Can one live as their target gender without passing?

[SarahFaceDoom]

i'm under the weather so i'll keep this short and to the point.

the term 'passing' is used for clarity in this topic, nothing else. i agree it's not accurate either.

the term 'passing' for purposes of this topic means looking enough like your true gender to not hear the wrong titles and pronouns on a regular basis. not hearing 'ma'am' and 'she' if ftm and not hearing 'sir' and 'he' if mtf when dealing with complete strangers.

that's it. no more no less.

also, i don't see this as having anything to do with self-love, self-acceptance, or self-completeness.
the mythic narcissus would not be comfortable walking through life if he was constantly mistaken for and treated as something he was not.

That's not passing then, that's acceptance.  And yes it is hard to live any kind of life without some level of acceptance by those around you.  We are social creatures and we crave community, and if you are unable to get that, it can be very painful and be very difficult to live your life irrespective of even gender issues.  Passing is an action not a goal.  Acceptance however is a goal.  Acceptance from others and acceptance from within.  Those are the hurdles that are there for our community and many others.

I hope eventually you are able to get the acceptance you want Nero. 

[Hypatia]

And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.

And yet somehow many brave and doughty female-bodied warriors and sailors of history who went to war and passed as men managed to do it without HRT.

She went into a tailor shop
And dressed in men's array
And stepped on board a vessel
To convey herself away
Oh to convey herself away

Before you step on board, sir
Your name I'd like to know
She smiled all in her countenance
They call me Jackaroe
Oh they call me Jackaroe

Your waist is light and slender
Your fingers are neat and small
Your cheeks too red and rosy
To face the cannonball
Oh to face the cannonball

I know my waist is slender
My fingers neat and small
But it would not make me tremble
To see ten thousand fall
Oh to see ten thousand fall

--from the song "Jackaroe" (Trad.)

[Valentina]

Passing isn't a requirement to live in one's target gender.  Passing is sometimes required to gain the acceptance of peeps in society.  What peeps? those that use violence and hate against trans peeps that dont fullfill society's stereotypes.

[Nero]

And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.

And yet somehow many brave and doughty female-bodied warriors and sailors of history who went to war and passed as men managed to do it without HRT.

She went into a tailor shop
And dressed in men's array
And stepped on board a vessel
To convey herself away
Oh to convey herself away

Before you step on board, sir
Your name I'd like to know
She smiled all in her countenance
They call me Jackaroe
Oh they call me Jackaroe

Your waist is light and slender
Your fingers are neat and small
Your cheeks too red and rosy
To face the cannonball
Oh to face the cannonball

I know my waist is slender
My fingers neat and small
But it would not make me tremble
To see ten thousand fall
Oh to see ten thousand fall

--from the song "Jackaroe" (Trad.)

things were different back then. women had a dress code. women wore dresses. nowadays it's very hard to pass as men because of the freedom of dress and expresion women have. it's not a bad thing, but it sill makes it hard for us. we just look like butches in this day and age. trust me, i've done all i can. without hrt, i just look like a butch female.

[RebeccaFog]

And honestly - most transmen who 'claim' to pass without hrt are passing as 12 year olds.
I don't know about transwomen, but any transman who truly passes as a MAN and not a little kid without HRT must be IS of some sort.

And yet somehow many brave and doughty female-bodied warriors and sailors of history who went to war and passed as men managed to do it without HRT.

She went into a tailor shop
And dressed in men's array
And stepped ...

Your name I'd like to know
She smiled all in her countenance
They call me Jackaroe
Oh they call me Jackaroe
...
--from the song "Jackaroe" (Trad.)

things were different back then. women had a dress code. women wore dresses. nowadays it's very hard to pass as men because of the freedom of dress and expresion women have. it's not a bad thing, but it sill makes it hard for us. we just look like butches in this day and age. trust me, i've done all i can. without hrt, i just look like a butch female.

Plus people didn't need birth certificates, driver's licenses, and that slop.

also, note that the singer of the song uses "she" rather than "he" I'm sure those men felt miserable whenever they were referred to like that.

I'm not knocking the song.  I guess I'm saying it is hard to truly peg some of these issues.

[cindybc]

Your OK hon, just follow me. Just watch your step, I wouldn't want to have to go fetch you in that dusty old  gulch.

Cindy

[Butterfly]

Maybe.  I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though.  Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman .  It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense.  Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery.  Worth it?  darn right it is!

[Berliegh]

Maybe.  I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though.  Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman .  It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense.  Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery.  Worth it?  darn right it is!

You look very fem in your photo (a bit like Shania Twain) , so I wouldn't worry too much..

[Jeannette]

I guess but not everybody succeeds.

[Shana A]

Maybe.  I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though.  Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman .  It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense.  Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery.  Worth it?  darn right it is!

