Male socialization or inherent male traits and thinking?

[Nero]

there are enough transpeople who literally cant cope/function as thier raised sex to prove its simply not ALL learned or chemical...
R

yep. that was me. i just had too many problems as a child. i COULDN'T assimilate, blend in, or whatever you want to call it. and not for lack of trying.
i went to private school, so i wore a skirt.  had pigtails.  so i wasn't persecuted for looking gender varient or for trying to be a boy or anything like that. it was because i was that little girl with the blond ponytail who just clearly wasn't a real girl. a little girl with male instincts.
and i lost a lot for that. too much.

when i talk about socialization and hormones vs inherent behaviour, it is NOT to be elitist or hurt anyone. but when people chalk everything up to socialization and HRT, it belittles and dismisses what i and others went through.
my entire childhood was derailed because of this and that hurts. that HURTS.

Posted on: December 15, 2007, 08:12:51 AMalso, though everyone makes estrogen and testosterone jokes, you'd be hard pressed to find a cisgendered person (other than a few militant feminists who want to believe there's no difference between men and women) who actually believes that socialization and hormones are responsible for their personalities.

there have also been cases of little boys raised as girls having all the normal socialization, completely unaware of their true sex and it didn't work.
dr. money has already been disproven.

[NicholeW.]

its all estrogen? socialisation? i heavily disagreee... that removes all gender hardwireing you want to claim to not feel like you chose to change physical sex...
I think socialisation has very little to do with this, and its simply an excuse tbh... there are enough cases of teen, and infant transitions showing it CANT be socialisation, what have they had? yet they already behave one way?
there are enough transpeople who literally cant cope/function as thier raised sex to prove its simply not ALL learned or chemical...
R

I would like nothing more than to know that I am not a product of either my environment nor my biology. But, that would make me something no one else is. The factors of socialization and bio-chemical fact do not invalidate anything or anyone. They make each of us what we are. Part of humanity. But a part is not All. How we live out our lives given certain human limitations is a much larger part.

Where exactly do you know of 'infant' transitions? Please cite references because that would, indeed, change the entire perspective I have anyhow. Like you, perhaps, I felt early on that there was something very different about me. I was not a 'typical boy.' In seeing my sons live their lives I begin to have some inkling of how we are different. They have no doubts, no reservations, about 'who they are.' I am absolutely grateful for that, because I would not have them struggle the ways that I have had to do.

My oldest told me a few years ago that he felt that I was born this way "because you can deal with it, Mom. Others cannot." That is a comforting thought. One I do so wish a lot of others would get about themselves. I think that it would be a great pain-alleviator.

As for socialization of humans, it begins immediately we are born and continues throughout the lifespan. Socialization is born into us and our kind. Humans ARE social creatures. No one lives outside a family, clan tribe, or culture and those facts affect us each one. We are not somehow radically 'free.' Much as we might like to think so. We are all contingent on where we are to help make us who we are.

Since the 1930s and 1940s the uses of estrogenic and steroidal hormones for increasing vegetable and animal productivity have become endemic. It doesn't require a lot of contortions to think that a syndrome, possibly rather rare before, has become something we see on a more frequent order than it was seen in human history. Just over the past decade or so the entire 'organic' movement has begun to take off. People are beginning to recognize that the things we invent to make things better have often made things worse in some respects. The endemic use of hormones may well be one of those items.

Have there always been transsexuals? Well, I think yes. I do think that environmental factors whereby the increase in estrogens, particularly, has become endemic rather than particular to specific locales and times has increased the incidence of transsexualism. For instance, after three miscarriages prior to my birth, I am aware that my mother was given diethylstilbestrol (DES) to promote what was thought to be a way to prevent miscarriages. This procedure was very typical in miscarriage-prone women from the 1940s through the very early 1970s when its use was discontinued.

Although it has not been linked definitely to TS incidence, there is some evidence that tends to thinking that, for some of us, it may have been a causal factor. It has certainly been linked to cancers forming in babies, and in adults, whose mothers were given the compound.

Whatever causes/d us to be is really not the important thing here. That we are is the important item we need to focus on. If I require an absence of socialization/bio-chemical or other environmental factors in order to feel 'validated,' well, maybe that is something I need to delve into for myself.

