Cross dressing as a fetish that fuels HRT/Transitioning? Eventual crash?

[Asakawa]

Hello!

I was wondering about how many individuals that started their transition had a previous history of cross dressing that manifested itself as a fetish? It seems that in some cases the fetish seems to fuel the progress of transition which then upon going through HRT the libido dies and causes a crash for the transitioning individual? I've seen some girls that stop transitioning at some point, for various reasons, but then upon going off HRT for a while and a returning libido seem to try/attempt to transition/hrt again?

So, I was wondering for just about how many people in our tg population begin with a cross dressing fetish? And actually go into HRT instead of just staying as a cross dressing male?

[elkie-t]

It may start as a fetish, but many transgender people find other reasons to continue.

Pure sexual excitement doesn't last that long for most...


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[jill610]

Maybe this is a difference between trans and someone who thinks they are?

For me, I thought putting on women's clothes was a fetish but it never resulted in sexual excitement.l, only shame. Now, it's just the clothes I wear because, well, they fit better. The only thing that causes me to have fleeting thoughts of stopping HRT is consideration of what my spouse is going through.

[Asakawa]

Pure sexual excitement doesn't last that long for most...

When you say that is that before or after starting HRT?

For me, I thought putting on women's clothes was a fetish but it never resulted in sexual excitement.l, only shame. Now, it's just the clothes I wear because, well, they fit better. The only thing that causes me to have fleeting thoughts of stopping HRT is consideration of what my spouse is going through.

I think some get excitement from the thought of becoming female or as a transformation, so for you it was never the case? In the past if you ever did cross dress would you just like watch tv or read a book for example and never be bothered by any sexual desires?

[Laurie]

  Hi  Asakawa,

  I'm Laurie, I see that you are new here. So please let me say, Welcome To Susan's Place! Come on in and take a good look around.  Perhaps I can even get you to hop on over to the Introductions Thread and  create a post to tell us a little bit more about yourself so we can get to know you a little better and greet you properly. I'll add some links and information below that can help you get more out of our site. Please take time to become familiar with them especially the RED one as we are always getting questions that are answered there.

  As for your question I crossdressed for most of my life and I enjoyed it. I used to think it was a fetish but I was wrong. Crossdressing for most is not a fetish it is part of who those people are. Yes, there was a component of sexual excitement and tremendous shame and guilt after but there was always a piece missing. That piece being that I always wished that I could actually be a girl. That was there whether I dressed or not. And that too was a source of shame and guilt for me because it was wrong to have such thoughts and do such things as I did. Eventually the excitement aspect of it stopped but the desire to appear as a woman didn't. I enjoyed looking feminine and wishing that I was never left me. At 64 I discovered why that was and began HRT to change my body to align better with who I am inside. I've always been female inside. Now I'm working on making my outsides match.

Hugs,
  Laurie
 
Laurie
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[HappyMoni]

I think so many people get messed up on this fear of fetish thing. I had it. It psyched me out. I found out a lot about how untrue it was when I went out in public and was perceived to be female. I loved it. I wasn't embarrassed as I thought I would be, I was on cloud 9. HRT helped with dysphoria and lessened the sex drive, but it didn't remove my need to be female. I think it needs to be understood that trans folks have sexual urges that are natural like everyone else, but because their gender is not right, those sexual desires get squeezed and it could be misinterpreted as a fetish. Of course, there are those who might have a true fetish. Someone who only wants to wear panties, or likes the feel of certain materials would be more fetishistic. For trans folk who might not want to transition once on HRT, one must consider the 'why.' Sure one could think they back off because  they aren't truly trans. The thing is, transition essentially blows up your existing life, is very difficult, and can cause you to lose loved ones. These things could certainly cause someone to want to bail on transition even when they are really trans.
I know transition is not for everyone. I admire anyone who tries to figure out their gender issues. If they start transition and find it isn't right, great. I suspect that there are a whole lot more who don't attempt a needed transition because of a fear that it is a fetish. That is a shame.
Moni

[Devlyn]

I don't know where y'all went to Fetish School, but putting on the clothing of the opposite gender won't even get you in the front door of my Alma Mater! 

