Brain structure

[Jessica]

Hi girls 💁  I've heard of study's that have identified differences in brain structure.  I have heard that transgender women on hrt eventually could adopt female brain structure.  I would think that would take a while too.  On an older post on a different thread a comment mentioned that studies showed that different parts of the brain were stimulated during male and female orgasm.  This was pointed at a comment about orgasm changes after starting hrt.  I know that my orgasms changed drastically (whole body, multiple) within the first week.
Does anyone know anything more about this?
Hugs, Jessica 💁

[Dee Marshall]

Actually the studies I've seen pointed to small differences between male and female brains with trans people's brain structures being more like those of their gender than of the sex they were assigned at birth, even before HRT.

:

April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!

Think outside the voice box!

[Michelle_P]

The structural differences, particularly around the hypothalamus, appear to be present before HRT. Back in 1996 a Dutch researcher reported on differences on the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis, which is part of the motor control system. The team autopsied brains of straight and gay males, ciswomen and transwomen who had not received HRT.

They found that the region was similar in gay and straight males and different in ciswomen. Transwomen had a region like ciswomen.

There have been a number of studies since then, including fMRI studies showing differences in activity and the connectome related to gender identity.


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[josie76]

Multiple studies using modern MRI technology has shown many regional gender specific differences. The differences are present at birth as most of the structures are known to be in their dymorphic stage in the end of the first through the second trimester. Due to brain structures being set at different times, it's possible for some not to receive enough androgen hormone to become masculinized while others may. This logically explains the whole trans spectrum. After all these neural structures effect how an individual processes thought and on a primal level provides instinctual drive and behaviors.

I'd say from my experience that hormones play a role in the workings of these different structures. My own observation was that testosterone made it easier to bury my emotions. I could recognize them when they surfaced and was well practiced at turning my mind away from them so as to avoid experiencing them. Now I could not do that no matter how hard I might try. My emotions are fully integrated into my thought process.
Also getting rid of T and replacing it with E just plain feels right in so many uncommunicalble ways.

[warlockmaker]

In layman terms, our brains have receptors the feed on T and receptors that feed on E. It is believed that TG have a larger percentage of E receptors and less of T receptors. More akin to a cis female. But in TGs mtf, the T receptors, the minority, are fed with abundamt T. The E recrptors are starved as it has minimal amounts of E. This causes a problem as its the minority controlling the majority. Thats why most tgs feel euphoric when first on HRT as the E receptors are finally fully fed. Also, some therapist urge people to start HRT, believing that if yoir mind is not TG you will not feel euphoric and most likely feel mentally uncomfortable.

Thats how I had it explained. And yes it was euphoric for me.

[SadieBlake]

Yep the brain's structure is set in utero, and influenced/determined by hormonal balance. The influence of receptors is news to me but makes sense -- and certainly squares with my experiences.

The research in this goes back at least into the '70s and the results were barely disseminated until the late '80s because the idea that there were fundamental differences between men and women was a socially unpopular idea. Fortunately different doesn't imply better or worse and yet  we're still a long way from internalizing this culturally.

[Cindy]

This is a link to my comments (rather naive in retrospect) to the WPATH conference in Bangkok where the Dutch group presented a lot on this subject. There are references later in the thread and you can search on their names in Google scholar.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,160213.msg1370043.html#msg1370043

[Jessica]

Thanks girls for the responses, one factor with me, especially in utero, is that I was exposed to DES which is a form of estrogen my mother took to help with miscarriage.  It's thought that my brain was miswired before I was born.
Hugs, Jessica 🤷‍♀️

[Dee Marshall]

You're not alone here in that. Many of us were exposed to DES. Many more of us believe we might have been.

:

April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!

Think outside the voice box!

[Paige]

Hi Jessica,

I'm always torn by this research.  I wonder if this is true for me and what if isn't.  In wanting this type of validation, am I trying to prove to myself and others I'm trans?  Didn't the gay community obsess over this sort of brain difference science years ago?  Now that they're much more accepted by society, I don't think they worry as much about it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very curious about this sort of research but it does bring up a lot of other thoughts.

Take care,
Paige

[HughE]

I've written an article on quora.com about the crucial role that hormones play in determining whether you develop as male or female, and how disrupted hormone production during the later stages of your prenatal development can cause you to develop a brain that's the wrong sex for your body. Here's the link:

https://www.quora.com/What-causes-a-person-to-be-transgender/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

Contrary to popular belief, the thing that actually determines whether you develop as male or female is what hormones were present during the time your prenatal development was taking place, not whether you're XX or XY. All the X and Y chromosomes actually do is determine whether you develop ovaries or testicles, everything from that point onwards appears to be driven by hormones, not genes. To prove the point, there's some examples I've given in that article of people who are genetically male but have developed as female (in one case because their testicles failed to develop, in the other because they have a mutation that prevents them from responding to androgenic hormones).

