, you don't know other how other people are.
Why not comment on what you know instead of making broad generalisations.
Some TS women WILL NOT PASS as women no matter how they act,
for some, its OK, they can live with that, but for others iits hell.
When THEY tell me they're always sired and I look at them, and
I see why, well I can't deny reality and neither can they.


A good analogy, I've got some friends which has a french canadian parent,
a black jamaican parent who moved her in the 60's,
she's black but her culture is profoundly french canadian,
she acts, speaks, feel, like all the other french canadian, YET, she's constantly
assumed to be an outsider, she's assumed to speak english. It doesn't matter how she feels or
who she really is, people assume something else about her and she's discriminated like
she came "off the boat". Another girl in a fight with her even said to her that she should go back to her country. Well, her country is this country!!

So, she learns to live with it. like a unpassbale TS would, because she can't change anything
about this. In fact, many TS can change things through FFS, so she's worse off in a way.





  •  

Maud

#91
I'm not proposing a blanket ban on FFS, if you have the money and want it then fair play to you, what I contest is the mentality that so many *need* it to pass which 90% of the time this is not the case.

If memory serves amy t basically admitted a while back that she was primarily transitioning to get a female body, this is not the reason I or most TS's I know transitioned they transitioned to be themselves socially which again if memory serves is something amy t does not care so much about,  if this is her aim then sure a ->-bleeped-<- ton of surgery will get her what she wants however I don't think it's what'll solve most TS's issues.




Edited to remove personal suggestion

  •  

Keira

I'm not going to comment specificially on Amy,
she'll say whatever she wants to say on this.

Commenting on what you said.
AutoG, which a small minority of TS undoubtably are, is when you get off
seeing yourself as female. If there is no sexual component and
mostly a somatic dysphoria, I'm not sure it can be defined as TS since
the gender would only matter to you, and not others. Closer to BID I guess.
For now though, they are treated as other TS since the treatment is basicly the same.
Maybe there's a different genetic mechanism that
affect social and somatic dysphoria in the brain!
Gender and identity could be the result of the expression of hundreds of
interacting genes. We just don't know enough to really say anything about it.
  •  

seldom

#93
Quote from: Mawd on December 24, 2007, 05:35:30 AM
I'm not proposing a blanket ban on FFS, if you have the money and want it then fair play to you, what I contest is the mentality that so many *need* it to pass which 90% of the time this is not the case.

If memory serves amy t basically admitted a while back that she was primarily transitioning to get a female body, this is not the reason I or most TS's I know transitioned they transitioned to be themselves socially which again if memory serves is something amy t does not care so much about, if you ask me that's just a wee bit autogynophilic, if this is her aim then sure a ->-bleeped-<- ton of surgery will get her what she wants however I don't think it's what'll solve most TS's issues.

Mawd I am not even begin to go in the reasons why that is offensive.  I am not autogynophilic, because quite simply it does not exist, and even suggesting as much on top of all the other offensive things you have put forth so far is completely insensitive.

Even using the word autogynophilic on most other trans boards to describe somebody is a very quick way to be permanently banned.  You really do not know how loaded that term is, and I suggest to you once again you do a little research before using it again.  But wait, I will actually do that for you since you don't seem to have that ability in your obviously young little transphobic brain (nothing has suggested to me you are not transphobic).

You also should not be throwing out diagnosis since you are not my therapist.  Autogyphilic may go well over in the backwards trans healthcare land of the UK, but here in the US, it is considered insulting or worse.

Even then you don't even quite understand what the word or diagnosis is, and everything has suggested to me that is the case. 

You sure know how to make things devolve quickly Mawd.  Lets see the use of the word ->-bleeped-<- in an insulting context, insulting some transwomens gender expression, calling somebody autogyphilic, which calls into question their identity by the way.  I could go on.  Wow.  Julia Serano would be very proud of you.    Wonderful young transsexual kid who think she knows all about the world and about me.  Okay, since you won't do the research on your own and you have proven insulting to me once again let me do it for you, I pasted the text so everybody on this board gets it straight why never to call a woman autogyphialic, and why it is extremely insulting.  I suggest reading through this CAREFULLY.  Last I checked I don't have a paraphanalia, or was autogyphilic in the least, then again there is no such thing as autogyphilia TO BEGIN WITH.  I suggest you don't throw out that term again to describe somebody, especially me, and yes, I will be insisting you be banned from this board, because you are the one digging up old graves.   