Seriously, crossdressing would fall in the category of Fetishes, Light Entertainment.

<wandering off muttering>  ...whippersnappers think wearing clothes is a fetish...I'll show them a fetish or two...

[Harley Quinn]

I don't know where y'all went to Fetish School, but putting on the clothing of the opposite gender won't even get you in the front door of my Alma Mater! 

Seriously, crossdressing would fall in the category of Fetishes, Light Entertainment.

<wandering off muttering>  ...whippersnappers think wearing clothes is a fetish...I'll show them a fetish or two...

LOL

[Bari Jo]

I really wanted to believe mine was a fetish, and yes there was a sexual component to it.  For me my only release was fetish and sexual release.  I realized that I was being ruled by my libido, since it was the only time I allowed myself to be me.  That hit home, and the more I allowed myself time to be me outside of being sexualized, the better I felT.  HRT has helped immensely too.  Accepting myself internally has helped transitioning as well.  Now firmly on the road to transition with HRT, I can say it's not a fetish.  Its just me being me, and I like it.

Bari Jo

[elkie-t]

When you say that is that before or after starting HRT?

Way before. You need to understand a difference between someone who crossdressers once a month in his own room, gets excited, gets bored (what is there really to do at home?), goes watch porno, orgazmed, felt ashamed, I dressed and stopped doing it for a months or so... and someone who dresses most of the time, goes out (you cannot really get too excited outside can you?), etc.

Once you start doing it regularly and going out, there's no place for sexual arousal.

You can argue it's not for sexual excitement, but adrenaline... but adrenaline also goes away after first couple of outings.

I personally do it for calmness, sensual pleasantness (hard to deny female clothes are nice and soft), and mental freedom (male face plenty of taboos, once you broken one of the biggest - you don't have to act male at all anymore).

[elkie-t]

I think some get excitement from the thought of becoming female or as a transformation, so for you it was never the case? In the past if you ever did cross dress would you just like watch tv or read a book for example and never be bothered by any sexual desires?

Absolutely. Just regular house routines, cooking, cleaning, shopping, entertainment in the form of tv or a book, most of the time.

I cannot say I did not get sexual/ fetish side of it, I got it, it just becomes old really quickly.

[Asakawa]

Thanks everyone!

SO many replies, I don't think I can respond to each one . It sounds to me like it does happen, but once the HRT kicks in people just pull through in a different way. I can relate a lot to some of the responses. I do think that when those thoughts and feelings come about it can be confusing and that going on HRT can create a degree of sight that one couldn't see before. I think it can also be more confusing! I used to cross dress all the time in my room and even after hrt I still did not. Could not quite come out  to the outside world due to family issues . Glad to know there are others that have dealt with a similar issue and have seen the difference once they were on hrt after a while.

[elkie-t]

Thanks everyone!

SO many replies, I don't think I can respond to each one . It sounds to me like it does happen, but once the HRT kicks in people just pull through in a different way. I can relate a lot to some of the responses. I do think that when those thoughts and feelings come about it can be confusing and that going on HRT can create a degree of sight that one couldn't see before. I think it can also be more confusing! I used to cross dress all the time in my room and even after hrt I still did not. Could not quite come out  to the outside world due to family issues . Glad to know there are others that have dealt with a similar issue and have seen the difference once they were on hrt after a while.

I say it's irrelevant to HRT, probably relevant to being full-time and going out.

[Laurie]

   There are those that cross dress because it is a fetish for them and are obsessed with it specifically for sexual gratification. IE cross dressing is required for sexual gratification.

   There are cross dressers who do so because they enjoy it. Sexual excitement need not be part of it.

  Then there are those that cross dress as part of their desire to be the opposite sex and it appeases their gender dysphoria. They may not be aware that they are transgender at that time.  It may include a sexual component to it for awhile but that passes and the crossing continues because of the need to be the opposite gender. Once they discover they are transgender they begin transition and the dressing just becomes normal and the dysphoria lessens or disappears.

