Is there a greater prejudice, agression and fear against MTF versus FTM?

[warlockmaker]

I read all the time about the prejudices and agression towards TG Mtf but not so with Ftm. I have been thinking to myself why this is so? I kinda have a feeling its all about agression that men have in general and their homophobic fears. MtF look for men or females and mens homophobic fears brings out the hate. You become a competitor for females and a nightmare mistake for paranoid prejudiced cis males. FtM go for females or gay men dont upset the homophobic males. Maybe too simplistic and a view from someone who only reads about this issues in other countries. Would live to hear more about this.

[Dayta]

I definitely think that's part of it.  I speculate that the bathroom thing is something else, though.  I think that cis-males think about being in the Ladies' Room, and fantasize about the naked women running around (you know, like they do in the Ladies' Room), and get jealous of the MtF women in there, and maybe scared they're all crazed sex maniacs too. 

Erin

[jeipea]

In my country 🇰 🇪
I have not heard of or met any FtM.
I would speculate that since women's rights are not "there yet" it is hard for any cis-woman to even begin to contemplate being transgender.

For MtF generally grown up as privileged males and are a bit stronger to take on society. Generally if you are MtF you can't help but be a Feminist there is so much imbalance.

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[arice]

I think that FTMs are largely invisible to society at large and that is a large part of why there is generally less violence towards us. Part of that invisibility is due to how we are perceived before we pass.  An FTM who fails to pass (pre HRT or surgery) is seen as a masculine woman. At this point in history, most societies are tolerant of masculine women. MTF who do not pass, however, still stand out because society does not readily accept "men" breaking gender norms. Then there is the issue of passability. Most FTMs will pass with T and top surgery while many MTFs will not pass even after HRT and multiple surgeries. These two issues coupled with the apparent higher incidence of MTF trans people contribute to the invisibility of FTMs.
It is also true that we are perceived as less threatening to homophobic and sexist cis men. We still challenge the patriarchy but in a way that the patriarchy can understand.

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[SadieBlake]

What arice said, I would add a couple of points.

Because ftm men were effectively invisible, there's a well documented history of those who simply passed and chose to live their lives as male.

The earliest TERF arguments dating to the '70s included the assertion that MTF must not be a "real" phenomenon because if it were then there would also be ftm people. Of course effectively invisible or hiding in plain sight isn't the same as non existent. My sister happened that be "educated" in feminism in this era which explained her extremely negative reaction to me when I came out to her many years ago.

That argument was pretty well refuted when much of the butch lesbian community of the Pacific Northwest transitioned in the space of a few years. Of course the TERF proponents within the women's movement were relatively welcoming of ftm men because they'd been acquaintances, members of the same community. Also I don't see this as a bad thing, even though there was a whole decade in which I wasn't permitted access to lesbian spaces while ftms were. I get that a logical inconsistency can be accepted when we're talking about existing relationship and trust vs forming new trust.

I'm glad to say that I am accepted by those same women today. It's a privilege I don't take lightly.

[Julia1996]

I think one reason guys have more prejudice toward transwomen is because most guys love being guys and think it's the best thing ever. They can't imagine why anyone would ever give that up. My grandpa asked me more than once why I would ever want to be female. He said he could understand if it was the other way around.  He meant if I was FtM.  Also for cis guys the thought of losing their penis is the ultimate nightmare. Usually they would prefer to loose a limb. The idea that someone would willingly submit to a penectomy totally creeps them out and because of that we creep them out. When I first transitioned the thought of surgery bothered my brother a lot. Since then he has decided it's what I need to do but at first it really bothered him. He kept asking if I was sure I really wanted to do that and that once I did I could never go back. He even told me he had had a bad dream in which I had had surgery and then decided it was a big mistake but it was too late and he didn't how to ever comfort me about it.  As silly as that seemed to me at the time it tells me a lot about how guys think.
I think guys have less of a problem with transguys because again they think who WOULDN'T want to be a guy.
In the beginning before Tyler actually knew anything about SRS procedures he said transguys were lucky because they could have a dick as big as they wanted. After I explained to him how FtM SRS surgery actually worked and that most transguys didn't have even an average sized penis after SRS, he felt genuinely bad for transguys but he said something small was still better than nothing.

I think some women also think being a guy is a wonderful thing and can't understand why anyone would give it up. The don't want to be guys but at the same time they are jealous of the social status and male privilege men have. My mom is that way and that has a lot to do with her not accepting me.  She's toled me more than once that I'm stupid and a complete idiot for transitioning.

