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Can one live as their target gender without passing?

Started by Nero, December 05, 2007, 12:58:46 AM

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cindybc

Hi Rebis
Don't worry, I'll beat them over the head with my tin umbrella if they try to hurt you.

Cindy
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RebeccaFog

Replace the word "passing" with the word "acceptance" and you have a better conversation.


elbow room, I mean, see you around,


Rebis

Posted on: December 08, 2007, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 04:14:41 PM
Hi Rebis
Don't worry, I'll beat them over the head with my tin umbrella if they try to hurt you.

Cindy
Thank you, Cindy.  Please hit them hard.   :laugh:
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Rachael

Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 04:18:31 PM
Replace the word "passing" with the word "acceptance" and you have a better conversation.


being seen as your true gender, and being accepted as your true gender are two things....
those who are only seen as, or seen as thier true gender most of the time, are accepted defacto....
being accepted as your true gender requires openmindedness, not passing ability....
R :police:
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Nero

i'm under the weather so i'll keep this short and to the point.

the term 'passing' is used for clarity in this topic, nothing else. i agree it's not accurate either.

the term 'passing' for purposes of this topic means looking enough like your true gender to not hear the wrong titles and pronouns on a regular basis. not hearing 'ma'am' and 'she' if ftm and not hearing 'sir' and 'he' if mtf when dealing with complete strangers.

that's it. no more no less.

also, i don't see this as having anything to do with self-love, self-acceptance, or self-completeness.
the mythic narcissus would not be comfortable walking through life if he was constantly mistaken for and treated as something he was not.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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cindybc

Hi Rebis and Kate

Before I started full time I was considering moving out of my home town to TO 2 1/2 hrs from Midland. I was going to the TS support group back then. When I told them of my plan, surprisingly they were quite against it. They told me it would be better to stay in the town I was use to, the people I was familiar with and family. Where I knew all the facilities that I may need are located.

Well I did just that and it did turn out to be the best decision I ever could have made. I didn't loos my job and I never lost a friend, well any that did drift away eventually drifted back. After a couple of years I will, I will not delusion myself here. they knew what I was but it was no longer an issue and towards the last couple of years I lived there I never heard anyone address me as sir, Mr, him, he etc.

Family? well they are the most fickle to convince about anything and they disowned me, well that's their loss. I am not going to live a lie just to please them.

So I fit in quite well with people, always have as my previous self and my new self, well new 7 years ago. It was more  like becoming part of the team, with both men and women. That was the requirement of my job to start with and I did love my job.   
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Nero

also, for the purposes of this topic - what i really want to know - passing means not only not hearing the wrong titles and pronouns, but hear the RIGHT ones.
Passing means not being 'a whatzit' (i know that's crude, but that's what i mean)
passing means you can open your door to a plumber from a company you've never used before and be referred to as 'sir' if ftm or 'ma'am' if mtf.
that's what i mean by passing
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 04:47:54 PM
i'm under the weather so i'll keep this short and to the point.

the term 'passing' is used for clarity in this topic, nothing else. i agree it's not accurate either.

the term 'passing' for purposes of this topic means looking enough like your true gender to not hear the wrong titles and pronouns on a regular basis. not hearing 'ma'am' and 'she' if ftm and not hearing 'sir' and 'he' if mtf when dealing with complete strangers.

that's it. no more no less.

also, i don't see this as having anything to do with self-love, self-acceptance, or self-completeness.
the mythic narcissus would not be comfortable walking through life if he was constantly mistaken for and treated as something he was not.
I'm sorry.  I wasn't trying to mess with your intentions.  I just meant that if a 'non-passable' person were treated entirely with acceptance, they would find their life a lot easier.  I understand that not 'passing' would still hurt because the person would still have a discrepancy in their self image and the reality.
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Nero

Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:16:21 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 04:47:54 PM
i'm under the weather so i'll keep this short and to the point.

the term 'passing' is used for clarity in this topic, nothing else. i agree it's not accurate either.

the term 'passing' for purposes of this topic means looking enough like your true gender to not hear the wrong titles and pronouns on a regular basis. not hearing 'ma'am' and 'she' if ftm and not hearing 'sir' and 'he' if mtf when dealing with complete strangers.

that's it. no more no less.

also, i don't see this as having anything to do with self-love, self-acceptance, or self-completeness.
the mythic narcissus would not be comfortable walking through life if he was constantly mistaken for and treated as something he was not.
I'm sorry.  I wasn't trying to mess with your intentions.  I just meant that if a 'non-passable' person were treated entirely with acceptance, they would find their life a lot easier.  I understand that not 'passing' would still hurt because the person would still have a discrepancy in their self image and the reality.

oh my dear reebs, no apologies sweetheart. i wasn't offended in the least by anything anyone has said here.
i guess sometimes i come across as rather short, and i don't mean to.

i just mean - i do not pass. i hear 'ma'am' everywhere i go. im comfortable with my identity. i love who i am. but i am not living as a man because i do not look like one. that's it. that's all.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Kate

Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 05:13:48 PM
passing means you can open your door to a plumber from a company you've never used before and be referred to as 'sir' if ftm or 'ma'am' if mtf.