The fact that "I am," period, is what seems salient to me. That is the fact that I have to live with.

There are people who "cant cope or function" in any number of areas, but they are not even nearly all TSes.

I don't require an 'excuse' for who I am. The entire discussion, in that light, seems moot to me. It's how I deal with who I am that is the important factoid that gets left out in these discussions. The hows and whys are just thought-experiments. 

 

[Nero]

'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.

and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.

[NicholeW.]

'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.

and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.

My dearest, Nero. Your only 'character flaw' is the one I pmed you about!!! LOL and as you may be able to tell, I don't perceive that as a flaw, rather as something that endears you to me.

YOU ARE, Nero. That is the bottom line; and the truly important aspect of you that no one can diss or change or make light of, unless you believe them and forget WHO YOU ARE. 

You are forever REAL and wondrous and absolutely valid and .... dammit, such a hard-headed and stubborn MALE!!!! LOL.

You struggle, as we all do, with knowing and feeling that some people want to find every possible way to invalidate you and WHO YOU ARE. Screw 'em. Your existence defies their feeble attempts to invalidate you.

But, I also know well from experience, that it's a constant struggle to get through, around, over, under, whatever, that.

I think we each just want to fit in and this syndrome of ours, regardless how it came about, is what it is and it makes it terribly hard for those who haven't lived with it to see beyond their illusions that the world is a nice, tidy, totally-explainable-in-terms-of-my-own-outlook-on-life-and-what-is-possible-and-what-is-not world-view that they forget that WE ARE.

Its tough to be a unicorn when no one believes that there are unicorns.

We all require human companionship and the validation that comes from having people love us just because we are ourselves. And yes, that is a hard thing to receive from only a bulletin board on internet.

You are one of my heroes, dear Nero. And, just as my son said of me, you are as you are "because you can deal with it.... Others cannot."

HUGS and love.

Posted on: December 15, 2007, 09:25:08 AM

I am aware that my mother was given diethylstilbestrol (DES) to promote what was thought to be a way to prevent miscarriages. This procedure was very typical in miscarriage-prone women from the 1940s through the very early 1970s when its use was discontinued.

hmmmm.,  my mom was given that too.

Posted on: December 15, 2007, 08:10:02 AM

'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.

and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.

i dont think thats what she meant.  i took it as there are a lot of people who suffer from a lot of different things, not just ts, and it is not the inability to cope or function that makes us ts.  its not discounting the pain and suffering we went through (and in many cases are still going through  ) but she is saying that by itself it doesnt make us who we are.

if i'm wrong feel free to correct and/or just ignore me.

~ashley~

You are not wrong, Ashley. All kinds of folk struggle with validation and acceptance and tons of mental and physical anomalies and all without being TS.

[Nero]

'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.

and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.

My dearest, Nero. Your only 'character flaw' is the one I pmed you about!!! LOL and as you may be able to tell, I don't perceive that as a flaw, rather as something that endears you to me.

YOU ARE, Nero. That is the bottom line; and the truly important aspect of you that no one can diss or change or make light of, unless you believe them and forget WHO YOU ARE. 

You are forever REAL and wondrous and absolutely valid and .... dammit, such a hard-headed and stubborn MALE!!!! LOL.

You struggle, as we all do, with knowing and feeling that some people want to find every possible way to invalidate you and WHO YOU ARE. Screw 'em. Your existence defies their feeble attempts to invalidate you.

But, I also know well from experience, that it's a constant struggle to get through, around, over, under, whatever, that.

I think we each just want to fit in and this syndrome of ours, regardless how it came about, is what it is and it makes it terribly hard for those who haven't lived with it to see beyond their illusions that the world is a nice, tidy, totally-explainable-in-terms-of-my-own-outlook-on-life-and-what-is-possible-and-what-is-not world-view that they forget that WE ARE.

Its tough to be a unicorn when no one believes that there are unicorns.

We all require human companionship and the validation that comes from having people love us just because we are ourselves. And yes, that is a hard thing to receive from only a bulletin board on internet.

