Can one live as their target gender without passing?

[katia]

my identity has nothing "transgender" in it.  my history does.  people need to make the distinction between the two.  until that happens, you are just...never mind....

[SarahFaceDoom]

my identity has nothing "transgender" in it.  my history does.  people need to make the distinction between the two.  until that happens, you are just...never mind....

I think people need to understand that being transgender doesn't invalidate your identity as a man or woman or androgyne.  It's like saying being homosexual invalidates your identity as a man or a woman.  NO.  It's just two things you are that are concurrent. But one doesn't take anything away from the other, unless you let it.  You're transgender, AND you are the gender you are presenting as.

[katia]

I think people need to understand that being transgender doesn't invalidate your identity as a man or woman or androgyne.  It's like saying being homosexual invalidates your identity as a man or a woman.  NO.  It's just two things you are that are concurrent. But one doesn't take anything away from the other, unless you let it.  You're transgender, AND you are the gender you are presenting as.

you forgot to mention that this is JUST YOUR OPINION.  Make sure to state that fact on every post so that ppl know what they are dealing with

[Keira]

Sarah, define yourself as you wish.
I hate having to say TS, so hey, that's me.
Nowaday, with name change done and
things slowly shaping, I don't have to
accept or feel part of the TS tribe.
Though, that doesn't mean I'm spitting
on them or won't help them.

[SarahFaceDoom]

I think people need to understand that being transgender doesn't invalidate your identity as a man or woman or androgyne.  It's like saying being homosexual invalidates your identity as a man or a woman.  NO.  It's just two things you are that are concurrent. But one doesn't take anything away from the other, unless you let it.  You're transgender, AND you are the gender you are presenting as.

you forgot to mention that this is JUST YOUR OPINION.  Make sure to state that fact on every post so that ppl know what they are dealing with

What part of "I think" doesn't imply that it's my opinion?

[cindybc]

Hi, well, me don't want to step on anyone's toes..."ouch!" That would hurt if you have corns! 

What I can do is tell you about my experience of transitioning and fitting in, and I mean, fitting in. Fitting in does not exactly mean you pass the test completely, here's your grade, go home and enjoy.

I was fitting in quite well with the folks in town, both male and female. After 7 years' living as Cindy and ten years working as a social worker, I had pretty well nearly forgot about my roots as a transsexual or anything else dealing with TS. TAfter the SRS the notion of transsexuality, had kind of slowly drifted away and sublimating into the cosmos.

Thinking back, it now appears that the people's acceptance of me and those I associated with and did business with every day may also have have been the result my forgetting who I was before. After a while, I certainly had no reason to want to go back or review that part of my past.

To each his/her own, but I believe that for me it depended much on attitude and personality as to how people accepted me. Let's say if I come into a certain scene being cautious loving and caring grandmother type doing her job complete with the heart smile, people will accept me well enough. At least they did with this aging lady who still has the stamina of a teenager and a sense of humor that would rival that of Lucille Ball, when I feel like it.

Now I am slowly building that type of relationship with the people of Vancouver. I always carry my little bag of humor with me.

So the answer is "NO" I am no longer transsexual, but the transitional part continues for life. How can one remember all of the female aspects of the female within? Some of us have only been in touch with female side for a very short time, as compared with the total female psyche we have only touched upon thus far. Even the researchers do not know yet the full depth and implications of the  gender dysphoria enigma yet.

Life is change.  When change ceases, so does life.  Each of us changes with each passing day, each second.  We change molecularly, cellularly, experientially, from one second to the next we are a different person, however slighty, but different.  In that regard we are all transitioning.

Cindy

[SarahFaceDoom]

Oooooo fitting in is a much  better word than passing, and encompasses more something akin to reality.

[Blanche]

[What part of "I think" doesn't imply that it's my opinion?