It all comes down to the fact that unless someone is actually trans, they can't ever understand the need and drive to transition.

[Elis]

Julia- don't want to derail the thread but ftm guys as far as I know can get an average sized penis from phalloplasty. Maybe you're thinking of metoidioplasty where the surgeon uses the skin ftms already have down there?

[Charlie Nicki]

We live in a misogynistic society and culture where all things feminine are considered as something less, which is why women who look masculine are accepted and fly under the radar but how many cis men do you see wearing skirts and long hair? I think this extends to trans people and then adding the fact that FTMs pass way better than MTFs, it's probably easier for them to go unnoticed.


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[Lady Sarah]

Having been androgynous, and called effeminate prior to transitioning, I feel the hate and intolerance goes back to values people were taught by their parents and peers when they were young. That hate and intolerance did not go away until after several years of transition. This is the primary reason I do not go around telling anyone I have ever been anything other than a woman.
I have had more than my share of victimization. Others have had the same. This is likely the reason that many post ops go into hiding by going stealth. Society as a whole has a long way to go with accepting trans people into normal society.

[Sarah_P]

I've been thinking about this lately, but couldn't ever put the right words to it. Everyone here has pretty much covered everything I was thinking. Guys love being guys, and can't fathom anyone 'betraying' that fraternity.
What made me start thinking about this, is that here, in my little intolerant town, there's an FTM man that seems to have no problems whatsoever. Actually, if it weren't for the fact that he's a friend of a girl friend, I might not have known, so maybe the general populace just doesn't know.

[arice]

I think one reason guys have more prejudice toward transwomen is because most guys love being guys and think it's the best thing ever. They can't imagine why anyone would ever give that up. My grandpa asked me more than once why I would ever want to be female. He said he could understand if it was the other way around.  He meant if I was FtM.  Also for cis guys the thought of losing their penis is the ultimate nightmare. Usually they would prefer to loose a limb. The idea that someone would willingly submit to a penectomy totally creeps them out and because of that we creep them out. When I first transitioned the thought of surgery bothered my brother a lot. Since then he has decided it's what I need to do but at first it really bothered him. He kept asking if I was sure I really wanted to do that and that once I did I could never go back. He even told me he had had a bad dream in which I had had surgery and then decided it was a big mistake but it was too late and he didn't how to ever comfort me about it.  As silly as that seemed to me at the time it tells me a lot about how guys think.
I think guys have less of a problem with transguys because again they think who WOULDN'T want to be a guy.
In the beginning before Tyler actually knew anything about SRS procedures he said transguys were lucky because they could have a dick as big as they wanted. After I explained to him how FtM SRS surgery actually worked and that most transguys didn't have even an average sized penis after SRS, he felt genuinely bad for transguys but he said something small was still better than nothing.

I think some women also think being a guy is a wonderful thing and can't understand why anyone would give it up. The don't want to be guys but at the same time they are jealous of the social status and male privilege men have. My mom is that way and that has a lot to do with her not accepting me.  She's toled me more than once that I'm stupid and a complete idiot for transitioning.

It all comes down to the fact that unless someone is actually trans, they can't ever understand the need and drive to transition.

I think you are absolutely right. Honestly, the "who wouldn't want to be a guy" mentality stopped me from really acknowledging my transness for a long time.  I didn't realize that cis women don't question their gender. I actually thought that being a woman was just something that you learned to accept with varying degrees of success... I was just really bad at it. Then I had my daughter, who is a girl. It wasn't something she had to learn to deal with or that she was unhappy about... mind blown.

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[warlockmaker]

In Asia a FtM is no big deal. We see females in men clothing and we dont bat an eye. In some places if you are a MtF and the only son then its an issue for the family.  Even in Thailand if you are the only cis male you must fufill your family obligations and have children. I know my close group of alpha male  friends feel I have betrayed them.Age also affects acceptance and as I transitioned late in life, after fufilling my family obligations I had little resistance.

[Tommie_9]

Absolutely, to more aggression. Prejudice seems about the same. I don't want to diminish the prejudice FtM's experience, but being MtF is dangerous. You can get beat up for it, and it's MtF persons getting murdered. There have been two MtF murders in my area the last 18 months. Safety is my biggest concern as MtF, so I'm extra careful about where I go and it's mostly during daylight hours. My brother who is very supportive told me his biggest concern was for my safety.

Men don't even like more feminine looking men even if not MtF. I was called ->-bleeped-<-, pus_y and queer in high school, because puberty was delayed for me and I looked girlish. One guy told a group of guys as I walked by that he "would f_ck me if I had a pus_y", quote. The worst and most depressed years of my life. My therapist said experiencing this early-in-life aggression gave me coping skills and conditioning for being MtF. So, there's that.

