Can one live as their target gender without passing?

[Suzy]

Well, with the way you look hon, I see why you would think it's possible. But presentation and attitude can really only go so far. I've been told I am a man whilst in a bathing suit with cleavage hanging out. I've been told I am more man than woman while nude. So I'm not lacking in manliness or confidence. I've done everything possible in my situation since my teens to look male. All to no avail. I simply look like a woman.
No amount of 'wanting it badly enough' is going to change that.

Nero, sweetie, I'm not suggesting that it will happen just by wishing.  And it is true that I don't know all of what you have tried.  But I have seen your intelligence and your determination, and I admire them both.  Put simply, it seems like you are looking for an excuse to give up.  I'm not letting you off that easy.  I believe in you.  There is a way.  I hope you will put your energy into finding it, not into self-destruction.  Don't give up on your dreams.  I care way too much about you and don't want to see that happen.

BTW, thanks so much for the compliment, but that's not really the issue.  No one here has seen my male pictures from not too many years ago.

Oh, and by the way, I'd still be willing to do the body part swap whenever you are ready.   

Kristi

[Nero]

Well, with the way you look hon, I see why you would think it's possible. But presentation and attitude can really only go so far. I've been told I am a man whilst in a bathing suit with cleavage hanging out. I've been told I am more man than woman while nude. So I'm not lacking in manliness or confidence. I've done everything possible in my situation since my teens to look male. All to no avail. I simply look like a woman.
No amount of 'wanting it badly enough' is going to change that.

Nero, sweetie, I'm not suggesting that it will happen just by wishing.  And it is true that I don't know all of what you have tried.  But I have seen your intelligence and your determination, and I admire them both.  Put simply, it seems like you are looking for an excuse to give up.  I'm not letting you off that easy.  I believe in you.  There is a way.  I hope you will put your energy into finding it, not into self-destruction.  Don't give up on your dreams.  I care way too much about you and don't want to see that happen.

BTW, thanks so much for the compliment, but that's not really the issue.  No one here has seen my male pictures from not too many years ago.

Oh, and by the way, I'd still be willing to do the body part swap whenever you are ready.   

Kristi

Thanks for the compliments, hon. I really do I appreciate it. But until and IF  :'(I can have HRT, passing is just a dream. I don't blame you for thinking as you do because it has clearly worked for you - I was shocked upon hearing you weren't even on HRt. I had assumed you'd had HRt +FFS. But some of us look too much like our birth sex to pass at all without the proper hormones.

[tinkerbell]

Sure, it'd be easier if I passed for a GG 100% of the time. And yes, it's a *direction* I pursue... but moreso as most women would want to be prettier, and not as some "goal" needed to achieve and maintain my so-called "womanhood" at last. Transition to me is about GETTING OVER my gender obsession, not enhancing it. Transition to me isn't about moving from one gender prison to another, it's about getting rid of this stupid obsession which has plagued me my entire life.

Everyone is different Kate.  If this makes YOU content with yourself, then this is all it should matter.  Now if I may, your situation is VERY different from mine.  As far as I am concerned, you transitioned on the job.  Your co-workers know your past, you are NOT stealth at work or IRL, am I correct? So IMO, it is easier for your co-workers to assimilate your transition, for you are there to educate them should there be any stupid questions (on their part).  MY life is the opposite.  I am stealth (perhaps, deep stealth for some people) at work and IRL with friends, acquaintances, neighbors, the grocery store down the street. the postman, the milkman, etc.  I CAN'T afford being "discovered".  I am sorry for not going into details but trust me, I can't.  If for some of you, that means that I am "obsessed", well so be it, I am not going to argue with any of you.  It's Friday, it's been a long week, and I am tired!

All I am going to say is that each one of us lives life the best we can, we have priorities, careers, a reputation to guard.  If for some of you, living like YOURSELVES is all you need, wonderful! and kuddos to you, I applaud you, but please let's not suggest that everyone should think or act in the same way.  As I have said here a zillion times, we just give our opinions based on our life experiences.  It's obvious (to me at least) that our experiences are never going to match for a number of reasons.  If they did, that would mean we are all the same and we simply aren't.

tink

[Rachael]

thing is tho tink, is it even that much effort anymore?
i had fun recently when i got a new job at uni, just part time mind, but i applyed with an androgynous name, as i was embaraced and didnt think id pass well enough and they wouldnt give the ->-bleeped-<- a job, (i was starving and NEEDED  the job)
andro version of my legal name, baggy jeans and a hoodie, hired, and havent been considered anything but female since... im entirely stealth with my co workers by accident.... its a most amusing situation.... it might be slogging my  butt off for hours on end, but its slogging my butt off  and interacting the same as any other girl would... thats living the life of your target gender... when you yourself forget to think about things for a while...
R

[tinkerbell]

Incidentally nice picture Rachael!