At least I know the history of trans people.  I can't say the same with you.  There is some clear issues with transphobia and transmisogyny with you kid.  Talk about coming off as ill informed and insulting.

(By the way mods.  If you ban me for this you better well ban Mawd as well and permenantly.  She has been told how insulting I find that term before and I think did it just to tick me off.  Otherwise stay out of it.  I consider what she said extremely insulting, you don't question a persons identity or insult them the way she did.  She knows I find it insulting.  You know of the situation last time.  Now you are informed why nobody should be called "autogyphilic" on a trans board either. It questions their identity, especially those of us who KNOW the history.  I was upset the way you handled it before, but now I am laying out the reasons why.  Mawd should be banned for this and bringing it up again.  She should have known better.  Instead she is coming off now as not only transphobic, but also well, insulting to me personally.  She is the one bringing up a personal insult, but she is also digging up one of the more heated moments of this board.  This time she brought it up again, and she brought it up again in generally with a post that is blatently transphobic in its text.)

Also there is nothing autogyphialic with a women wanting to be comfortable with her body and her face.  Last I checked transsexuality is a discomfort not with societal roles, but also physical body.  This is not just about societal roles, its about congruity within society, but also with ones body.   Thats not autogyphilic, thats reality for for many women with a past.    If you don't understand its fine, but the truth is this isn't just a societal dysphoria like it is for you, many of us who would normally fall under the primary category....its an intense physical dysphoria as well. With me there is no sexual component, which is kind of required for autogyphilia which is described as a paraphanilia, its a societal and physical dysphoria.  To me its quite clear you don't have the physical dysphoria that is as intense as somebody like me or tink, which despite our differences fall well within the primary category, with stopping hormones for six months and everything else you have suggested, you probably don't fall into that category, in fact I have a hard time figuring out what you are other then ill informed.  Instead you seem very quick to label somebody where the physical dysphoria is a little more intense then yours as autogyphilic, even after being explained how insulting that word was to me and many in the community.  Last I checked I am not autogyphilic, I am just a woman who wants to correct some things.  If you can't get that and get others who are like that, don't insult them for it or call them autogyphilic.  But for some of us having some sort of physical peace is just as important as assimilating with society, thats not autogyphilic, thats just being female, and getting the body and face to match who we are.

This is not some paraphanlia to me.  I am not transitioning to be turned on by my own body.  I am transitioning to be comfortable with it to some degree as well as integrate into society.  This is not just about how society treats you, its also about being comfortable in your own skin.  While you may be there, it takes more for some of us to get there.  Thats not being autogyphilic, its just the reality of what transsexuality is.   

Why autogyphilia is problematic:
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/ ->-bleeped-<-.html
" ->-bleeped-<-": a disputed diagnosis


" ->-bleeped-<-" is a sex-fueled mental illness made up by Ray Blanchard. Blanchard defines it as "a man's paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman." [1]

Support for this disease model of gender variance is almost nonexistent, limited to a tiny online " ->-bleeped-<-" support group with fewer than 40 contributors out of a worldwide population of transwomen numbering in the millions. This support group was taken down in early 2005. The disease was also prominently featured in The Man Who Would Be Queen by J. Michael Bailey and has been heavily promoted by Anne Lawrence, a former anesthesiologist who has taken up "autogynephile" as a personal identity.

One of the key concepts in this model is the premise that everyone who is gender variant can be categorized based on one of two "male" sexual interests: homosexuality or paraphilia.

Among the few people who identify with this term, a significant number do not think this is what " ->-bleeped-<-" means. These people often interpret the word's Greek etymology quite literally and think it means an innocent and happy "love of oneself as a woman," or in apposition to a phobia. This is clearly not how the word is being used in the context of psychology or sexology, so we can dismiss comments from these people as irrelevant to the scientific debate.

Many mental health professionals and theorists question if this is a legitimate or scientifically useful descriptor. See parallels with other discredited illnesses below.