   The above is how I understand it. I may be incorrect. I believe most of us fell into the last description. I know that I do.

Hugs,
  Laurie

[noleen111]

I dunno if my cross dressing habit was a fetish. I just enjoyed wearing pantyhose (I was always attracted to women with pantyhose) and maybe I tried to emulate that. I wore pantyhose when I could all through my teens.. later in my teens I acquired a cheer leader skirt and a pair of panties, which would join the pantyhose. As a teen I never shaved my legs or anything like that.. I just enjoyed the clothes.

I was 19 when I first started to seriously cross dress with help of a close female friend by fully dressing up, i even started shaving my legs and body and my friend pierced my ears for me, so I could wear earrings . Here I began exploring whether I was trans with a therapist and at the age of 21, I started hormones

[CarlyMcx]

I never cross dressed (other than during previous transition attempts).  I just could not stand how female clothes looked on my masculine looking body.  It made me feel further from being female rather than closer to it and sometimes it just made me cry.

[KathyLauren]

I cross-dressed off and on.  I assumed it was a fetish, because, well, what else would it be?  But it wasn't.

Although I would often get aroused, that wasn't what it was about.  It was about feeling comfortable, and enjoying how I looked.  It was about being my true self.  Changes in libido had absolutely nothing to do with my transition.

My cross-dressing was dimply a symptom of being trans.

[Asakawa]

Someone posted an interesting article in another thread that I feel has relevance to the subject we are discussing so I want to go ahead and link it here:

http://www.avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm

Notes on Gender Role Transition
Anne Vitale PhD, Editor



T-Note 15
Testosterone Toxicity Implicated in Male-To-Female Transsexuals? Some thoughts.

Anne Vitale Ph.D.
March 21, 2009


Long before I saw my first case involving a Male-To-Female (MTF) transsexual who decided to take testosterone in order to return to living her life in the male gender role (more about that below), I became suspicious of testosterone being the hormone that causes gender dysphoria in some genetic males. Obviously this is not true for the vast majority of males, they do just fine on normal levels of testosterone (300-999 ng/dl). However, a subset of genetic males appear to respond to testosterone in a manner that evokes an overwhelming desire to express feelings of femininity. I know that sounds counterintuitive but hear me out.

When we take into account that all perinatal males experience defeminization of the brain (Wallen and Baum (2002), thereby leaving them incapable of female behavior and sensibility, by testosterone that is converted to estradiol by a process of aromatase, it is not too hard to imagine, that for some reason, yet to become clear to science, that that process could easily have been disrupted leading to incomplete masculinization of some male brains. In addition, to account for the periodic need to cross dress in certain males, I predict that eventually we will find that as testosterone levels rise above some threshold in the daily lives of these males (Ahokoski et al 1998), that the enzyme aromatase becomes active and temporarily converts testosterone into estradiol forcing a strong desire to dress and live, even if only temporarily, as a woman.

Here are some observations:

It is well known that the body works very hard to maintain hormonal homeostasis. Both sexes naturally produce both androgenic and estrogenic compounds. Males produce levels of androgens, primarily from the testes, significantly high enough to not only maintain male secondary sex characteristics and male demeanor but also to limit the effect endogenous estrogens, also produced from the testes, from inducing feminizing effects on their body. The opposite is true for genetic females. Females produce sufficiently high levels of estrogens, primarily from the ovaries, to not only maintain their female secondary characteristics but to also limit any masculinizing effect the low levels of endogenous testosterone produced in the adrenals may have on their body. Essentially masculine homeostasis in males is maintained by a “balanced” high testosterone to low estradiol ratio and feminine homeostasis in genetic females is maintained by a “balanced” high estradiol to androgens ratio. This A/E relationship is dynamic over the life span. As estrogen levels decrease (women experiencing menopause), testosterone levels automatically increase to maintain homeostasis. The opposite is true, when testosterone levels in older males decrease, estrogen levels automatically increase in response. The result is softer skin and minor breast development.

What is significant about this paradigm is that the androgen/estrogen hormonal relationship can be manipulated artificially. With the exogenous administration of cross sex hormones, the A/E ratio can be completely reversed leading to significant physical and emotional alteration to an individual’s appearance and demeanor.