Ah, well then I dunno...

If strangers were constantly "sirring" me, then my experience would conflict with who I am, so I wouldn't be "living as my target gender" according to my needs. I'd KNOW my truth, but I wouldn't be LIVING it. At least not socially.

My point was that it's possible for me to open that door, have the plumber realize I was born male, and STILL hear "miss" and be treated with respect as Kate.

~Kate~
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Keira


Kate, I think its just that everybody here defines "living", "passing", "gender" and "target" differently. Kinda hard to get an agreement.
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Shana A

Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 04:13:53 PM
I agree with you both, except that I resent Z trying to eat my squid-child.

     Living as your true gender works whether you 'pass' or not when you live in an accepting society.
     I know people will tell me that we don't live in such a society, but that is because the work is currently under way to make it one.  The effort has really only just begun.    If you can't believe that there will be a day when people will be better, if not perfectly, accepted as their true gender without having to 'pass', then you are probably doing nothing to help make it so.  I'm not talking activism.  Just faith and a belief that attitudes the way they are now can be changed and people in general can grow.

Sorry about your squid-child Rebis. I only ate a few bites though, I do believe their limbs grow back, soon the squid will be good as new  ;)

I believe that society is changing. I'm sometimes amazed at the inroads we've made in just the last couple of years. Someday, I hope in my lifetime, people will be able to be accepted as their true genders, whatever it may/or may not be. Whether or not it happens, I'm trying to do everything I can towards that goal, no matter how small it might seem.

y2g
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Keira on December 08, 2007, 05:35:14 PM

Kate, I think its just that everybody here defines "living", "passing", "gender" and "target" differently. Kinda hard to get an agreement.

Then I think it's time for us to draw up a definitive disagreement.   :)
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Shana A

Quote from: Rachael on December 08, 2007, 03:30:55 PM
Im all for greater acceptance, but dont ask me to out myself to help a cause...
those who know me, know what i do for my university's lgbt committee behind the scenes...  greater diversity? fine, just not at the expense of my normality ta ;)
R :police:

No need to out yourself if you don't want to. It's great that you're doing things behind the scenes. Every little bit that all of us do helps make a difference.

y2g
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Nero

Quote from: Kate on December 08, 2007, 05:28:21 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 05:13:48 PM
passing means you can open your door to a plumber from a company you've never used before and be referred to as 'sir' if ftm or 'ma'am' if mtf.

Ah, well then I dunno...

If strangers were constantly "sirring" me, then my experience would conflict with who I am, so I wouldn't be "living as my target gender" according to my needs. I'd KNOW my truth, but I wouldn't be LIVING it. At least not socially.

My point was that it's possible for me to open that door, have the plumber realize I was born male, and STILL hear "miss" and be treated with respect as Kate.

~Kate~

well that is different. one thing is - how can we ever know if one has read us and still treating us as who we are or not?
personally, i would be happy with such. i would'nt care if everyone knew i was born female if i was still treated and respected as a man.
but i'm not a man in peoples' eyes. i'm a big butch woman.

also. just a note. i really appreciate the discussion here. i agree with a lot of points made. i like for topics to sprout other topics and issues. such is real conversation. so continue. i am enjoying reading all this. i just wanted to clarify my use of the word passing and the orginal question.
so go on. i do not know when of if i will ever be able to pass, so any discussion on the subject is valuable to me.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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cindybc

Hi Nero
I'm a big butch woman. "That's my mommy!" She left me at a truck stop when I was jest a we baby.

Just kidin, Wing Walker calls herself the diesel dyke.  ;D

Cindy
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Shana A

Quote from: Nero on December 08, 2007, 05:42:31 PM
well that is different. one thing is - how can we ever know if one has read us and still treating us as who we are or not?
personally, i would be happy with such. i would'nt care if everyone knew i was born female if i was still treated and respected as a man.
but i'm not a man in peoples' eyes. i'm a big butch woman.

also. just a note. i really appreciate the discussion here. i agree with a lot of points made. i like for topics to sprout other topics and issues. such is real conversation. so continue. i am enjoying reading all this. i just wanted to clarify my use of the word passing and the orginal question.
so go on. i do not know when of if i will ever be able to pass, so any discussion on the subject is valuable to me.