[Julia1996]

Absolutely, to more aggression. Prejudice seems about the same. I don't want to diminish the prejudice FtM's experience, but being MtF is dangerous. You can get beat up for it, and it's MtF persons getting murdered. There have been two MtF murders in my area the last 18 months. Safety is my biggest concern as MtF, so I'm extra careful about where I go and it's mostly during daylight hours. My brother who is very supportive told me his biggest concern was for my safety.

Men don't even like more feminine looking men even if not MtF. I was called ->-bleeped-<-, pus_y and queer in high school, because puberty was delayed for me and I looked girlish. One guy told a group of guys as I walked by that he "would f_ck me if I had a pus_y", quote. The worst and most depressed years of my life. My therapist said experiencing this early-in-life aggression gave me coping skills and conditioning for being MtF. So, there's that.

That type of male behavior has always astonished me. The guy said he wanted to ## you but you're the ->-bleeped-<-!  During my last year of high school I had a guy grab me and kiss me right on the mouth right in a crowded hallway. Everyone laughed and I had guys give me a hateful look and tell me I was such a little ->-bleeped-<-. ME??? That ->-bleeped-<- kissed ME! But I'm the ->-bleeped-<-! Sometimes I hate guys.

[itsApril]

It's true that MTFs face more overt discrimination and hostility than FTMs.  Probably because MTFs are more visible.  In modern American society, cis women have a wider degree of latitude in dress and presentation than cis men do.

A hundred years ago most people considered it shocking to see a woman wearing anything but skirts and dresses.  Famous aviator Amelia Earhart was considered as daring and flamboyant in the 1930s for routinely wearing pants as she was for her very dangerous (ultimately fatal, regrettably!) long distance flying exploits.

Today, there are lots of cis women who never wear skirts or dresses, may not use makeup, have short hair, etc.  So in the initial stages of transition, a lot of transmen don't appear that far out of the cis norm.

If you look at the numbers of transpeople who are targets of transphobic violence, I think it's pretty clear that MTFs are more likely to be targeted.  But nobody should think that FTMs can't face violent, even homicidal attacks.

One case I remember vividly happened when I was about 11 or 12.  I read about it in the newspaper and it really caught my attention, even though I was pretty clueless then and didn't understand what it meant or why it had such an impact on me.  A young trans man, Brandon Teena, was beaten, raped, and murdered by his lowlife "friends" when they discovered he was trans.  It all happened in a small town in Nebraska, and I couldn't stop thinking about how awful it must have been for him to be isolated in a small town and trying to live the way he wanted in a society that couldn't accept him.

It's worth taking a look at what happened in the case.  Here's a link to a short summary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Teena

The event was made into well-received movie, "Boys Don't Cry," which I saw when I was about 18 and my feelings about gender identity were really starting to take shape.  The movie brought back all the creepy feelings I remembered from when I first read the bare-bones news accounts in the newspaper as a kid.

[Kylo]

I read all the time about the prejudices and agression towards TG Mtf but not so with Ftm. I have been thinking to myself why this is so? I kinda have a feeling its all about agression that men have in general and their homophobic fears. MtF look for men or females and mens homophobic fears brings out the hate. You become a competitor for females and a nightmare mistake for paranoid prejudiced cis males. FtM go for females or gay men dont upset the homophobic males. Maybe too simplistic and a view from someone who only reads about this issues in other countries. Would live to hear more about this.

In terms of basic observation, all people seem disposed at first to view FTM as women and MTF as men who are "play-acting". For this reason, it's not surprising they would treat MTF more harshly than they do FTM - and by that I mean men and women alike treat men more harshly in society than they do women. An MTF is more likely to be considered a "disgrace" by people, or something equally harsh, than an FTM is to be considered "a confused girl" and looked at as someone who will grow out of it. Unfortunately that's just the wiring of people in general. We're built to protect what we think is female more than we will what we see as male. It's how human society became so efficient, I suppose.

And because many will see an MTF as a man still, they'll probably treat that person as if they are one, to the same sort of severity and standard. Hence how FTM often fly under the radar or avoid being physically attacked as often. It does happen, but is comparatively rarer according to the stats.

[josie76]

I'll add my two pennies,

Yes, there is more aggression toward MTF than FTM.