" ->-bleeped-<-" describes a paraphilia

Blanchard continues to describe this illness as "a distinct paraphilia" worthy of differential diagnosis, and an improvement in terminology over what his mentor Kurt Freund labeled "cross-gender fetishism." [2]

When Blanchard says this is a paraphilia, what does he mean?

"Paraphilia" is the clinical term used by psychologists for problematic sexual desire or behaviors involving:

    nonhuman objects

    the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner

    children or other nonconsenting persons. [3]

Note that "paraphilias" can be diagnosed even if the person has no subjective distress or impaired function. According to Ray Blanchard, " ->-bleeped-<-" is "a distinct paraphilia," but people with this disease are in the same clinical class as people who are attracted to animals, children, feces, etc.

In other words, proponents of this diagnosis are claiming that people express gender variance not only because they are aroused by possessing a certain body part, but also because they are sexually aroused by humiliating themselves or their loved ones, and that they get a sexual kick out of appearing in public as female, because they respond sexually to the responses of nonconsenting persons like strangers, coworkers and friends, in the same way an exhibitionist gets off by flashing people.

In fact, one of Blanchard and Bailey's theories is that paraphilias cluster, so if someone gender-variant is not attracted exclusively to men, they believe that person is far more likely to be sexually aroused by children, animals, etc.

Blanchard bases this on work he did not with transsexuals who had transitioned, but with anyone who came to his mental institution by force or choice to discuss a gender issue.

Blanchard's studies have never been repeated, and his ideas have been widely ignored until Anne Lawrence latched onto " ->-bleeped-<-" as a political identity. Since that time, Lawrence has been very busy trying to codify this spurious diagnosis as a legitimate descriptor.

" ->-bleeped-<-" describes a psychosexual pathology

In the same way that some gay people feel they are mentally ill, some people interested in transition consider themselves to be mentally ill. Unfortunately, in both cases, they do not think only they are mentally ill, but that all of us are.

The small number of people who agree with the established scientific denotation and strongly identify as having this mental illness frequently conflate the phenomenon with the diagnosis. They seem to think that people concerned about the term " ->-bleeped-<-" are claiming that the observed phenomena do not exist.

Clearly, some people have sexual fantasies about gender variance. When viewed as a psychosexual pathology, as Ray Blanchard views it, these fantasies may be thought of as a "paraphilia."

Parallels with other discredited illnesses

For gender-variant women, "paraphilia" may be the diagnostic equivalent of historic attempts to pathologize non-transsexual women's sexual behavior that fell outside of heteronormative expectations. In the way that these made-up diseases were seen to emanate from the sex organs, Blanchard and colleagues spend a great deal of time looking for clues about male sexual behavior in their genitalia.

It is interesting to note that in Blanchard's world, the heteronormative transwomen need to be separated from those whose erotic interests do not fit the "natural" model of sexual selection.

"Nymphomania"

    As with " ->-bleeped-<-" and similar bogus sexual pathologies and diagnoses, "nymphomania" was created by a clinician. Carol Groneman, author of Nymphomania: A History (2000) reports that the concept of "nymphomania" was first laid out by the French physician Bienville in his 1771 treatise, Nymphomania , or a Dissertation Concerning the Furor Uterinus. Groneman's book is an excellent overview of how medical ideas about sexuality can affect the general population and professionals in other fields

    Psychologists like Freud added more crackpot theorizing that remained widely held beliefs until Kinsey's report on female sexuality in 1953 showed that "nymphomania" and "hypersexuality" had no scientific basis.

