When should one consider FFS?

[Leigh]

You forgot to name the women who are in power.

[stephanie]

'Kay fine we'll play this game.

women leaders of foreign countries: (current or former)

Indira Ghandhi, PM of India
Benazir Bhutto, PM of Pakistan (an Islamic state at that)
Golda Meir, Israel
Elisabeth Domitien, Central African Republic
Margaret Thatcher, former PM of UK
Edith Cresson, former PM of France
Hanna Suchocka, Poland
Helen Clark, New Zealand
A. Kim Campbell, Canada

that's just a few that caught my eye.

Leaders of Fortune 500 companies: (not sure if theyr'e in the top 100 or not, sorry I don't do research well)

Meg Whitman, CEO eBay
Carlton Fiorina, former CEO of Hewlett-Packard
Shelley Lazarus, CEO Ogilvy & Mather
Andrea Jung, President and CEO Avon
Patricia Russo, CEO Lucent Technologies
Anne Mulcahy, CEO Xerox

(all of which did substantially better than most other Fortune 500's in recent fiscal years)

Women Governors of the US:

Jennifer Granholm, Michigan (D)
Janet Napolitano, Arkansas (R)
Ruth Ann Minner, Delaware, (D)
Linda Lingle, Hawaii (R)
Kathleen Sebelius, Kansas (D)
Kathleen Blanco, Louisiana (D)
Haley Barbour, Mississippi (R)
Christine Gregoire, Washington (D)


All in all, not bad for 30 minutes of research on Google.

And if you think this list isn't long enough and that still not enough women are in power, just think of how much shorter this list would have been five, twenty, or fifty years ago.  I'd say women are slowly but surely making progress toward true equality.

Now can we get back on topic?

[wajdi]

HA!!!!  In our house, the wife's in charge.  ROFLMFAO!!

wajdi

[Cailyn]

Whenever you want for whatever reason YOU chose.  It's your body, your face, and your life, period.  Don't do it for any man or woman other than yourself.  Don't not do it out of fear that you may pander to the whims of a patriarchal society--sorry but that really is feminist thinking at it's worst.  That this conversation has been highjacked by some ideologues makes a mockery of this place as a support group.  Hate men?  I don't care but since some of the visitors here might be enlightened men or transmen, why don't you save your male bashing for a board devoted to that cause.   If one of the driving concepts behind feminism is liberation from the confines of male-privilege and patriarchy, it shouldn't also confine women inside a new box called "feminist cant" defining certain behaviors as anti-woman or male-influenced and therefore unacceptable.  This much is true: there is no look, no behavior, no attitude that defines a woman.  She can look like a fairy princess or a man, she can have facial hair or not, smooth skinned or wrinkled by life, anything you can imagine.  And if she is happy with herself, let no one tell her she needs to change. If she isn't, decides she wants to change her manner, her dress, or her look–for her–then NONE of you have any right to judge her choice. 

Cailyn

[Leigh]

I don't believe that anything was said about can't, only that the reasons be for yourself.

One of the purposes of a forum or support group is to present other views and options.  Differing opinions may give someone pause before they do something that later they may regret.  Total support is not only foolish it can be outright dangerous.

[beth]

the whole point of a transsexual having FFS is to make herself look like she feels inside. hormones, clothes, hair and even SRS to some degree serve the same purpose. while i agree with lots of what has been said, i don't see the relevance to transsexuals and FFS.


naming 10 or 15 (or even 1000)         women that were past or present leaders out of the millions and millions of men is a pretty weak argument IMO




beth

[Cailyn]

Quote:  I don't believe that anything was said about can't, only that the reasons be for yourself.

I didn't mean cant in the sense of cannot but in the sense of cant by Webster's definition:
phraseology or language peculiar to a particular class--ie feminists.  I think dogma would have been a better word.

I agree total support may be more harmful than good but this was straying a long way from the pros and cons of FFS.  The philosopical discussion of gender role and male privilege belongs somewhere else.

Cailyn

[Thundra]

<<< I agree total support may be more harmful than good but this was straying a long way from the pros and cons of FFS.  The philosopical discussion of gender role and male privilege belongs somewhere else. >>>

That may be your opinion, but I totally disagree.  If we are speaking to "when" a person should consider FFS, than I think you ought first consider "If" a person should consider FFS. 

And IMNSHO, I do not think anyone should, based on the reasons I've stated.  If someone chooses to go along with the whims of the patriarchy, that is their choice alone.  But, it does not change the fact, that by doing so, you are supporting the patriarchy and everything it stands for.

Women are oppressed. Women are held to standards of beauty that men are not. Women are expected to look this way/or that to be considered acceptable. Men make it easy to comply with their cookie-cutter approach by creating FFS.  Men help support a media that makes woman objects of desire with no substance.