Butterfly, I find it hard to believe that you ever looked like a man! 

y2g

[Veronica Secret]

Maybe.  I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though.  Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman .  It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense.  Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery.  Worth it?  darn right it is!

Butterfly, I find it hard to believe that you ever looked like a man! 

y2g

Funny you mentioned that. Those who have strong masculine features pre FFS wind up "passable" afterwards but not beautiful.

[cindybc]

Hey if I looked like Butterfly and Jeannette I would be a movie star and have my mug on all the magazines in the country, including The National Enquierer. "hee, hee, hee."

But then I've grown kind of fond of the old bat Cindy

[Suzy]

Hey if I looked like Butterfly and Jeannette I would be a movie star and have my mug on all the magazines in the country, including The National Enquierer. "hee, hee, hee."

But then I've grown kind of fond of the old bat Cindy

Yes, some of us can only wish.  But what is so awesome about you, Cindy, is how well you accept yourself and enjoy life!

[cindybc]

Thank you, thank you Cindy says as she still holds the mic and steps out from behind the podium. She wore a floor length white gown with all those little sparklies. She cautiously takes a bow, first to the right then to the left. And the crowd goes wild screaming and whistling and crankin up the noise makers. and throwing their hats and other odd and ends of who knows what into the air and, oh my gosh,  multi colored balloons released to float up to the ceiling. 

Ah what a wonderful standing ovation huh? Well can't help it I am a dreamer with a optimistic view on things. Like Wing Walker says. If a farmer told here there was a hossy under that pile of horse manure she would dig to the bottom bare hands looking for the pony.

Cindy

[deniz]

[NO ONE WILL EVER ACCEPT YOU AS A FEMALE IF THEY KNOW YOU  HAD ONCE BEEN MALE.
example.I dated the most handsome boy at my college.He did not know about my ''secret''/He thought i was f.We dined out several times. He was trying to have sex or even better have a relationship with me.Her was really attracted.During our last dinner i told him about me/He told me.Thanks DUDE. i am not gay

example 2.People from my past will never say i look like a woman.But 100% of people i meet nowdays call me miss and i like making out with boys in clubs etc as a woman(just making out because sex is not an option since i go stealth and i am pre op.Am i crazy?Are my old friends just negative?NO........IT ;S JUST HOW PEOPLE BRAIN FUCTION......once a boy always a boy in their eyes..... (if the know you were boy:).

[Rachael]

some do accept....
relationships are harder....
i got that from a guy i dated... 'ugh you have a penis' and left forever
R

[deniz]

wasn;t it dreadful? i hate that feeling.but i keep on pushing my self to the edges being stealth in romantic relationships.

[Rachael]

im stealth at work... id just break it off if i got with someone... i cant risk em telling everyone :S
R

[tinkerbell]

Maybe.  I wasnt one of those lucky peeps though.  Peeps always saw a man in a dress pretending to be a woman .  It wasnt until after my FFS that everything started to make sense.  Life makes sense now but it has cost me money, pain and many months of recovery.  Worth it?  darn right it is!

Butterfly, I find it hard to believe that you ever looked like a man! 

y2g

Funny you mentioned that. Those who have strong masculine features pre FFS wind up "passable" afterwards but not beautiful.

I have to disagree with that.  If you look at this woman's pre and post FFS pictures, you will see why.  Incidentally, Elizabeth (the woman from the photographs is a Dr. O graduate)

http://community.webshots.com/album/87429930qRQZoD/2

tink

[Keira]

Elizabeth is very beautiful on the front shot post FFS, but I'm not so enthousiastic about profile and quarter shots, still looks very nice, but not in same ballpark as frontal.

But, It depends mostly on what was the strong masculine feature pre-ffs.
The most difficult thing to fix is jaw and chin height, width is much easier. In her
case, broad jaw, not very high chin and jaw. That means the upper lip area remains
proportional, which will not be the case no matter the op if you've got a jaw that's high
vertically.

The eye area, and cranium width is the most impossible area to change and if its not OK, you won't
look good no matter the op.  Most good looking post FFS, have high cheekbones and a wide cranium, that gives an oval face. If you've got a narrow head, even shortening the chin will leave you with a long face. Another thing that's important to beauty, a high vertical forehead, many men have short forehead that slopes heavily backwards, this is impossible to fix even with FFS. With a forehead that',s 1/3 facial height, you've got perfect proportions. Eyes with one eye distance in between and one eye distance from side of head is ideal, this takes a wide cheekbone to accomplish.

Anyway, strong male traits are present in many models, and it doesn't stop them from being considered very beautiful, beauty is not just about male and female. That's why I find many TS are in fact beautiful including many here :-).