    Evolving views of nymphomania were reflected in the successive editions of the American Psychiatric Association's official guide to madness, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Nymphomania was listed as a "sexual deviation" in the first DSM, published in 1951; by DSM-III (1980) it had become a "psychosexual disorder," albeit a vaguely defined one. Sensing the winds of change, or maybe just having watched a few talk shows, the editors of DSM-III-R (revised third edition, 1987) dropped nymphomania and its equally quaint male counterpart, Don Juanism, and replaced them with "distress about a pattern of repeated sexual conquests or other forms of nonparaphilic [nondeviant] sexual addiction." In DSM-IV (1994) even sexual addiction was abandoned, perhaps because the non-gender-specific nature of the term laid bare the speciousness of the whole project

"Hysteria"

    Like "nymphomania," the word "hysteria" is an imprecise term which is used both clinically and in everyday language. It is applied in various situations with different meanings. Similar to vague diagnoses like " ->-bleeped-<-," hysteria may describe a lack of self control over acts and emotions. It may describe morbid self-consciousness, anxiety or extravagant behavior. It also suggests the simulation of various disorders. This nebulous description allows nearly any behavior to be describes as "hysterical," as J. Michael Bailey has described transsexual women criticizing his book and his connections to neo-eugenicists.

    Acute hysteria - subsumed in DSM IV as conversion (primarily physical) and dissociative (primarily mental) disorders - is the relatively abrupt appearance of an artifactual set of signs and symptoms that call attention to themselves.

    Chronic hysteria - the form subsumed in DSM IV as somatization disorder or Briquet's syndrome - are characterized by habitual complaints of symptoms such as pains, faintness, abdominal cramping, nausea, coughing, shortness of breath that turn out to be groundless and artifactual.

    This is a typical comment from someone who believes in the validity of an out of fashion diagnosis: "Hysteria is not disappearing but has taken on less conspicuous guises as people learn what can pass as disease today." One can expect that proponents of " ->-bleeped-<-" will see similar drift and attempt to shoehorn an ever-widening array of phenomena into an already nebulous diagnosis (using terms like "partial  ->-bleeped-<-" etc.).

    Hysteria has its roots in sexism, being derived etymologically from the Greek word for uterus. The uterus was also seen as the cause of "nymphomania" as well.

"Hystero-epilepsy"

    A disease made up by famed neurologist Jean Marie Charcot. A skeptical student, Joseph Babinski, decided that Charcot had invented rather than discovered hystero-epilepsy. The patients had come to the hospital with vague complaints of distress and demoralization. Charcot had persuaded them that they were victims of hystero-epilepsy and should join the others under his care. Charcot's interest in their problems, the encouragement of attendants, and the example of others on the same ward prompted patients to accept Charcot's view of them and eventually to display the expected symptoms. These symptoms resembled epilepsy, Babinski believed, because of a municipal decision to house epileptic and hysterical patients together (both having "episodic" conditions). The hysterical patients, already vulnerable to suggestion and persuasion, were continually subjected to life on the ward and to Charcot's neuropsychiatric examinations. They began to imitate the epileptic attacks they repeatedly witnessed (Paul McHugh) .

"Ego-dystonic homosexuality"

    The DSM-III committee and subcommittee charged with drafting the new manual (1976-78) settled on the diagnosis of ego-dystonic homosexuality , which, according to Dr. Jon Meyer, "...represented a compromise between those individuals whose clinical experience, interpretation of the data, and, perhaps, biases, led them to the conviction that homosexuality was a normal variant of sexual expression..." By the time DSM-III-R (revised version of DSM-III) came out in 1987, the tide had shifted again. The category of ego-dystonic homosexuality was eliminated. As DSM-III-R itself stated, "...the diagnosis...has rarely been used clinically, and there have been only a few articles in the scientific literature that use the concept..."

    However, one could use the category of sexual disorder not otherwise specified to include cases that previously would have been called ego-dystonic homosexuality . Our present DSM-IV does not include homosexuality per se as a disorder, but still permits the diagnosis of "Sexual Disorder Not Otherwise Specified" for someone with "...persistent and marked distress about sexual orientation".

    Note that like "ego-dystonic homosexuality," the diagnosis of " ->-bleeped-<-" is rarely used clinically, and there have only been a few articles in the scientific literature that use the concept.

"Partial  ->-bleeped-<-"

    One of the most laughable examples of the unscientific nature of this diagnosis is Blanchard's claims that cases of "partial  ->-bleeped-<-" exist in order to explain phenomena that need to be shoehorned into the theory. This is about as valid as diagnosing someone with "partial cancer" or "partial paraphilia." The fact that this term was even introduced into the published literature suggests the general lack of rigor in journals devoted to sexual science.