Oh goodness good!  you save yourself a smite

[Rachael]

To be honest Sarah, your saying that being trans, doesnt invalidate your being man, woman or androgyne, and comparing that with sexuality, is like saying well, bowl, plate, or cup,  thier all the same right? your comparing the receptical to the content in a way... you can put a dish in each receptical, like sexuality, but your comparing that carry capacity to the whole type of receptical....
Identifying, or being told you must id as, or that you ARE, trans, DOES invalidate one as a simple man or woman (lets leave androgyne out, the stealth point is mute here...
In this world, now, being out as trans makes you 'that trans guy' or 'that transgirl' you are never normal, thus, invalidated imo. If society could accept it, it would be a different story. for now, im happy existing as a normal girl. my mind, and identity is as such:
Female
20 years old
British
Northern
Privately educated
at university
geographer
Sporty
into Rock music
Dj part time
these are things that make up me, things that without, id not be me....
trans isnt on that list. the same way that a child born with a cleft pallet doesnt drag that label around with them waving the banner and singing thier lungs out all thier life... Why be proud something painful was fixed? why should it be come part of your identity? so you lived though a bad time... do you se ex manic depressive people consantly reminding folk they once were? or adding 'depressive' to thier identity?

I transitioned, because my life was unlivable... ive not changed who i am. im the same girl born 20 years ago in that hospital. i just look right now. My personality is near identical, slight change from experience, but im the same person, i like the same things, the same people. Im just externally correct, my disability cured, my defect repaired.
my identity?
I
AM
WOMAN
R

[Keira]

Fitting in, is a vague notion that probably
capture more of the spirit of what
transitioning well because of it is not precise.

We're whoever we want to be, and try to fit in
in the environment around us by projecting
whatever part of that internal part in
whichever way we choose.

Unlike passing, everybody, male and female,
need to fit in, its an ongoing process of
adjustment of your self to what's around it.
Sometimes, its impossible to fit in, or you
just don't want to, and you move on. Happens
to GG's and it happens to us.

So, yeah, I like fit in, better than passing, since
it better englobes the dynamic interelations of
everybody around and not just a small aspect of it (passing).

If you pass 95% and people are civil to you the rest of the time,
you do fit in and you probably live a very good life. Hourah for
the many (possibly most?) TS who do fit in in spite of not universally passing. By putting the emphasis on fitting in, it removes the negativity and uncertainty around who really passes and replaces it by something that a person can objectively assess if they are in tune with their surroundings.

Though, some are disconnected enough from their surrounding that this fitting may be built on quicksand. Hopefully "Janet" doesn't believe she's fitting in or she'll be devastated when she finds out the hypocrisy of some (and she'll eventually find out, no question, those things never stay under. They get out).

[katia]

"Can one live as their target gender without passing?"

let's just cut all the bs here, no you can't!

[Rachael]

bingo....
R

[Keira]

Katia.
There is a need to a certain degree of passing (whatever the definition), but it certainly doesn't need to be 100%.
Should you feel failure unless reaching a mythical 100% passing.
Or you could actually be living in your target gender with less.

What if 5% of women don't "pass" as women all the time.
Isn't it ridiculous to say they're not living in their target gender!!

The whole question is a bit ridiculous because passing
is self-defined and unknowable because of lack of
information (especially from random people).
So, we have to take our best shot and then just
live our lives as best we can.

[melissa90299]

OMG now we are getting into the old saw, "I am no longer trans argument." I am not even going there, well maybe, yeah it's kinda of a paradox, although I am not in denial about my trans history, I don't really think of myself as trans anything.

When I look back at my time before I enjoyed "cissexual privilege" virtually 24/7, life wasn't perfect but it was better than living a lie and trying to pretend I was a man. The thread should be titled Can one live as their "subconscious sex" without having "cissexual privilege."