So, women feel pressured to comply or to feel/be inadequate, based on a man's opinion of what a woman should be/look like.

Going along with the patriarchal system men have set up to alter women is supporting that system.  Woman have the choice to choose to do nothing instead.  "If," not "When."

[Kimberly]

As was mentioned "when" comes after "if". Note the title of this thread.

Also, I was advised 18 months after HRT starts before any surgery. (To give time for hormones to do their work, which should help the surgeon get things in proportion.)

[Cailyn]

And IMNSHO, I do not think anyone should, based on the reasons I've stated.  If someone chooses to go along with the whims of the patriarchy, that is their choice alone.  But, it does not change the fact, that by doing so, you are supporting the patriarchy and everything it stands for. 

You are making one huge unsupportable assumption and overgeneralization; that is, simply because a woman chooses to have FFS, that her choice necessarily supports the patriarchy.  This is nonsense because an enlightened woman can make such a choice entirely outside the bounds of the patriarchy to satisfy HER idea of what her face should look like or what a woman is.  It may have NOTHING to do with beauty as defined by soceity or otherwise.  You are actually insulting those women who can think, live, and act outside the patriarchy and make choices that are entirely their own.  Sorry, you do not speak for me. 

Women are oppressed. Women are held to standards of beauty that men are not. Women are expected to look this way/or that to be considered acceptable. Men make it easy to comply with their cookie-cutter approach by creating FFS.  Men help support a media that makes woman objects of desire with no substance.   

The first three statements are true, the fourth is nonsense.  FFS exists because there is a demand for it and the reasons for the demand is far more complex than your tired feminist dogma suggests.  The last is true and FFS is the least of worries in the general sexual objectification of women.  Media stories about attractive white women in distress--the runaway bride or several prominent kidnapping cases and the general increase in media violence against women--those are the things that worry me more.

So, women feel pressured to comply or to feel/be inadequate, based on a man's opinion of what a woman should be/look like.   

Overgeneralizaton and assumption.  Many women do; not all women do.

Going along with the patriarchal system men have set up to alter women is supporting that system.  Woman have the choice to choose to do nothing instead.  "If," not "When."

Do nothing?  How about step ahead in the world on their own?  How about overcoming oppression and, as the best revenge against the patriarchy, living well?  Damned if I'll do nothing.

Cailyn

[Thundra]

<<< You are making one huge unsupportable assumption and overgeneralization; that is, simply because a woman chooses to have FFS, that her choice necessarily supports the patriarchy.  This is nonsense because an enlightened woman can make such a choice entirely outside the bounds of the patriarchy to satisfy HER idea of what her face should look like or what a woman is. >>>

I am happy that you hold your opinion so passionately, but.......
I strongly disagree.  In my book, your either support the patriarchy, our you do not.  Line in the sand on this one. I fully acknowledge your right to have your own opinion, to express it, and to the absolute right to follow thru on your decision.  Please, go and have the FFS procedure.  But, make no mistake here.  That choice is going to alienate you from some other womyn out there, not just myself.  Simply stated, we are both women, but we are enemies too.  I see you as a collaborator in the war twixt the sexes. I see you aiding and abetting the enemy. As a women, I am always happy to see another making choices available for herself.  But, I see this as a very unwise choice.

[Cassandra]

My word Thundra! You do live up to your name. Such declarative statements. I guess I'm safe from your enemies list as I do not desire FFS or breast implants. I am rather fond of my natural beauty. But this line in the sand thing!

By your reasoning of not cowtowing to the male patriarchy, you should not go in for SRS as the male patriarchy holds that a woman must have a vagina. In which case I might still make that enemies list as I have every intention of getting that surgery.

Simply stated, we are both women, but we are enemies too.  I see you as a collaborator in the war twixt the sexes. I see you aiding and abetting the enemy. As a woman, I am always happy to see another making choices available for herself.

If you support the choice does not this make you a collaborator in the war too? I would consider carefully such a position it tends to put ones back against the wall. And what of the FTMs are they also going to make the enemies list because they go for Masculinization FMS, or chest correction?

I respect your opinion and understand your desire to be a freedom fighter for women but I find hardline dogma, narrow and restrictive. Too often it is foisted on those who like those things which the opposing side seems to find so offensive, even though some in the opposing side did not intend for such to be so.

It's like when hardline feminist rail against some guy for opening a door for them. Personally I like guys to hold the door for me but these days that gets hard to come by as many are understandably gun shy. I sure hope that is not the battle flag you are flying.


Good Journey,

Cassie

[stephanie_craxford]

As was mentioned "when" comes after "if". Note the title of this thread.

Hello everyone.

Kimberly mentioned this earlier

As was mentioned "when" comes after "if". Note the title of this thread.