*******

It is well known that large doses of exogenous estrogens administered to some genetic males, dramatically reduces the anxiety of gender dysphoria. The same outcome is true when gender dysphoric genetic females take testosterone. (i.e. Testosterone increases-->Estrogen decreases = feelings of well being). In this later case, it is reasonable to believe that what would otherwise be normal levels of estrogen in most women, can have an anxiety invoking effect in others.

*******

It is also known that the administration of cross sex hormones MUST be maintained to sustain the anxiolytic effect. It is not unusual for some patients, feeling better after starting hormones, to believe they are cured and no longer need to continue the medication. Unfortunately what they experience is a quick return of their gender dysphoria. If there is any physical test to determine who should seriously consider partial or full transition, taking cross sex hormones is it.

*******

Case study 1.: In 2005 a genetic male who had transitioned to the female gender role (Sex Reassignment Surgery in the mid 1980s) and had been living happily--or at least contently--as a woman for 20 years, presented to me with relationship issues. What is significant about this case is that the individual made the appointment using her legal female name (S.) but presented as an individual with a male appearance and a subdued but obvious male demeanor.

On further discovery, it was learned that two years earlier, while S. was still living in the female gender role, she met a woman and fell in love. They started dating and eventually cohabiting. As is common with most MTFs, her libido was low to nonexistent. To please her girlfriend, she returned to the doctor who originally prescribed her estrogen, and asked to be put on testosterone to increase her libido.

However, along with the increase in libido, the testosterone caused a re-masculinization of her body. To complicate matters, the girlfriend not only enjoyed her partner's increased libido, she also enjoyed the masculinization and encouraged S. to take increasingly massive doses of testosterone. In time S. had in effect retransitioned back to looking and presenting as a male.

To S's surprise, a strong unrelenting desire to be a woman returned to pre-transition levels. Still owning a large female wardrobe, she started to cross dress to relieve the anxiety. The problem now was that the girl friend was upset over seeing her, now male looking lover, wearing women's clothes and was threatening to leave her unless she stopped. Totally distraught over her situation, S. came to me in the hope that I could help to save the relationship. In the end S. realized that in order to find peace, she needed to give up the relationship, stop taking the testosterone and resumed an estrogen regimen. She is now happily--or at least contently--once again living in the female gender role.

Case Study 2.: In a similar vein, I recently received an email message from a genetic male who had transitioned, complete with SRS, to living in the female gender role in the early 1980s. Over the last several years the individual, expressing regret for having transitioned, reported that he had been very active over the internet as an anti-transition advocate. Having read my previous report on what role I believe testosterone plays in exciting feelings of femineity in some males, he contacted me telling me that in an attempt to remasculinize, he made three attempts at taking testosterone, all with the same result. Puzzled by it all, he writes:

"That's the third time I've taken testosterone and every time I've had overwhelming desires to present myself as a female."

*******

Another factor to consider is the oft reported unrelenting, persistent nature of untreated gender dysphoria chronic across the entire life span. In order for that to be, there must be an ongoing, disconnect between androgen/estrogen levels produced by the body and what receptors in the brain have been wired to expect. Evidence of sexual differentiation of the brain has been documented by research. Here I copy, in full, a passage from my essay "Current Thinking Regarding the Etiology of Gender Dysphoria" written in 2002

"Zhou J.-N, et al. (1997) examined the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), and found that a female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. This led them to declare that a female brain structure exists in genetically male transsexuals, supporting the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones".

In a follow-up study KRUIJVER et al. (2000) wanted to know if the reported difference according to gender identity in the central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) was based on a neuronal difference in the BSTc itself or a reflection of a difference in vasoactive intestinal polypeptide innervation from the amygdala. To do this they looked at 42 subjects to determine the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. They found that regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women. The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females, while the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. They go on to declare that

" findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.”