Both terms are coined by Julia Serano, if you haven't read "Whipping Girl" Get off the damn forum and run to your nearest bookstore and buy it (and read it of course)

I hate these passing threads. 1) They gives the insecure woman the opening to brag about how well they think (or wish) that they "pass" 2) They promote the acceptance of the word pass. It is a really stupid and inaccurate term. It implies that we are trying to deceive people into thinking that we are something that we are not. It is also a term that is hard to define. For some, "passing" might mean the mythical state of mind that no one can possibly detect us or it to others, it might mean simply not hearing sir anymore. 

What we are really describing when we begin to "pass" very well is cissexual privilege meaning that people look at us as cissexual and we no longer carry the bagging of being thought of as trans, which to some means that we are ersatz women.

As Keira points out "passing" is self-defined where as "cissexual privilege" is much less so. You don't have to read everyone's mind who sees you to figure out whether or not you are receiving "cissexual privilge" and the term does not imply that no one can possibly detect me.

[SarahFaceDoom]

Fitting in, is a vague notion that probably
capture more of the spirit of what
transitioning well because of it is not precise.

We're whoever we want to be, and try to fit in
in the environment around us by projecting
whatever part of that internal part in
whichever way we choose.

Unlike passing, everybody, male and female,
need to fit in, its an ongoing process of
adjustment of your self to what's around it.
Sometimes, its impossible to fit in, or you
just don't want to, and you move on. Happens
to GG's and it happens to us.

So, yeah, I like fit in, better than passing, since
it better englobes the dynamic interelations of
everybody around and not just a small aspect of it (passing).

If you pass 95% and people are civil to you the rest of the time,
you do fit in and you probably live a very good life. Hourah for
the many (possibly most?) TS who do fit in in spite of not universally passing. By putting the emphasis on fitting in, it removes the negativity and uncertainty around who really passes and replaces it by something that a person can objectively assess if they are in tune with their surroundings.

Though, some are disconnected enough from their surrounding that this fitting may be built on quicksand. Hopefully "Janet" doesn't believe she's fitting in or she'll be devastated when she finds out the hypocrisy of some (and she'll eventually find out, no question, those things never stay under. They get out).

Brilliant!  About "Janet" who knows though?  She may not be liked at work, and she may realize that.  But maybe she has friends away from work that make the sacrifice at work workable.

Who knows if her problems at work are really all tied into being trans even.  She may just not be easy to get along with or like, and her being trans is what people latch onto.

But yeah.  Fitting in perfectly encapsulates the spirit of what I think really matters.  Everyone just needs a place in this world for themselves where they can be themselves, love, and be loved.  And I think that opportunity is out there for everyone regardless of how they look, trans or not.  You just have to be patient and kind, and when you find that situation embrace it and appreciate it.

I'm fortunate in that all through my transition process and even now, I haven't had to deal with a lot of the scorn and bigotry that so many of us do.  And now I've found myself with a good job, in a good city, surrounded by friends of all walks of life who I don't have to hide myself from.  Who love me to death and treat me instinctively the way I want to be treated.  I talk about my experiences as a woman who has transitioned pretty comfortably to my close friends.  It doesn't affect our relationship in any way, and I really only do it when it can help to illuminate their own lives.  There's a certain extent to where I've been blessed with a perspective few have, and to shut that away completely would be wrong, when there are things I can do to help with it.

It's sad to me that there seem to be so many of us who have to hide their stories just to be treated the way that they want to.  Just to fit in.  And I just hope that one day they are able to live freely and openly, because it would be a shame otherwise.

[Sheila]

I think that the sooner folks see the term "transsexual" as a temporay one the better off we will all be.  I've always felt, and believed with all my heart that that part of me which people refer to as being transsexual is but an expression of where I was.  I see transsexual as simply being the journey its self, nothing more.  I was, and always will be a woman but to satisfy societal requirements I needed to embark on a journey that culminated in a rebirth of sorts, a metamorphosis, similar to the butterfly which grows from a chrysalis to a splendid creature.  May be that's over stating the issue but I think it's important that "TS" see it as such.  We are not "TS" we are women (Men).