Differential Diagnosis

" ->-bleeped-<-" proponents wish to see a differential diagnosis, meaning they want to separate gender-variant people into two distinct "illnesses." Although the axis of sexual preference is the most persistent, it is not the only one proposed.

Their logic follows a disease model of gender variance. Bailey calls this "lumping and splitting." As they explain, some disorders have similar symptoms. The clinician, therefore, in his diagnostic attempt, has to differentiate against disorders which need to be ruled out to establish a precise diagnosis.

Below are some other diagnoses sometimes suggested for gender-variant people:

    Factitious Disorder /Munchausen syndrome by proxy
    Somatoform disorder
    Hypochondriasis
    Conversion disorder
    Somatization disorder Briquet's Syndrome
    Pain associated with psychological factors
    True medical or psychiatric illness related to presenting complaints

Differential diagnosis is appealing to some gender-variant people and practitioners who wish to separate people who transition into different groups.

It is my hunch that " ->-bleeped-<-" and differential diagnoses are especially appealing to those with a deep-seated homophobia. It seems rooted in the same motivations that some cross-dressing social groups use to exclude gay members. I will be discussing this theory in upcoming revisions.

" ->-bleeped-<-" is quackery

The pathologization of socially unacceptable erotic interests has a long history. As noted about, recent clinical diagnoses such as "ego-dystonic homosexuality" and "nymphomania" have fallen into disrepute. Many expect " ->-bleeped-<-" will be similarly discredited as a diagnosis in time.

In fact, the diagnosis is an example of quackery, which is defined as "overpromotion in the field of health."

Below is an example of how " ->-bleeped-<-" proponents like Ray Blanchard cannot separate the observed phenomena from the diagnosis:

    "In the meantime, it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about " ->-bleeped-<-", on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of " ->-bleeped-<-", on the other. The latter is also an empirical question, but it appears, at this point, to be settled." [2]

This conflation creates a false dilemma. Let's replace " ->-bleeped-<-" with another spurious diagnosis as an example:

    "In the meantime, it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about nymphomania, on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of nymphomania, on the other. The latter is also an empirical question, but it appears, at this point, to be settled."

Quacks like Blanchard used to say exactly this before "nymphomania" was discredited as a diagnosis or a scientifically useful descriptor. "Nymphomania" is not a legitimate diagnosis or classification simply because there are observable phenomena that fit the denotation or clinical criteria. Saying that "nymphomania" does not exist is not the same as saying women who are extraordinarily sexually active do not exist. Of course they exist. That doesn't mean that "nymphomania" exists, though. This is the primary problem with Blanchard's thinking.

Let's replace " ->-bleeped-<-" with another pseudoscientific concept that could be written by a similar type of quack:

    "In the meantime, it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about clairvoyance, on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of clairvoyance, on the other. The latter is also an empirical question, but it appears, at this point, to be settled."

Just because someone observes something that fits the criteria for clairvoyance does not settle the empirical question of whether it exists or not. That's not how science works. That's called confirmation bias, or less formally, "begging the question." Blanchard comes to a questionable conclusion (" ->-bleeped-<-" exists) based on an assumed premise (" ->-bleeped-<-" is a scientifically useful term).

What's wrong with Ray Blanchard's logic?

Blanchard reminds me of this retarded kid I knew when I was younger. In fact, let's call the retarded kid Ray. Ray worked at McDonald's, and when I'd see him there, Ray would look at me with amazement and say, "Wow! I see you every time you come here!"

Classic case of bad induction.

In other words, Ray assumed that he observed an amazing pattern based on unscientific assumptions. It did not occur to Ray that there were factors he had not considered, such as my visits when he was not working.

If Ray fancied himself a scientist (which he clearly isn't), he might take this confirmation bias one step further and give the phenomenon a name, like, say, McSynchronicity: the tendency for Ray to see Andrea every time she comes to McDonald's. He would start forming all sorts of theories about why this exists and make it a bit of an obsession. After all, he "discovered" McSynchronicity, so he wants to defend the idea and get credit far and wide for his amazing observation. Heck, he might even convince a couple of others on his shift who share his level of scientific understanding: Mike over on the griddle and Anne over on the deep fryer.