Seems if looking at cis women, they do not feel threatened by FTM and I have found that except for religious extremists, that women are generally very accepting of trans women. Most situations women have immediately changed their demeanor towards me once they figure out what I am. Cis women drop their guard and begin interacting with me like they would any other woman. Very openly with increased eye contact and both verbal and gesture inflection. I have seen this everywhere from the store checkout, drive through at fast food, and doctor visits even if it was for one of my kids where none of my medical information would provide them hints. My demeanor must show through quite fully at least to women who seem much more observant than men do.

From my lifetime of experience living hidden among the men's culture, there is something very different there. The majority of cis men, even if verbally accepting of gay men, tend to keep some fear inspired distance from the gay community. They have this "whatever makes those people happy" idea, but seem to mentally seperate themselves being manly men from "those people". It is a Christian based culture of homophobia. I grew up where being called gay was a put down much like being called a girl but slightly more insulting. I learned in first grade that not acting like a boy, meant being ostracized and bullied, more than the common bulling. So I did what was needed. Copied most everything the boys did. I saw them continue to make fun of each other if one even slightly showed emotion or anything that could be considered feminine/girly in word or deed. So yes there is a great deal of aggression that many cis men continue to show towards the trans woman as they see them as someone deviating from their perceived norm of manhood. For many, even if they mentally can say they are accepting, they still have this deeply ingrained concept of bulling other perceived boys into their social norm. So they have this uneasy feeling around trans women. They still see the trans woman as a man. This can turn to violence if the man is predisposed to it. I think this is much reduced as society becomes less tolerant of violence than it once was.

The FTM, I think is seen first as a butch woman by cis men. Later he passes right along and is not seen as anything but another guy. In our culture I do believe it is far easier for a FTM to successfully transition without the negative aggression toward them for being themselves.



I see men reacting with some level of unease or disgust when one sees me now. I can't hide my breasts under a large tee shirt or really very well under layers anymore. I'm in the in between stages and may stay not quite passable until I get to the point of some plastic surgery work. I see them take one glance and look away to the ground or anywhere but my direction. Like I said above, women tend to pay me no mind or will openly interact with me.

[Amoré]

I think one reason guys have more prejudice toward transwomen is because most guys love being guys and think it's the best thing ever. They can't imagine why anyone would ever give that up. My grandpa asked me more than once why I would ever want to be female. He said he could understand if it was the other way around.  He meant if I was FtM.  Also for cis guys the thought of losing their penis is the ultimate nightmare. Usually they would prefer to loose a limb. The idea that someone would willingly submit to a penectomy totally creeps them out and because of that we creep them out. When I first transitioned the thought of surgery bothered my brother a lot. Since then he has decided it's what I need to do but at first it really bothered him. He kept asking if I was sure I really wanted to do that and that once I did I could never go back. He even told me he had had a bad dream in which I had had surgery and then decided it was a big mistake but it was too late and he didn't how to ever comfort me about it.  As silly as that seemed to me at the time it tells me a lot about how guys think.
I think guys have less of a problem with transguys because again they think who WOULDN'T want to be a guy.
In the beginning before Tyler actually knew anything about SRS procedures he said transguys were lucky because they could have a dick as big as they wanted. After I explained to him how FtM SRS surgery actually worked and that most transguys didn't have even an average sized penis after SRS, he felt genuinely bad for transguys but he said something small was still better than nothing.

I think some women also think being a guy is a wonderful thing and can't understand why anyone would give it up. The don't want to be guys but at the same time they are jealous of the social status and male privilege men have. My mom is that way and that has a lot to do with her not accepting me.  She's toled me more than once that I'm stupid and a complete idiot for transitioning.

It all comes down to the fact that unless someone is actually trans, they can't ever understand the need and drive to transition.

Hit the nail on the head. I think CIS guy's also fear that whatever happened to us to make us become woman can happen to them.

[MaryT]

Is it really true that MTFs face more prejudice than FTMs?  According to

The Incidence and Prevalence of SRS among US Residents by Mary Ann Horton PhD,

the ratio of MTFs to FTMs having primary SRS is 1.75 to 1 in the US.  If a similar ratio can be extrapolated to the trans people who have not had SRS, there are far more MTFs rhan FTMs.  That could account for a much larger NUMBER of incidents of prejudice or violence against MTFs.

[MaryT]

Horton goes on to write

"The inherent prevalence of transsexualism (including those who are not diagnosed) is estimated as 1:1000 (1:750 MTF and 1:1400 FTM.",

i.e. MTF transsexualism is about twice as prevalent as FTM transsexualism.  I know that transsexualism is not quite the same as ->-bleeped-<-, but ...