I don't know Rachael.  *I* don't want to be seen as a ->-bleeped-<-.  I am pretty convinced that if people (I know) knew about me, their perception pertaining to my person would change dramatically; that's reality, we live here in the real world and people are just horrible! They pretend to be nice but behind your back, they talk hell.  I see it everyday with this Janet woman.  Sorry, I don't want to be another "Janet", but again that is just me and I am just weird! 

tink

[Keira]

Rachael, I think its naive to think people will not change
their behavior if they knew your were TS, even if
you passed 100%. For some, the difference would
be so minor as to be trivial, but for others, they would
change their way of treating you immensily (and as
Tink say, it is the hypocrites that you have the most to
fear from). Many will seemingly not change their
behavior then bad mouth you day and night in your back
slowly making your life a living hell and making sure
you'll never be treated as female by anybody no matter
how you look.

[melissa90299]

Incidentally nice picture Rachael!

I don't know Rachael.  *I* don't want to be seen as a ->-bleeped-<-.  I am pretty convinced that if people (I know) knew about me, their perception pertaining to my person would change dramatically; that's reality, we live here in the real world and people are just horrible! They pretend to be nice but behind your back, they talk hell.  I see it everyday with this Janet woman.  Sorry, I don't want to be another "Janet", but again that is just me and I am just weird! 

tink

I have cissexual privilege whether or not people know. Why? Because people see me as a woman. People who know my past have a hard time fathoming the fact that I was ever perceived as anything other than a woman. Unfortunately, people see Janet as a man and have a hard time seeing her as a woman. It is sad but that is the lot of the TS who doesn't present well. It is not a question of "passing"or not "passing" or being stealth or being out. It is how people (generally) see you. BTW people talk behind your back about things that have nothing to do with gender. These same people are most likely talking behind your back too about one thing or the other. It is just that Janet is easier to pick on.

[Keira]

But Melissa, instead of Janet, it was Tink we were talking about.
She's been working stealth there for a while with no prob.
And even if people talk behind your back, its rare it doesn't
come back to you and you don't know about it.

So, if someone told others that Tink was TS with proof in hand.
Would that change their behavior regarding her, regardless of
her passing. I believe it would in many cases, but not all
cases. That's a sad fact.

Now, if something like that would happen to someone stealth,
just imagine what happens with someone not so blessed
by passability fairy.

[Rachael]

I know EXACTLY what you mean tink.... i HATE the label transexual, it just has so much baggage. i dont want to be seen as some pitty case, or weirdo. lets be honest, in the real world, that name carrys those labels.... Im entirely happy to ignore that past, and move on as much as i can while pre op (my hangup currently) Im a girl, i dont WANT others to see me as anything but....]
(and thanks, just be being a gothic tomboy  for lulz)

Kiera: im not sure i understand you, i didnt suggest they would think the same of you even knowing did i? i know they would change thier behaviour, its why i do my damnedest not to let them change thier mind!
R

[melissa90299]

But Melissa, instead of Janet, it was Tink we were talking about.

Excuse me, Tink was talking about Janet fearing that she would become another "Janet" if someone outed her. That would never happen IMO i.e. people treating Tink like Janet.

BTW if all you guys are going to continue to talk about "passing" so much, I wish you would put in quotation marks. The term "passing" implies deception and that is just wrong.

Anyone who would treat me differently if they knew would not be someone I would want to associate with anyway so I certainly would not allow them to rent space in my head. What someone else thinks of me is none of my business. Going through life putting such a high priority on what others think of you only leads to misery.

[Steph]

I know EXACTLY what you mean tink.... i HATE the label transexual, it just has so much baggage. i dont want to be seen as some pitty case, or weirdo. lets be honest, in the real world, that name carrys those labels.... Im entirely happy to ignore that past, and move on as much as i can while pre op (my hangup currently) Im a girl, i dont WANT others to see me as anything but....]


