Survey: Are transgender people intersex?

[kuudos]

I've seen both sides to the argument - Intersex people saying that being trans is different from being interesex, but I've also heard trans people make good points: Transgenderism has been categorized by some medical practitioners as an intersex disorder, a mixture of a brain-body switch and hormones present during fetal stage that didn't fully develop, along with the fact that transgender individuals undergoing transition fit the loose definition of intersex - Having physical qualities from both sexes. I would normally class the two as completely separate things, but I started wondering this question again after I did research and learned that transmales often have a mixture of both genitals, even a clit that can get fully erect.

Please forgive me if I've accidently said anything that might be offensive or incorrect, I'm still trying my hardest to learn. What do you think, and why?

[Chloe]

What do you think, and why?

duh No!!! Why? I despise ""professional opinions"" ?

If anything we're "non-binary", "uni-sex"

Who would know better? I suspect You and/or I.
Ever read what the Bible has to say?

(ps: i also suspect someone with 4 posts can't post "surveys")
Your Welcome

[Ashley3]

I've seen both sides to the argument  ... I would normally class the two as completely separate things, but I started wondering this question again ... What do you think, and why?

I claim no expertise in labels but I subscribe that the two labels are generally different but there can be those who experience both... i.e., a trans individual who has an intersex condition. I personally think it's best to view them as different things despite any connections discovered in some cases.

Possibly helpful...

• What is intersex?
• What's the difference between being transgender or transsexual and having an intersex condition?
• From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex ...
  

  "... However, current studies do not support a statistical correlation between genetic intersex traits and transsexual persons.[105][106] ... Intersex can therefore be contrasted with transgender,[107] which describes the condition in which one's gender identity does not match one's assigned sex. ..."

As with all labeling systems, it really depends on whose dictionary you use... find one person with a different definition and you'll find agreement/disagreement.

[Dayta]

Words can have very specific meanings when describing medical diagnoses, and slightly less so in general usage describing social distinctions.  For individual people, words mean to you whatever they mean.  Transphobic people may toss out things like "trans women are not REAL women," without offering an explicit definition of what a "woman" is in their opinion other than "born without a penis." Are they incorrect?  Well, according to their definition of "woman," no, but that's THEIR definition. 

My understanding of "intersex" is one thing if used as a medical term, but more expansive and fluid if being used by someone to describe their own identity.  In general, if someone is claiming a label like "intersex." unless you are a clinician charged with their care, and maybe even then, I would defer to their own assessment. 

A good rule of thumb regarding labels is that they are best used as "descriptive," rather than "prescriptive,"  That is, one ought not determine "oh, I am transgender, and therefore I ought to do..."  Rather, find a label that seems to describe you as you are, and to find others identifying similarly.  Share experiences and learn from each other.  Talk with others identifying differently, maybe discover some new facets of yourself you hadn't seen before. 

Erin

[Lady Sarah]

I would not say they are both the same thing. However, some people with intersex conditions may transition and be trans as well.  There are plenty of intersex people that do not want HRT or surgery in my order to conform to any binary definition, and there are many trans people that refuse to accept any intersex diagnosis, if one exists.

[FTMax]

They are not the same thing, but can lead people down similar paths so generally they get lumped in the same communities.

[Meghan]

I would not say they are both the same thing. However, some people with intersex conditions may transition and be trans as well.  There are plenty of intersex people that do not want HRT or surgery in my order to conform to any binary definition, and there are many trans people that refuse to accept any intersex diagnosis, if one exists.

At first I thought I was crazy with my transgender. Until I research about Transgender and Transexual and I think I fit in this category then intersex.

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[Doreen]

I would not say they are both the same thing. However, some people with intersex conditions may transition and be trans as well.  There are plenty of intersex people that do not want HRT or surgery in my order to conform to any binary definition, and there are many trans people that refuse to accept any intersex diagnosis, if one exists.

I knew I had to 'transition' before I knew I was intersexed.. so you can be both.  I don't claim to be trans however, I claim to be female with some mishaps present at birth

[Meghan]

I knew I had to 'transition' before I knew I was intersexed.. so you can be both.  I don't claim to be trans however, I claim to be female with some mishaps present at birth

I also claim to be female because most of the form don't have third gender. Recently I got a phone call survey about my recent visit to my health care provider, and she asked about sex and I said no to Male, Female but yes to Transgender M2F. I just realized how easy I labeled myself as Transgender.

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[natalie.ashlyne]

No not all transgender people are intersex and not all intersex people are transgender. I am both I have female organs inside of me but I was AMAB as I have male parts as well. I have alway felt female and when I went to the Doctors I found out with after alot of tests.

[josie76]

That really brings up the question of what defines intersex.

Some people are more obvious like if they have complete AIS or if they have some of both sex organs found. Another is when they are born sexually ambiguous. What else defines a person?

I feel like I am somewhere in the realm of intersex. Yes I most definately have a transgender wired brain. What makes me think I am somehow intersex? That is a good question.
What is weird about me could be symptoms of an endocrine disrupter likely DES. Or it could be I may carry one of the mild AR mutation. I don't know about my specific gene as that test is $1000.00. I did get the chromosome test and I know that I do not have any trisomy chromosome condition. But I still have abnormalities. My skeletal bone/joint shapes are ideal for female humans. The position and scale of my pelvic bones is female, as are my knee joint pivot angles and elbows. I have a split penile raphe and what was an unfused perennial raphe. So my exterior genitals are a symtom of either low or partially blocked DHT as the genital folds require DHT to form the male shapes. Could also be a mild AIS symtom. My bone shapes are indicative of either low or blocked testosterone very early in development as the shape of these bones is formed somewhere between 7-12 weeks.