You are one of my heroes, dear Nero. And, just as my son said of me, you are as you are "because you can deal with it.... Others cannot."

HUGS and love.

Posted on: December 15, 2007, 09:25:08 AM

I am aware that my mother was given diethylstilbestrol (DES) to promote what was thought to be a way to prevent miscarriages. This procedure was very typical in miscarriage-prone women from the 1940s through the very early 1970s when its use was discontinued.

hmmmm.,  my mom was given that too.

Posted on: December 15, 2007, 08:10:02 AM

'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.

and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.

i dont think thats what she meant.  i took it as there are a lot of people who suffer from a lot of different things, not just ts, and it is not the inability to cope or function that makes us ts.  its not discounting the pain and suffering we went through (and in many cases are still going through  ) but she is saying that by itself it doesnt make us who we are.

if i'm wrong feel free to correct and/or just ignore me.

~ashley~

You are not wrong, Ashley. All kinds of folk struggle with validation and acceptance and tons of mental and physical anomalies and all without being TS.

ok. i misunderstand what you meant. thanks for clarifying, sweeties.

[Rachael]

As most here know, i was a victim of money's lies... his doctrine was used at the time of my birth... i was asigned male at birth after corrective surgery. raised a boy, raised masculine, and punished for femininity... all boys private school... i wasnt aware of my past till recently... if this were all hormones or socilaisation... the testosterone injections, and way i was raised would suggest id be an awesome manly man...
I AM NOT A MAN. i never felt like one, ive never been able to socialise with men as a man.
please tell me what the testosterone or socilisastion did ? please? i want to know how that in any way made me male? becuse surely, i wouldnt feel female if i was socialised male?
R

[Veronica Secret]

I really had a hard time pretending I was a man too.

[NicholeW.]

 What I said was that we are ALL socialized. Anything beyond that did not come from me, and i don't recall seeing anyone say it at all.

Now, show me a baby who transitions without the aid of its parents and a surgeon due to an intersexed condition or that there is an innate relationship between women and pink or lavender then maybe I will go with 'gender as essential.' (Essential in a metaphysical way, see below.) 

The question is 'are you socialized?' Period. And if you are do your behaviors reflect your socialization? My answer to both is, 'yes.' If your behaviors are 'female' it is because you have socialized into femininity as it is culturally perceived. -- That has nothing to do with some innate 'being born a woman.' Were you born to like pink and long nails or a bra?

The fact that you rejected a male socialization because it was not perceived by yourself as what was needed is not at issue.

If estrogen in the environment, although it is just as likely that it could have been an androgenic steroid that made it, somehow caused a hormonal cascade in your Mum to go differently than your egg had anticipated and thus you were born, maybe with male genitalia when your brain had a female wiring, does that invalidate you as a woman? NO.

All I have been saying is that our behaviors within certain gender-identified norms are learned and that they are cultural. Not all cultures demand women wear bras. Not all cultures demand men wear pants or suits as we know them in the West.

So yeah, it really is tough to pretend you are something you aren't. But, your argument with me is non-existent, or seems so to me. All I am saying is that our behaviors are learned. Whether or not there is a discrepancy in our brain wiring IS NOT learned. How that discrepancy came about may well be due, this day and time, to environmentally numerous, non-natural occurrences of estrogen and androgens brought about by technological 'advances.'

Does TSism occur naturally? Yes, unless you are a one-celled creature not born that way it does. The only sure-fire way to reproduce without some mutational chance is to clone a perfect copy of the original. But, I don't think anyone here is an amoeba. With the number of genes that must be copied exactly in a strand of DNA there is a naturally occurring mistake-rate. Thus, without environmental factors a certain number of TSes every generation is likely to occur: people born with brain structures that don't fit their body maps and people with ambiguous genitalia (IS) etc.

My argument is with some Platonic Ideal in a heavenly realm somewhere that makes any of us 'essentially' male and female. I prefer biochemical for how we are and socialized for how we behave.

I think that everyone here who ids as TS quite obviously didn't 'take' with the socialization they were given. But, many of us made the attempt to get affection and acceptance from those we were raised by and among. Some of those traits we were conditioned for either remain or have been dropped and others taken on. But, my putting on my lipstick when I go out to work is not 'hard-wired.' My femaleness is.