Steph


Steph,
  That is how I see the whole TS thing. I was a TS for a long time and now I'm not in transition anymore. I have the wrinkles to prove that I won the war.
Sheila

[melissa90299]

It's sad to me that there seem to be so many of us who have to hide their stories just to be treated the way that they want to.  Just to fit in.

What is sad is that we live in a culture in which the thread question even needs to be asked in the first place. It is sad that physical characteristics in so many ways determine whether or not we enjoy cissexual privilege. It is sad that women have to adopt the role of so-called stealth to achieve the privilege. Why can't people just see others as human beings or better yet, just living beings?

[SarahFaceDoom]

We are not "TS" we are women (Men).

Doesn't that imply that if you are "TS" you are not a man or a woman?

I don't really understand how one invalidates the other.  Rachel tried to explaining but all I got was something about soup bowls.  Isn't that just a goofy extension of the line of thinking that existed for many years about gays and lesbians?  That since they were homosexual they somehow invalidated their gender, when in fact you can be a man who is gay or a woman who is lesbian.  Just as you can be a man who is transgender or a woman who is trasngender.  Why does the fact that you transitioned invalidate the gender you have transitioned to?  That doesn't make any sense to me, and if I believed that, I don't think I would have transitioned in the first place.  To my eyes, it seems really clear that transgender is just as an aspect of a greater whole.  But it doesn't take anything away from you.  If anything it adds to you.  How many men or women can say they have dealt so intimately with issues of gender?  That's not something to hide away from the public.  It's not something people should be able to use to make you somehow less.  If anything it's an interesting sidestory to your life.

It's a denial I just don't really understand.  I understand WHY someone would make it.  I just don't understand the logic of how.  And I feel that the why of it may be slightly driven more by oppression than expression.

[Shana A]

The thread should be titled Can one live as their "subconscious sex" without having "cissexual privilege."

Both terms are coined by Julia Serano, if you haven't read "Whipping Girl" Get off the damn forum and run to your nearest bookstore and buy it (and read it of course)

I hate to say it Melissa, but I have the feeling that the people on this forum who most need to read this book aren't likely to do so before hell freezes over.

I'd like to see a world in which I don't have to "pass" as anything other than who I am, and to be able to live openly and safely as a male bodied person who has female, or other, subconscious sex/gender identity. That is the type of acceptance I need. That is what I'd like to see for our sister "Janet" as well. My question to my trans sisters and brothers here is, how are we going to achieve this world and who among us is willing to do the necessary work?

zythyra

[SarahFaceDoom]

It's sad to me that there seem to be so many of us who have to hide their stories just to be treated the way that they want to.  Just to fit in.

What is sad is that we live in a culture in which the thread question even needs to be asked in the first place. It is sad that physical characteristics in so many ways determine whether or not we enjoy cissexual privilege. It is sad that women have to adopt the role of so-called stealth to achieve the privilege. Why can't people just see others as human beings or better yet, just living beings?

And never mind the pain this culture wrecks on cisexual people just in terms of gender roles.  Women who have to pretend they are dumb to attract men.  Or men who have to appear tough to fit in with their group.  There should be more fluidity and if not that just plain understanding of the wide angle of variety out there in terms of gender expression.  We're so determined to shoehorn everyone into categories, we haven't stopped to ask why we do it, and if it's helpful anymore by this stage of are development as a species.  I would contend it's not.  The advances in culture have progressed to such an extent that traditional gender roles can be quite antiquated and there's a silent ebbing away of them now, that i can only hope continues to progress.

I mean can you imagine if as a kid you had felt free to tell your mom that you wanted to wear the pretty dress you saw at the department store.  And then if when you approached puberty you had been able to have the choice of HRT so that you could develop your body to correspond to your mind?  Moreso than in any other time in human history we have the opportunity to shape and advance ourselves, and we are pretty much just passing it by because of old scores of oppression and segregation.