Unfortunately, the idea that genes determine sex is so deeply engrained in public consciousness that even most doctors assume it to be so, and as a result, they've exposed millions of unborn babies over the years to high doses of gender bending hormones. The best known of these is the artificial estrogen DES, however I've discovered research and case studies showing that a second type of manmade hormone, a class of hormones called progestins, can also disrupt the process of sexual development. Progestins have also seen a great deal of use during pregnancy (more so even than DES), and unlike DES, were never withdrawn, so they're still in use even now.

With DES, the one study that's ever been done looking at DES and gender found a very strong association with MTF ->-bleeped-<-. No one's done any comparable studies on the effects of progestins, however there's good theoretical reason for thinking that these may also be a cause of ->-bleeped-<- (FTM as well as MTF).

[KayXo]

Yet, despite all the above, no causation can be established for certain. Speculation, at best. We know for a fact how we feel and who we are. That's, as far as I'm concerned all that truly matters.

[Gertrude]

Yet, despite all the above, no causation can be established for certain. Speculation, at best. We know for a fact how we feel and who we are. That's, as far as I'm concerned all that truly matters.

Then all science must be speculation. I'm just wondering how that leads to blind faith being superior. I guess it depends...


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[KayXo]

Some science can establish cause and effect.

[Jessica]

Thank you all for all the info girls!  I'd heard about the DES study and that it's theory not proof.
I did not know about the same issues with Progestin.  I am fairly upset that the powers that be allowed DES to be given to pregnant women.  I missed out in a lot of my life because of them!  If I hadn't been exposed to it and born male, I wouldn't of had to live this nightmare of "wrong body".  And if I'd been born female I would have experienced growing up wanting to be a princess 👸and not feel I can't.  I would have had the body I long for now, to get married 👰 and have children.  I think that is one thing that brings me down the most is I'll never be pregnant and hold my baby.
Sorry... that made me cry, Jessica 🙇‍♀️

[Michelle_P]

We currently have data that shows a strong correlation between structure and gender identity. Absolute proof is likely out of reach of current technology and ethics. (I can think of extremely unethical and immoral ways to test the hypothesis, rather rough on the test subjects.)

None of this would affect treatment to resolve gender incongruity. Ultimately we have to honor the integrity of the mind and adjust the body to match, whether through conditioning and presentation, HRT, or surgeries.



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[AnneK]

Yet, despite all the above, no causation can be established for certain. Speculation, at best. We know for a fact how we feel and who we are. That's, as far as I'm concerned all that truly matters.

I don't think speculation is the appropriate word here.  They look at the evidence and see where it leads.  While it might not be proof, it's certainly an indication.  Further research will refine the position.

[Jessica]

The strong desire that I want to be a woman and a mother is proof to me that I have a female brain.  I'll never be a birth mother.
Teary eyed, Jessica

[josie76]

Well as far as DES goes. It is a sythetic estrogen like hormone. BUT it has been studied as it's endocrine disrupter effect. It fully activates 2 estrogen receptors. It has a 7x affinity to one receptor over the other. Unlike estrogens however, it will also latch to several other receptors. In particular to the developing fetus, the androgen receptor. At 1 mml (1 millimole/milliliter) concentration it will block 75% of androgen receptors in an adult. Unlike things like Spiro it does not initiate the fold of the receptor at all. So it makes sense that when enough crosses the placintal barrier it will disrupt the fetus' androgenizing process.

One team of Japanese researchers claim their study of the corpus collosum, the section connecting right and left hemispheres, has had such repeatable and predictable results that they feel they can make a clinical diagnosis if the person is of male or female mind.

The androgen receptor, located on the X chromosome has over 400 mutations in the database. These have been cataloged with the known effects of each one. There is a group which render the androgen receptor completely unable to fold and translocate to the nuclease. These children have testicles formed inside but never develop the wolfarian tubes so the testes do not drop. Their bodies can also not respond to DHT. So they develop female phynotype. The external genitals look female and the genital folds form a shallow vaginal opening. But since there testes did produce Anti Mullerien Hormone, there was no internal female organ growth to connect to the exterior genitals.

Other mutations include a damaged SRY gene. This is what produces Testes Determining Factor protein. With out this the sertoli cells on the proto gonads will not form tessts. Without these cells there is no AMH so the Mullerian tubes form female internal organs and the proto gonads will form ovarian cells instead. This results in a genetic XY fertile woman. Though I suspect only half her eggs will be capable of fertilization.

The same senerio could happen if those first testes cells have a damaged gene and can't make AMH at all. Except she would have some testes structures right next to her ovaries.

How mammals develop due to these interactions was first published in the Royal Society of London, Biology edition in 1970. Science just knows about the genes connected to these hormonal triggers.

[josie76]

The strong desire that I want to be a woman and a mother is proof to me that I have a female brain.  I'll never be a birth mother.
Teary eyed, Jessica

I feel you girl. Been there on and off since my 20s. Later having fathered kids filled most of that instinctual desire for me, but...I still didn't get to carry them, birth them, or nurse them from my own body.