Conclusions: It is beyond dispute that there are both androgen and estrogen receptors in the brain. Genetic males normally have more active androgen receptors than women and women have more active estrogen receptors then men. That this “normal” distribution of estrogen and androgen receptor cells can be different in some individuals appears to be a possibility. It therefore follows that androgenic and estrogenic compounds will result in a modified-to-counter expected behavior in affected individuals. For reasons beyond the scope of this Note and as counterintuitive as it may seem, it can only be assumed that testosterone plays a crucial role in forcing certain male individuals to crossdress and experience femininity to the maximum degree possibly.

References:

Kruijver, Frank P. M., Zhou Jiang-Ning, Pool Chris W., Hofman Michel A., Gooren Louis J. G. and Swaab Dick F. (2000), Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 85: 2034&endash;2041.

Vitale A., (2002), Current Thinking Regarding the Etiology of Gender Dysphoria http://www.avitale.com/etiologicalreview.htm

Zhou J.-N, Hofman M.A, Gooren L.J, Swaab D.F (1997), A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality, Int J ->-bleeped-<- 1,1, http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm.

Handa R. J., Andersen M.E., Teeguarden J, and Conolly R. B. ( 2005), Non-Linear Dose Response Relationships for Developmental Responses: An Example with Defeminization by Estrogenic Xenobiotics Colorado State University; CIIT Centers for Health Research; Environ Corporation.

Wallen K. and Baum M.J. (2002), Masculinization and Defeminization in Altricial and Precocial Mammals: Comparative Aspects of Steroid Hormone Action. Hormones Brain and Behavior Volume four.

Ahokoski O; Virtanen A; Huupponen R; Scheinin H; Salminen E; Kairisto V; Irjala K (1998) Biological day-to-day variation and daytime changes of testosterone, follitropin, lutropin and oestradiol-17beta in healthy men. Clin Chem Lab Med. 1998; 36(7):485-91 (ISSN: 1434-6621)

I think that there are some individuals that do get a heightened level of dysphoria when on normal levels of testosterone, and some of these, not all, can have a 'crash' of sorts once placed on HRT and Testosterone has greatly dropped. I don't think that they are males, but rather trans and actual women, because there is an inherent difference that they have between regular males. It's just that the wiring is different and the brain responds differently when seeing T and seeing E.

What I mean to say, for anyone in the future who reads this, if you have similar feelings, feel confused, and can't understand feelings like the ones mentioned in the article... it's okay. It is normal and you just need to find a balance that will allow you to be who you are. You don't have to be male you don't have to be female, just be yourself. Be who you want to be and try to be happy with yourself. Females have testosterone too. Testosterone is not the devil! People need some T just to have a proper hormonal balance between E and T. The key is finding that balance.

I'm sure it won't make sense to some trans individuals, but I'm trying to reach out to those who are transitioning or have transitioned with these sort of feelings. I hope it helps.

[Daniellekai]

I cross dressed from birth till now, I think I'll stop soon though :p

[rmaddy]

Cis-woman who enjoys her sexuality and delights in her femininity:  NORMAL

Trans-woman who enjoys her sexuality and delights in her femininity:  FETISHIST



Please understand that the above statement was sarcasm.  It is utterly ridiculous to assume, as some have in the past, that having and/or indulging sexual fantasies involving your idealized sense of self prove that you are a fetishist.  No cis-person ever faces such creepy scrutiny and judgement of his or her thoughts. 

Society is rife with fetishes.  Almost everything you watch on TV or at the movies is fetishized something or other.  You are a single human being.  You have value.  You are not the problem here.  You know who you are, or at the very least, you are the one who is going to have to live with who you are.

Get decent help.  HRT is often quite useful in the management of gender dysphoria.  It has some significant and potentially permanent side effects, so it is not for everybody, but it is an option.  Your caregivers will help you figure out if it is right for you.  In most cases, there is no pressure whatsoever to figure this out immediately.  In the very unlikely case that your gender dysphoria arises from fetishistic thinking, then that too is an occasion for medical compassion and care.  There will still be potential solutions.  Talk to your counselor and providers.  Meanwhile, try to ignore the onslaught of messaging from society that fetishizes transgender identity for its own entertainment.