Thanks for bringing up these topics Nero. This one has particular resonance to my situation, which in some ways parallels yours.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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melissa90299

I think it is easier for an FtM to live without cissexual privilege than a MtF. Men do not get scrutinized like we do and homophobic men, the bane to the existence of the poorly presenting MtF, could give a rot less than about whether or not an FtM looks like a man or a butch woman.

I see FtMs getting most of their support from the lesbian community. That kind of support does not exist for MtFs. Gay men tolerate trans women but do not understand us. They think that we are "changing our sex" to make it easier to get men. I don't know how many gay men i have met who don't get the fact that a trans woman would be a lesbian. So other than than the fact that it would be very frustrating to always here ma'am when you want to hear Sir, I think it wouldn't be devastating to deal with.
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Wing Walker

Quote from: cindybc on December 08, 2007, 05:54:52 PM
Hi Nero
I'm a big butch woman. "That's my mommy!" She left me at a truck stop when I was jest a we baby.

Just kidin, Wing Walker calls herself the diesel dyke.  ;D

Cindy

I love taking my car for service.  Generally I have found honest shops but I have fun with those who are less than honest.

When a service advisor gives me a diagnosis and estimate that are just plain horsefeathers I ask them if they are telling me so because I am a woman, a blonde, or both? 

After I let them sputter and stutter a bit I tell them that I am a "diesel dyke" and that I know how my car works, so don't give me a bunch of stuff.

That routine totally disarms them and then I ask for the service manager, ready to do it all over again.

I am not a small woman so I don't mind using the dyke identification.

Wing Walker
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Nero

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 08, 2007, 05:59:05 PM
I think it is easier for an FtM to live without cissexual privilege than a MtF. Men do not get scrutinized like we do and homophobic men, the bane to the existence of the poorly presenting MtF, could give a rot less than about whether or not an FtM looks like a man or a butch woman.

I see FtMs getting most of their support from the lesbian community. That kind of support does not exist for MtFs. Gay men tolerate trans women but do not understand us. They think that we are "changing our sex" to make it easier to get men. I don't know how many gay men i have met who don't get the fact that a trans woman would be a lesbian. So other than than the fact that it would be very frustrating to always here ma'am when you want to hear Sir, I think it wouldn't be devastating to deal with.

it's easier in terms of the fact that the vast majority of transphobic discrimination and violence is perpetrated against transwomen.
i don't know about others, but the fact i am seen as a woman instead of a man is devastating for me. i have nothing at all against the queer community, but i am tired of the 'dyke' stares and comments. i don't like going out with a woman and being seen as her lesbian lover.
i am not a dyke. i am not a butch. i am not a woman period.

the experiences of transmen and transwomen are different. one does not have it better or easier than another.

unpassable transwoman (those who don't look like women, for those who dislike the term 'passable') are more likely to face transphobia.

unpassable transmen have no way of declaring their manhood other than vocalizing to people that they are male. there is nothing an unpassable transman can do to make it clear they are presenting as male.

testesterone takes a more savage toll on a woman than estrogen on a man. thus, many of the effects of testosterone on transwomen cannot be rectified and are hard to overcome.

transmen do not have the option of truly fixing their bodies. the options available leave a guy with poor results. even the best outcome (meta) leaves a guy looking abnormal down there at best.
i've come to terms with my genitals, but this still remains a great source of pain for many transman. even if other men sharing the locker room have no clue he's trans, there will still be stares and maybe questions. he will never look like a normal man down below.
imagine your only surgical option being an obviously malformed vagina.
most transwomen need SRS to be whole. but transmen's genital surgery does not leave one whole.
the lack of a penis is a great source of pain and dysphoria for many transmen. how could it not be? when all of society says manhood equals a penis?
sexism cuts both ways. feminine men are demonized, imagine how a man without a dick feels.


i used to think transwomen were luckier. i thought there could be no more degrading position than to be a man born female. then i realized it was beyond arrogant of me to assume my hardships were greater than anyone else's.
a really tacky cliche, but true: the grass is always greener on the other side.

and none of this is to discount the world-wide violence against transwomen, which troubles me greatly.

Posted on: December 08, 2007, 08:14:25 PM
One more thing i'd like to point out (and this is not specifically directed at you melissa or anyone here).

Transmen are not necessarily strangers to violent crime. I may not have experienced transphobic violence, but i know what it is to rely on your wits to get out of rape and possible murder. i know what it is to targeted for robbery because of appearing to be female.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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katia

thanks for the clarification about the "passing" term nero ;) it shouldn't be such a nightmare to figure out what it implies >sigh<
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