This is textbook quackery and pseudoscience, but it's hard to bring people like Ray back to their senses once they have "discovered" something and feel a need to protect it.

I would speak slowly to Ray and try to explain that McSynchronicity doesn't really exist as a phenomenon. Ray would indignantly retort:

    "In the meantime, it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about McSynchronicity, on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of McSynchronicity, on the other. The latter is also an empirical question, but it appears, at this point, to be settled."

I would say, "Ray, nothing has been settled. The phenomena you observed empirically do not validate the existence of the classification." But then I'd remember that Ray is retarded, so I'd have to think a little to come up with a really simple explanation. That's where I am right now.

So in the meantime, I stroll into McDonald's and Ray exclaims, "See, another case of McSynchronicity!" I just smile and sigh, and continue thinking about ways to explain this so even Ray and his coworkers can grasp it.

" ->-bleeped-<-" is based on interlocking pseudoscientific claims and methodologies

    Real discoveries of phenomena contrary to all previous scientific experience are very rare, while fraud, fakery, foolishness, and error resulting from overenthusiasm and delusion are all too common. (Cromer 1993)

The McSynchronicity example above is a simplistic description of several established phenomena common to pseudoscientists and quacks. Empiricists tend to emphasize the tentative and probabilistic nature of knowledge, while rationalists tend to be dogmatic and assert they have found a method to discover absolutely certain knowledge.

Some pseudoscientific theories can't be tested because they are so vague and malleable that anything relevant can be shoehorned to fit the theory, e.g., the the theory of multiple personality disorder,"partial  ->-bleeped-<-," or the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator ®.

As a proud member of QuackWatch, I have helped debunk a number of pseudoscientific claims that affect the transgendered community. In the case of Blanchard, the primary quackery involves:

As Dr. Madeline Wyndzen points out in a psychology trade newsletter [4] , Blanchard's key empirical findings:

    1. have never been replicated

    2. failed to include control groups of typically-gendered women

    3. failed to covary the acknowledged age-difference from ANOVA

    4. drew conclusions about causality from entirely observational data

Plethysmography

    A plethysmograph is a primitive "lie detector" attached to the genitals. It is also one of Ray Blanchard's "scientific" tools, since it was invented by his mentor Kurt Freund.

    I have found over my years of exposing medical fraud and quackery that inventors are frequently the most tenacious quacks. Not only do they want to herald their invention, they are also most likely to make scientific errors when fitting the device or concept to use. Because they see their reputation as tied closely with the reception of their device or their writings, and because many inventors have a certain eccentricity and sense of individualism, they will rarely back down from a position, even when they have proven to be frauds. Fortunately, we don't have to convince the quack he is wrong (which is frequently impossible); we only have to convince everyone else the quack is wrong.

    For more on this, please see Plethysmograph: a disputed device.

Testimonials and anecdotal evidence

    This is classic advertising trick: watch any informercial, and you will see all sorts of glowing testimonials and anecdotes supporting the promotional claims being made. Testimonials are always unscientific and are of little value in establishing the legitimacy of the claims they are put forth to support.

    Bailey's book and Lawrence's essays are primarily supported by anecdotal evidence (or "narratives" as Anne Lawrence calls them). Quacks typically use testimonials which only back their side of the story. Lawrence and Bailey only present anecdotal evidence that supports their point. See the discussion of bias below. This pseudoscientific evidence is further aided by communal reinforcement: the process by which a claim becomes a strong belief through repeated assertion by members of a community.

Bias

One of the most insidious problems with the science proposed by proponents of " ->-bleeped-<-" is the profound bias inherent in their unproven assumptions.

These types of bias are also sometimes called hidden persuaders:

    "Technically these hidden persuaders can be described as 'statistical artifacts and inferential biases' (Dean and Kelly 2003: 180)." Dean and Kelly argue that hidden persuaders explain why many astrologers continue to believe in the validity of astrology despite overwhelming evidence that astrology is bunk.

