Paul’s Thorn (2 Corinthians 12)

[echo7]

I grew up in a devout Christian family, and was a firm and willing believer from my childhood and into adulthood.  I was heavily involved in church activities and even took on a few leadership positions.  But throughout my life, I always struggled with a feeling of wanting to be a woman.

I tried to push those feelings aside and bury them, telling myself that they were sinful thoughts.  I told myself that I was a pervert for wanting to wear women's clothes.  I prayed to God over and over and over, countless times, to take these thoughts away from me; to make me into the man I was taught to be.  But the feelings of wanting to be a woman never went away.

Related to this, one of the Bible passages that always stuck with me was 2 Corinthians 12.  I thought that maybe these cross-gender feelings were a 'thorn in my flesh', similar to Paul's thorn.  Maybe it was something I just had to endure so that I would rely on God's grace and strength instead of my own power.  Maybe it was a test to see if I could resist it.  Maybe I should have even taken delight in my hardship of being a non-transitioned woman, in order to glorify God in my weakness?  Maybe.

Here is the Bible passage.  What do you all make of it?

Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.  Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.  But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.  That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

[zirconia]

Hi, Echo

I have no idea regarding what the thorn in Paul's flesh may have been. However, assuming it was some kind of persistent temptation, ability to resist it would to me seem to imply strength. Since Paul states he delights in boasting about his weakness, I would rather suspect he meant he wasn't able to.

That said, I confess I'm too lazy to look up the context of the quoted passage. It may possibly offer additional hints to what may have been going on.

[ajtent]

Echo,
Sorry about this rant but I am right there with you.
My knowing that I am different inside, to what I am on the outside, is not a thorn.
I'm going to change some of those outside things. I have had 6 decades of living male and now I have the opportunity to live the last years of my life the way I always wanted to - as female as possible.
Some might think that the first six decades were a curse. I don't, it just took me that long to get brave enough to come to terms with who I really am. I knew something was wrong when I was a little boy. Back then there was no internet or medical technologies like we have today. They would have locked me up and sedated me back then. We live today, in a better world that will hopefully continue to grow in understanding our hurt.

I have self-harmed my genitals since the age of 8 or 9. I wanted to be rid of my maleness, rid of testosterone and I always had to live with guilt. I wished that I could just flip a switch and be a girl/woman. A long time ago, I learned about Grace. Grace happened for us when Jesus died on the cross and became the ultimate sacrifice. That sacrifice blew away the "Law", the 10 commandments. That "ultimate sacrifice" stopped the animal sacrifices that preceded it or we would still be doing it today. Churches work hard to make you feel like you were/are under the law because they have this "fear" (false evidence appearing real) that "tithing" donations would dwindle. They want your money and fear brings it to them.

Bible says in;
1 Samuel 16:7 –
"But the Lord said to Samuel, 'Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature...for the Lord does not see as mortals see; they look on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.'"
And in Galatians 3:26-28 –
"For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus."
In St. Matthew 22:36-39 – it says;
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
And in the gospel of St. John 13:34-35 it says;
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

I don't want to get preachy but as a Christian, I live under Grace. Many people, especially those who are quick to judge, or condemn, live under the Law. I don't attend a structured church because of ministers/teachers who like to place God's Children under the Law instead of Grace. They teach hatred, misunderstanding and condemnation for any who are different or live against ways they cannot understand. God understands whether you are gay, straight, bi, trans or any orientation, gender or race.

These ministers need to rethink what they are teaching their flock as it says in Romans 3:23 in the King James Version (KJV);
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God..."
In Romans 7:15 – in the New International Version, St. Paul says;
"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."
In Luke 6:37 of the New International Version of the Bible it says;
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
Again, sorry for the rant but this is the only way I can live
Ajtent

[Dianne H]

Actually, Paul wrote the word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. This means the word  of God manifests those good or evil things in our heart by the response we give unto the word of God.

There is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.
A sin not unto death is unintentional, performed in ignorance or beyond our ability to control. These can be forgiven.

A sin unto death is an abomination or blasphemy of the Holy Ghost by rejection of or rebellion against the word of God. There is no forgiveness for these. (words of Jesus)

Luke 12: 10
[10] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


When people (many Christians) learn about the word of God manifesting what's in our heart and that which is manifested is either a sin unto death or a sin not unto death, they will realize that not all abominations are classified by sexual or gender identity.

Not all straight, gay, trans or cis people will go to heaven.
Not all straight, gay, trans or cis people will go to hell.

There will those of each group who hear "well done thou good and faithful servant; enter into the joy of the Lord."
There will those of each group who hear "depart from me ye worker of iniquity; I never knew you."

Jesus said of the seed on four types of soil a thorn is riches or cares of this world.

A "thorn in the flesh" is a sin not unto death or a weakness or care we cannot handle without mercy.

Only if we love that thorn more than Jesus will we re crucify him with a crown of thorns.

[KathyLauren]

I am not a Christian, but I was raised as one.  Most of my friends are Christians, and I can still talk to them in Christian terms.  So, with that disclaimer...

We are born trans.  That is a biological / medical fact.  Being born this way means that God wanted us to be trans.  And God does not make mistakes.  So being trans is not a sin, nor is it a temptation that we are supposed to resist.  We are part of God's plan.

I find that the parable of the Talents is relevant.  When God gives us a gift, he doesn't want us to bury it.  He wants us to run with it, invest it, make something of it.  There is no way of knowing why He gave us this unusual gift of being trans, but our challenge is to see if we can make something of it.  Can we handle His gift, or will we reject it?

My life experience so far is that rejecting it brings suffering, while accepting it brings joy.

[BlueJaye]

I grew up in a devout Christian family, and was a firm and willing believer from my childhood and into adulthood.  I was heavily involved in church activities and even took on a few leadership positions.  But throughout my life, I always struggled with a feeling of wanting to be a woman.

I tried to push those feelings aside and bury them, telling myself that they were sinful thoughts.  I told myself that I was a pervert for wanting to wear women's clothes.  I prayed to God over and over and over, countless times, to take these thoughts away from me; to make me into the man I was taught to be.  But the feelings of wanting to be a woman never went away.

Related to this, one of the Bible passages that always stuck with me was 2 Corinthians 12.  I thought that maybe these cross-gender feelings were a 'thorn in my flesh', similar to Paul's thorn.  Maybe it was something I just had to endure so that I would rely on God's grace and strength instead of my own power.  Maybe it was a test to see if I could resist it.  Maybe I should have even taken delight in my hardship of being a non-transitioned woman, in order to glorify God in my weakness?  Maybe.

Here is the Bible passage.  What do you all make of it?

Hi, Echo. I have had similar thoughts regarding that passage. However, I don't believe that being transgender would ever stop being a "thorn in the flesh" even if you decided to transition. Your history follows you no matter how hard you try to conceal it. Somebody is always bound to "out" you, sometimes maliciously. Having people know you are transgender will always lead to at least some conflict.

My personal opinion on Paul's statement regarding the "thorn in the flesh" is that it refers to his persecution of Christians prior to his conversion. The reason I believe this is because it is stated that it originates from a "messenger of Satan". Satan is the "accuser of our brethren". A messenger from Satan kept reminding Paul of his past, and giving him thoughts of condemnation.

I think that is a big struggle for transgender people. The feelings and thoughts of condemnation. A lie so powerful it drives many to suicide. It is one major reason I want to reach out to other transgender people and let them know the good news of Jesus Christ. "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus". Regardless of what people think of us, we have assurance from God that we can be free from any condemnation on His part.