Please note the title of the tread.  While this debate is very interesting I don't think that you are answering her initial question -

Though I feel unfortunately certain that I will never pass with the exact facial structure I currently possess. I am, however, not sure how long after HRT has started that one can get a general idea of what their face will eventually look like. This makes it difficult to estimate exactly what needs to be done.

*ponders*

This leads me to the question of when one should consider FFS?

maybe Thundra could start another new topic on wether FFS is right or wrong?  Hint, hint.

Chat later Steph

[Cailyn]

Please, go and have the FFS procedure.  But, make no mistake here.  That choice is going to alienate you from some other womyn out there, not just myself.  Simply stated, we are both women, but we are enemies too.  I see you as a collaborator in the war twixt the sexes. I see you aiding and abetting the enemy. As a women, I am always happy to see another making choices available for herself.  But, I see this as a very unwise choice.

I've had FFS.  I am not beautiful, I am not pretty, I don't consider myself attractive which is okay because I have no interest in men or women.  I am assexual so my looks are immaterial to my existence beyond my reflection in the mirror.  You have ignored one of the most obvious reasons a woman would have facial surgery besides attempting to adhere to some arbitrary standard of beauty: to correct a birth defect.  As a woman, I hated the effects testosterone had rendered on my face.  My surgery did not beautify me, it simply removed the effects of testosterone and left my face as it would have had I been born a natal woman.  See me as a collaborator if you wish.  You miss the essence of the pain I suffered with that face.  I doubt we'd be having this discussion if I had a cleft palate surgically corrected instead.  With so much blatant sexism and sexual oppression in the world, perhaps you've forgotten what the real issues are?

Cailyn

[edit] Fixed the quote box[/edit]

[beth]

quote from thundra,


"I think that by trying to 'fit(ting) a female norm' as you phrase it, is dangerous, if not deluded. My point, is that there is no norm.  I think that you are drawing on too small a sample of the female population in making your statement of generality.

Woman come in every size and shape. You might be very surprised by some of the women you might meet, then methinks, because I've no doubt you would not know some of them were not men?  For instance, I had a roommate, that had the biggest %$#@#$%^ head I have ever seen.  It, was, huge.  And she was built larger and was stronger than almost all of the men she worked with, but she was still a natal female.  And, she is not an aberation, or just "the exception.""


I do not doubt for a second, that if 100 women and 100 men of all ages were photographed without makeup or hair, that i could determine the birth sex of each. i might miss a few, which does make her an exception. let's get real here. thundra, what you are saying does apply to women born in female bodies that just want make their appearance more conforming to the patriarchy defined idea of beauty,  i agree completely. all women are so very beautiful just as they are. women born with a deformed face are not the same. a large deformity causes people they meet to focus on the defect and not the person. a woman born without a nose could have that defect repaired without "supporting the patriarchy" just as a woman born with a man's face could have her defect repaired with FFS. If a woman appears to be a man (i wont use the P word) she can be accepted by those who know her well, but those that do not know her will make unfair judgements that will not allow them to see who she is or get to know her. this should not be the case but unfortunately it is. FFS for MTF transsexuals that have a male appearing face is not the same as elective cosmetic surgery for those that already appear female. Men did not decide what a female looks like naturally. men decided how a "beautiful" woman is built, height, weight her facial features, her hair, clothes etc. and they decided how we should act to meet their convoluted approval.         FFS should change male facial characteristics to more closely match those of females. FFS should make you appear more like you would have if your were not born with this terrible birth defect. adding male determined beauty enhancements to the surgery does help to perpetuate male defined beauty and adds to the burden of all women.

beth

[Thundra]

<sigh>

<<<< just as a woman born with a man's face could have her defect repaired with FFS. >>>>

You are simply not getting it!   The point is, that there are no men's faces and women's faces.  And the differences that one might see tend to disappear with age! If anything, a woman that chooses to have any kind of facial surgery is more notieable and tends to blend in less as she ages.  If the reason for most people that chose to have FFS is to "pass," than they are accomplishing the opposite!  They are drawing attention to themselves.


<<<< If a woman appears to be a man (i wont use the P word) she can be accepted by those who know her well, but those that do not know her will make unfair judgements that will not allow them to see who she is or get to know her. this should not be the case but unfortunately it is. >>>>

But what about all of the natal females that suffer that very indignity?  One of my ex's always got picked on when she went into the women's room, based on how she was dressed, and she was like, a 50EEE?  Unfortunately, people have been conditioned to act a certain way <stupid> and that is not gonna change with FFS.  Someone somewhere is always going to find a reason to pick on someone else to make themselves feel better.