    Psychologist Terence Hines, who has explored many varieties of hidden persuaders (Hines 2003), blames them for the continued use by psychologists of such instruments as the Rorschach test, despite overwhelming evidence that the test is invalid and useless:

        "Psychologists continue to believe in the Rorschach for the same reasons that Tarot card readers believe in Tarot cards, that palm readers believe in palm reading, and that astrologers believe in astrology: the well-known cognitive illusions that foster false belief. These include reliance on anecdotal evidence, selective memory for seeming successes, and reinforcement from colleagues."

This bias takes many forms, and the major problems are outlined below:

    Experimenter effect

        Research has demonstrated that the expectations and biases of an experimenter can be communicated to experimental subjects in subtle, unintentional ways, and that these cues can significantly affect the outcome of the experiment ( Rosenthal 1998 ). i.e., people who wanted free treatment presented to Ray and told him what he wanted. People who think Anne Lawrence is a dangerously disturbed psychotic did not fill out a questionnaire.

    Ad hoc hypothesis

        Bailey, Blanchard and Lawrence explain away facts that refute the hypothesis: i.e., those who disagree are lying, and those whose stories match the model are open and honest.

    Cognitive dissonance

        This theory of human motivation that asserts that it is psychologically uncomfortable to hold contradictory cognitions. Particularly confusing for Bailey and Lawrence are people who are clearly quite open about their erotic interests (like Deirdre McCloskey) but do not consider " ->-bleeped-<-" to be a valid diagnosis. This is clearly incomprehensible to them; Bailey notes that Deirdre shows "all the hallmarks of  ->-bleeped-<-" and Anne Lawrence asks (apparently rhetorically) can someone explain how this isn't  ->-bleeped-<-?

        This is equivalent to someone who believe "nymphomania" is a valid diagnosis. Because they cannot comprehend the possibility that the condition does not exist, their inability colors every observation they make.

    Confirmation bias

        This refers to a type of selective thinking, where favorable evidence is selected for remembrance and focus, while unfavorable evidence for a belief is ignored.

        A pseudoscientist tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs (supportive data), and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs. Bailey, Blanchard and Lawrence do this by claiming those who disagree are lying, or by presenting only evidence that supports their arguments.

        This type of biased thinking can be quite subtle. Some pseudoscientists seriously consider data contrary to their beliefs, but are much more critical of such data than they are of supportive data.

    Pathological science

        Nobel Prize winner Irving Langmuir described pathological science as "the science of things that aren't so", using as examples the Davis-Barnes Effect, N-rays, mitogenetic rays, the Allison Effect, extrasensory perception, and flying saucers (Langmuir 1968).

        Langmuir offered six characteristics of pathological science :

            The magnitude of the effect is substantially independent of the intensity of the causative agent.

            The effect is of a magnitude that remains close to the limits of detectability; or, many measurements are necessary because of the very low statistical significance of the results.

            It makes claims of great accuracy.

            It puts forth fantastic theories contrary to experience.

            Criticisms are met by ad hoc excuses.

            The ratio of supporters to critics rises up to somewhere near 50 percent and then falls gradually to oblivion.

    The problem of induction

        This gets into heady philosophy of science type stuff that's lost and Bailey and friends. For a brief formulation of the problem of induction we can turn to Born, who writes: '. . . no observation or experiment, however extended, can give more than a finite number of repetitions'; therefore, 'the statement of a law - B depends on A - always transcends experience. Yet this kind of statement is made everywhere and all the time, and sometimes from scanty material. ' 1

        In other words, the logical problem of induction arises from (1) Hume's discovery (so well expressed by Born) that it is impossible to justify a law by observation or experiment, since it 'transcends experience'; (2) the fact that science proposes and uses laws 'everywhere and all the time'. (Like Hume, Born is struck by the 'scanty material', i.e. the few observed instances upon which the law may be based.) To this we have to add (3) the principle of empiricism which asserts that in science only observation and experiment may decide upon the acceptance or rejection of scientific statements, including laws and theories.

        These three principles, (1), (2), and (3), appear at first sight to clash; and this apparent clash constitutes the logical problem of induction.

        See my earlier discussion of McSynchronicity for this problem described in lay terms.

    Apophenia

        Dr. Martina Belz-Merk notes "There is currently a controversial debate concerning whether unusual experiences are symptoms of a mental disorder, if mental disorders are a consequence of such experiences, or if people with mental disorders are especially susceptible to or even looking for these experiences."