I really still have more questions than answers about my own body. The only thing I know for certain is how I feel and think.

So again we have the question, what defines intersex?
Some people who are diagnosed as intersex have symptoms that could be the result of gene mutation to the AR gene or even one of several others. Their symptoms could also be caused by an external endocrine disrupter. Many times the basic cause can be similar to the cause a person's brain is wired opposite their birth assigned gender.

[natalie.ashlyne]

I think the test name that you are looking for is karyotype.

And  Intersex People whose characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex. Some intersex traits are not always visible at birth; some babies may be born with ambiguous genitals, while others may have ambiguous internal organs (testes and ovaries) as well as intersex is a term that refers to someone whose anatomy or genetics at birth—the X and Y chromosomes that are usually XX for women and XY for men—do not correspond to the typical expectations for either sex.

[Dena]

The site contains two definitions of intersexuality which can be found here and here. It can take many form and while the definition is somewhat general, it can be clearly diagnosed with a proper medical examination.

[Meghan]

The site contains two definitions of intersexuality which can be found here and here. It can take many form and while the definition is somewhat general, it can be clearly diagnosed with a proper medical examination.

This discussion had been an education to all of us.

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[josie76]

Well as far as the definition of intersex, the medical definition leaves the term kind of open for discussion still. Since it includes congenital disorders of "morphic" or "dimorphism", it could include the brain wiring as modern technology along with research gets further along.
Japanese researchers published a study claiming they can clinically diagnose a treansgender person by MRI imaging the shape and size of the rear portion of the corpus collosum. If this study if found to be repeatable by others, then the idea of transgender being a type of intersex condition could be valid based on the definition of it being congenital morphic incongruence.

However some people born intersex feel including "transgender" as a type of intersex trait diminishes the struggle they go through especially those born with ambiguous or not fully formed genetalia. I can understand their point.

[jordn]

Sex and gender are two different things. Are transgender people intersex? No.

But I presume you are talking about transsexual people. So, are transsexual people intersex? No.
I strongly believe that intersex is condition one is born with. It is sex marker, along with male and female. Whereas the word transsexual is not a sex marker, it only indicates that a person underwent sex change. And if someone transitions, e.g. ftm, then they are male, not intersex.

[josie76]

Sex and gender are two different things. Are transgender people intersex? No.

But I presume you are talking about transsexual people. So, are transsexual people intersex? No.
I strongly believe that intersex is condition one is born with. It is sex marker, along with male and female. Whereas the word transsexual is not a sex marker, it only indicates that a person underwent sex change. And if someone transitions, e.g. ftm, then they are male, not intersex.

So your take is that intersex includes only those conditions linked to the sexual organs in one manner or another? I can see that being a clearly defining line then. Otherwise if the broad term "morphic" is used without limiting to the reproductive organs specifically, the definition of Intersex become far more of a grey area.
When looking up insurance law in my home state I found the law defined intersex as being related to the sex organs not congruent with the assigned sex, ambiguous genetalia, or a genetic abnormality.

[Jenntrans]

I really don't know.

I mean I am sitting right now in panties and a bra. I need the bra. Jesus H. Christ. I look down and all I see is about an inch or maybe and inch and a half so how the hell can I be a man.

I took the bra off and I have boobs. A cups but still boobs. I grew these boobs during puberty but something else has never grown. I look like a 5 year old down there. If I let the "bush" grow, the hair will hide it totally. OMG. I hate hair other than on my head.

Do I think I am intersexed? I really don't know. I have boobs that came in during puberty and other things did not grow.

"INTERSEXED" Sexed being the key word. Being trans is not about sex. Sex we all feel eventually but IDENDTITY especially self IDENTITY is something you should be focused on even if outside of societal norms. You are you and only you can define who and what you are.

[Miss Clara]

The traditional meaning of intersex did not take into account the sexual dimorphism of the brain (as reflected in the size of the BSTc and INAH3) which are similar in natal and transsexual women, and in natal and transsexual men.  If you agree that the human brain is an essential part of human sexual reproductive function, it's illogical to exclude it from the definition of intersex.

I consider myself to be intersex because I was born with both male and female parts (male genitals and a female brain).  In other words, I was born neither completely male, nor completely female.  I also consider myself to be a transsexual woman because I've transformed my male body to be as consistent as possible with my female brain. 

The reason I am so positive of being intersex is because of the rapid and remarkable changes that occurred physically, but more importantly mentally, when I changed my sex hormone balance.  The testosterone that my body (testes) was producing had a chronic, deleterious effect on my mental state.   At least half of my gender dysphoria vanished when the body chemistry incompatibilities were corrected.

I'm not saying that all transgender people are intersex by this expanded definition of intersex  There are other factors that cause transgenderism, not all of which are pre-natal.  But just as an intersex person with ambiguous genitalia can be transgender by having their genitals normalized in conflict with their innate gender identity, so too can someone whose genitals are not ambiguous be transgender if their innate gender identity is in conflict with their genitals.  Both are congenital aberrations that may or may not require medical treatment depending on the severity of the incongruity.

[Jenntrans]

Actually I hate the term sex. How about Intergendered? Sex to me is an act of pleasure. Gender on the other hand is a form of identity either self or in society. OMG I like sex but what I got does not identify who and what I am. I may be called a "chick with a dick" but I am still a woman. I am a she male because I am a female with the body of a male even with the boobs which the medical term is gynecomastia but that term does no offend me either.

So intersex? No. Not so much as intergender. But in general human minds are small and they somehow relate gender to sex. Oh I love sex but I am a woman with a penis. That small thing does not define who I am though.

So I really don't know. Being Inter means you travel across lines so maybe. Probably not in a medical sense ever but, maybe.