If you spend the rest of your life trying to anticipate the needs of what other people expect from you, and the rest of your time and energy trying to placate them, then how will you find time to live life and enjoy yourself? You cannot enjoy the world if you are stuck in a permanent state of self-criticism, and waiting to do that one last thing to fix yourself.  I have seen so many peeps do all kinda stuff to try and "pass," and someone always reads them, because they are trying to pass.  You cannot fool all of the people all of the time.  There is no point in passing.

<<<< FFS for MTF transsexuals that have a male appearing face is not the same as elective cosmetic surgery for those that already appear female. Men did not decide what a female looks like naturally. men decided how a "beautiful" woman is built, height, weight her facial features, her hair, clothes etc. and they decided how we should act to meet their convoluted approval. >>>>

How can you say that?  If you are a woman, just like them, then FFS is as cosmetic in nature for you, as it is for them, cause there is no you and them, there are only women.

And if you know that men's approval is convoluted, then why are you wasting your time to try and earn it?  As my 80 year old mother would say, that does not make any sense.

[beth]

"You are simply not getting it!   The point is, that there are no men's faces and women's faces."

we simply disagree on this point, i believe there is a difference that can be seen by most people. if you were right, and there were no differences then there would be no need for FFS, but there is a need for many transsexuals. just tonite i saw a documentary on women who bodybuild and take testosterone and it was obvious in their faces and voices. you may know of exceptions but that does not support your position that there is no difference in facial features between men and women. Your position is that if we took a group of men and women, shaved their heads and took portraits that no one could tell the men from the women? i find that absurd. would their be some in the group that were exceptions? yes, i agree.


"How can you say that?  If you are a woman, just like them, then FFS is as cosmetic in nature for you, as it is for them, cause there is no you and them, there are only women."

you lost me with this logic, i was born with a penis also, so some women have a penis and i should keep mine?


"And if you know that men's approval is convoluted, then why are you wasting your time to try and earn it?  As my 80 year old mother would say, that does not make any sense."

where did that come from? i never said FFS was for mens approval, that is you position. you are not making sense. i could care less what men think of me. i am personally not getting FFS because i don't think it is necessary at my age with my face. it is appropriate for many MTFs though.



beth

[Shelley]

I have seen this thread through many posts whether it be about makeup, high heels or surgery.

What happened to personal choice made based on personal feelings and perception. Why when someone raises pratices of feminisation such as clothing, makeup and even surgery is it assumed by some that it must be to satisfy men. Are women truly this easy to be manipulated by men and are TG women this easily manipulated by men. I think not.

I think that these decisions are made based on aligning what the world sees with the perceived image of the individual and not on external pressures. Undergoing surgery is a personal choice and while a very serious choice non the less one made by an individual to meet that individuals needs.

I personally find this "done to satisfy men" comment more closely aligned to the TG's being grouped in with Gays thinking. The thinking that that person is TG and therefore Gay shows ignorance of the TG issue. We represent like other sectors of society a wide cross-section of society, some gay some not, some undecided and some sure. There is quite likely some who do things to please men but by indicating that we all are doing what we do is for that reason is like saying we must all be gay.

We are all individuals although many of us are confused by the TGism we find ourselves in. I wish to celebrate those who make clear decisions on the direction they wish to follow. I see a need to have open discussion with those who make decisions, particularly those who choose the very serious steps of surgery, to ensure that they have considered all ramifications and risks. I cannot however agree with those who profess to know the inner thinkings of others. I also find those that try to slot their reasoning into very small pigeon holes a little concerning. Is that not what our detractors do.

Understanding and support do not require judgement. Understanding and support can need guidance but once a decision is made for personal growth only support is needed and perhaps access to shared experiences.

I therefore wish to support those who make decisions for themselves and want to also let them know that whatever path is chosen by an individual here I support your right to make that choice. At the same time some of those choices are not for me and that is the point. Choices made by others are not for me, they are for them, and are based on their reasoning and it would be wrong for me to apply my thinking to their choice other than in my own circumstances.

I also support therefore the right of people here to discuss what is not for them but not the right to judge what is right for others. I believe that to be the tenent behind the rule to argue the topic and not against the individual. I therefore also invite others to discuss whether this works for them but discourage judgement calls against me or my thinking. That is of course unless I break the rules of Susans and encroach upon the rights of others.

I shall now step down from my soap box and go about my daily business.

Shelley

[stephanie]

Very well said, Shelley, I agree with you 200%.  Do what you feel is right for you.

[stephanie_craxford]

I have to agree Shelley

To answer Kimberly's question...

This leads me to the question of when one should consider FFS?

I think it's quite simple - You should consider FFS when you believe if will make you feel better about yourself.  What anyone else thinks doesn't mean monkeys, and who cares.  I do things for me not for anyone else, and if there are those who don't agree, then guess what - I don't care

If you want it - do it - and do it well 

Steph