    Forer effect (also called subjective validation)

        Forer found that people tend to accept vague and general personality descriptions as uniquely applicable to themselves without realizing that the same description could be applied to just about anyone. The "symptoms" and "hallmarks" of " ->-bleeped-<-" continue to spread to explain away inconsistencies.

    Argument to ignorance

        This is a logical fallacy of irrelevance occurring when someone claims that something is true only because it hasn't been proven false. Bailey is especially fond of this one.

For more information

Below are some additional resources on this topic. Please see my essay A defining moment in our history for more on disease models of gender identity in historical context.

Draft version of 20 May 2004.

References:

1. In J. M. Bailey (Chair), Phenomenology and classification of male-to-female transsexualism. Symposium conducted at the meeting of the International Academy of Sex Research , Paris. June, 2000. Slide 38.

2. Blanchard R. Origins of the concept of  ->-bleeped-<-. Published online February 2004 via http://www. ->-bleeped-<-.org/origins.htm

3. "Paraphilia." Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, version IV-TR.

4. Wyndzen MH. A personal and scientific look at a mental illness model of ->-bleeped-<-. APA Division 44 Newsletter, Spring 2004, p. 3.

Recommended reading:

• LINK: " ->-bleeped-<-": New Medical Thinking or Old Stereotype? by Dr. Katherine Wilson

• LINK: Bailey, Blanchard, Lawrence and the fallacy of " ->-bleeped-<-" by Jed Bland

• LINK: Everything You Never Wanted to Know About " ->-bleeped-<-" but Were Afraid You had to Ask by Dr. Madeline Wyndzen

• LINK: " ->-bleeped-<-" & Ray Blanchard's Mis-Directed Sex-Drive Model of Transsexuality by Dr. Madeline Wyndzen

• LINK: A personal and scientific look at a mental illness model of ->-bleeped-<- by Madeline H. Wyndzen, Ph.D. (PDF: requires reader)

• LINK: " ->-bleeped-<-" and disability

• LINK: " ->-bleeped-<-" links compiled by Dr. Madeline Wyndzen

Further reading:

• LINK :" ->-bleeped-<-": Views of one non-transitioner•

• LINK: BC on Gender: " ->-bleeped-<-" by BC Holmes

• LINK: Men Trapped In Men's Bodies: an Introduction to the Concept of " ->-bleeped-<-" by Dr. Anne Lawrence (taken offline in 2004)

• LINK: Sexuality and Transsexuality: A New Introduction to " ->-bleeped-<-" by Dr. Anne Lawrence

• LINK: The " ->-bleeped-<-" Resource ( ->-bleeped-<-.org) by Lisanne Anderson

• LINK: Janice Raymond and " ->-bleeped-<-" by Dr. Rebecca Allison
  •  

Keira

Most people don't understand how to construct logical arguments and
certainly don't understand that theories are only worth their salt if they can
predict the world, not just describe it. The theory if valid extend to in between
data points, if it fails there, the theory is flawed. Bailey and company don't
even come close to being able to predict anything; they cram anything
into their mold no matter if it fits or not.

They are better at creating myths than creating science.




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NicholeW.

O please, don't paint Charcot with such a nasty brush. Unlike Freud he didn't flinch from childhood sexual abuse of girls. He did STAY with his patients and didn't start some BS penis-envy crap about a Greek myth to maintain his standing in the Academy. Charcot stuck to sexual abuse=hysteria. Can't condemn people for not living in the 21st century when they are born in the mid-1800s.

Yep, I actually read all that.

A good essay, Amy. Just a bit long. But I really doubt it will change a mind that doesn't feel open to being changed. There is only so much one can do in that regard. And if the mind isn't open ....

Please everyone. You are entitled to opinions. If they are personal though, please leave them out. Disagreement is natural. But attack the argument, not the person making it. 'K? Thanks.

Nichole
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Rachael

Amy:write a book, and point us at the blurb...
R :police:
  •  

cindybc

To be sure I have heard about enough different kinds of phobias and trans this or that in my life I could write several books about them but I really don't need to add another one to the list right now.

Cindy
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Rachael

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