Sorry if that has been unclear.

[Joyce]

I know im being very blunt here. but This board, and others, and the transcommunity in general has an ethos of NON challenge of someones decided gender... Im never going to say to someone, your not a man/woman... but lets be honest, point blank beliveing anyone who says thier a man/woman when they behave, think, react, and look like the oposite is near impossible. and there is an element of dilusion and fantisy in some cases... Some attitudes expressed here in writing, are very easy to see someones thought patterns. and a fair few 'm2fs' debate, think, and talk in very male ways... same with some f2ms in some very female ways... im not talking about steriotypes here, or masculine and feminine, im talking about MAN and WOMAN things...

I would think it would be awfully hypocritical to create spaces like Susan's that are designed to discuss fluid gender and then turn around and, as you say, "challenge someone's decided gender."  I understand what you're saying in your post, Rachael, but it seems to me that you're trying to collapse what most everyone recognizes as a spectrum into a simple binary.  By your same logic, we ought to be critical (perhaps gently so, as I don't think your post is intended to be mean-spirited) of cisgendered folks who don't adhere to stereotypical norms, or "MAN and WOMAN things," as you put it. 

Look, delusion and fantasy are certainly not unique to this community -- my college-age students say things that strike me as fantastic and delusional all the time.  However, I myself am not confident about passing judgment on others' beliefs and writing to someone that they're never going to be a man because they don't act like the Marlboro Man.  It just seems to fall into the essentialism trap far too easily.

[Yvonne]

I think that we have to take into account that peeps that don't believe in gender as a "spectrum" will make an opinion based on those beliefs.  I only believe in the binary and my opinions may appear insulting to peeps that believe otherwise but sorry that's what I believe.  If we can't discuss a topic truthfully and with honesty, how in the world are we going to express our opinions?

[Rachael]

I hold the same view... i belive in man and woman... if others want to belive in different.. is it my place to tell them they cant? just dont force me to belive your way, or tell me mine is wrong...
live and let live.
R

[Joyce]

live and let live.

Indeed, Rachael.  I'd certainly agree with you.  I think that was my only point a few posts ago, namely that it felt as if you were being critical of those who are delusional or having fantasies about how they are, and that I preferred to live and let live.  It appears that we see eye to eye on this issue, so mea culpa on my misreading.

[Rachael]

i dont think you did misread... I am critical of those who are delusional... simply because its in thier best interests to NOT be... happy in thier bubble? maybe? catasropic when that bubble bursts? yes... bring them down safely? the only option...
I would personally want people to tell me if i was bonkers...
R

[Joyce]

I see.  So it's "live and let life" unless you feel otherwise? 

I don't necessarily disagree with you about helpful criticism for friends who may end up hurting themselves or getting hurt via unwise decisions.  I'm just not sure you're talking about being protectively helpful or being brutally honest to be point of hurtfulness.  Maybe that's a line that's hard to discern among friends?  I'm also not sure when you'd stick to your "live and let live" credo and when you'd ditch it in order to tell someone they're "bonkers." 

[Rachael]

its never that simple...
sometimes being militantly live and let live, can be as bad as being hightly oppinionated...
I try to find a ballence... there are times when one should say something, and times to just flow...
there are different cases... respecting others gender identity, is not the same thing, as sitting there while say, the machoest, most male looking m2f tells you how awesomely they pass and are stealth...
R

[Keira]

I think Live and Let live is good for random strangers, but with
friends, this is not a good solution. It hurts yourself and them
if you don't tell them your honest opinion. IF they trust
you and your forthright they will accept it even if it hurts.
Lying to your friends is much worse.

[Nero]

I think Live and Let live is good for random strangers, but with
friends, this is not a good solution. It hurts yourself and them
if you don't tell them your honest opinion. IF they trust
you and your forthright they will accept it even if it hurts.
Lying to your friends is much worse.

yep. even if honesty hurts your friend for a moment, they're better off in the long run.

[Shana A]

I would personally want people to tell me if i was bonkers...
R

OK, you're bonkers 

[Rachael]

i know... its my middle name...
R