(and thanks, just be being a gothic tomboy  for lulz)

Kiera: im not sure i understand you, i didnt suggest they would think the same of you even knowing did i? i know they would change thier behaviour, its why i do my damnedest not to let them change thier mind!
R

I think that the sooner folks see the term "transsexual" as a temporay one the better off we will all be.  I've always felt, and believed with all my heart that that part of me which people refer to as being transsexual is but an expression of where I was.  I see transsexual as simply being the journey its self, nothing more.  I was, and always will be a woman but to satisfy societal requirements I needed to embark on a journey that culminated in a rebirth of sorts, a metamorphosis, similar to the butterfly which grows from a chrysalis to a splendid creature.  May be that's over stating the issue but I think it's important that "TS" see it as such.  We are not "TS" we are women (Men).

Steph

[Rachael]

i grew up a girl living as a boy... now im all girl... what exactly is trans there?
R

[Cire]

i grew up a girl living as a boy... now im all girl... what exactly is trans there?
R

You TRANSitioned how you were living (Boy to girl).

Simple, really.

[Rachael]

my point was whats trans about me now, not ever
R

[Keira]

In a work setting Melissa, you might know what's going on
in a person's head (through the grapevine), but with
many people with which our association is looser,
you may never know. So, how can you cut them off
if you don't know they're humoring you. Or does it
even matter? It depends how much of an hypocrite these
people are. For some, they will treat you differently,
but the difference will be slight, but others may be
two faced! Good thing that since your stealth you
don't have to live those 2 faced creeps.

I prefer someone who hates me openly.

[Nero]

I prefer someone who hates me openly.

Me too. There's no bigger turn on.

[Cire]

my point was whats trans about me now, not ever
R

That's not what you said.  If you're 100% female now, you're done transitioning.

[SarahFaceDoom]

I'd say there are lots of people who aren't even transgender that don't pass as their target gender very well, but they live their lives anyways.

There are also a lot of people who are "passing" but not living as their target gender.

Passing and living as your target gender don't actually have much to do with one another.

Interesting. Could you elaborate on that?

The gene pool in some parts of the United States and world doesn't run exceptionally deep, and at times will produce members of one sex or the other whose natural looks do not correspond with their genetalia.  But they still go on to live their lives as their target gender, which just happens to be the one that corresponds to their genetalia.  Because gender is not physical so much as mental.  I've known many men who have very feminine features, voices, and sizes--but who compensate with a strong grasp of male gender identity and if you spent any time with them you'd be like "OH that's a guy, he just happens to look like a girl, poor guy."

Conversely there are people too, some in the trans community, who  "pass" marvelously, and at first glance look like runway models or super hunks--but whose insides are so rotted away with self doubt about "passing" that they are not really living the life of their target gender.  They are living the life of someone who doesn't want to be caught.

If you are actually worrying about stealth and passing on a day to day schedule, then you are not living as your target gender(I don't even like that word target gender).  I hate to break it to you, but people who are truly living in one gender or the other, do not spend it worrying about if they are fooling people.

Which is I think where this disconnect lies.  You can flat out not look like your target gender.  But if you have it right in your head, and you aren't worrying about passing, and you're just living your life as one gender or another--then you are that gender.

At the end of the day all of us with dysphoria just want to look in the mirror and see the person we are staring back at us.  Whether you take hormones and have surgeries to get there or not, the end place we're all looking for is the same.  And nothing society does or doesn't do for you is going to finish the journey for you.

Posted on: December 08, 2007, 12:03:36 AM

my point was whats trans about me now, not ever
R

Your past when you were presenting as a gender different from the one that you are presenting now.  Pretty sure that makes you trans.

[katia]

my point was whats trans about me now, not ever
R

Your past when you were presenting as a gender different from the one that you are presenting now.  Pretty sure that makes you trans.

i will disagree on that.  once you've made the mental transition (as well as the physical one) there's nothing "trans" about us.  if you wanna label yourself as trans, good, be my guest, but if i were you, i wouldn't speak for everybody here

Posted on: December 08, 2007, 12:15:46 AM

my point was whats trans about me now, not ever
R

That's not what you said.  If you're 100% female now, you're done transitioning.

first off i'd like to know what you mean by "done transitioning"..

[SarahFaceDoom]

my point was whats trans about me now, not ever
R

Your past when you were presenting as a gender different from the one that you are presenting now.  Pretty sure that makes you trans.

i will disagree on that.  once you've made the mental transition (as well as the physical one) there's nothing "trans" about us.  if you wanna label yourself as trans, good, be my guest, but if i were you, i wouldn't speak for everybody here

You mean here at Susan's Place TRANSgender Forums

If there's nothing trans about you, then why would you be posting on a transgender forum about transgender issues from a first person perspective to other transgender people?