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How long before spironolactone starts blocking T?

Started by louise000, December 17, 2007, 04:10:15 AM

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louise000

Can someone please tell me whether spironolactone starts blocking testosterone immediately or whether there is a lead-in period.
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Keira

#1
Spiro blocks T immediatly, but how much T it blocks depends on
when you take it and how much.
Spiro has a short half life.
The second spiro effect, which is a bit related to the first,
is get the gonads to stop producing T.
This is done by preventing T binding.
Because T is free instead of binded to receptors, the pituary
send chemical signals to the gonads to stop producing
T. It thinks there is way too much even though there is
the same amount as before; before it got used, now
its just floating around in the blood. So, to
diminish this perceived excess it diminishes T production
(this can take awhile); probably at least 2 months if
the spiro dosage is high enough to substantially block
T binding. This dosage changes from person to person.



  •  

HelenW

It took three days for me to feel a difference.

hugs & smiles
Emelye
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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Ember Lewis

Personally I don't think it would take too long, but I'm kinda guessing. I do know that after 7 months or so I have a T range right in the middle of the levels of natal females.
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NicholeW.

A general rule of thumb is that testicles are infertile after 8-12 months of spiro and estrogen combined.
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Keira


Don't count on this for birth control though.
You can be residually fertile (even with a very low sperm count).
all the way trough... Those things are hard to kill.

Spiro blocks T at the receptor, which does give an immediate effect.
But, this effect is not contnuous during the day because
of spiro's short half life unless you split the dose and
take more than the minimum spiro dose.
Once the gonads are not pronouncing much, all
spiro needs to counter at the T receptors then,
a couple months in if using spiro alone, it only
has to counter T from the adrenals.


 
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gothique11

I'm not an expert, but I think the information is correct. And I also think that over time your body just starts producing less and less T. Now, that's in my case, but I don't know about other people. I have a few friends who had their T levels dropped a bit.

My T-levels when starting spiro liked to hang around 3-4, and then my spiro dose was cut in half after seven months, and my levels went down to 2.5, and then after a couple of months they went down to 0.5 and have been for the last six months. I don't know the latest results of my test (I find out on friday), but I don't expect them to be higher. But I'm really interesting to see if a change has happened and if things have balanced out a bit since we stopped progesterone. If it's too whacky, I might have to go back on it again. So, yeah, I've been through a few different HRT mixes to try to balance my hormones.

Now, one thing I should mention, which my doctor and I were talking about is that the T they test is free T in the blood, and some people can have a higher level of T in their bodies but that doesn't mean that the Spiro isn't working -- the spiro blocks the T from binding to the receptors, so you can have free T in your blood but it's not going binding to anything.

There is another test that can be done to see if anything is binding. It's a more involved test than the Free Androgen test, but my doctor usually doesn't do it unless the person isn't feminizing. And that can be an issue of biology rather than the amount of medications. For some people, very little happens while others seem to have a lot of changes (it has to do with how many estrogen receptors you have). It's not very common, but in some cases people have the biology where the E doesn't bind at all, or the anti-androgen doesn't work. Only know of two people that this happened, too. For one girl, surgery fixed the problem and she blossomed after that. The other girl hasn't has surgery, but her anti-androgens like to stop working after a few months, so they have to cycle them since her body ends up some how blocking the anti-androgen from working some how or something like that. Again, this is rare, and that's why it's important to talk to your doctor about different changes you notice, and she/he can look at your levels and run a lot of different tests and be able to know  what's going on. But remember, people go through growth spurts, so sometimes you might feel that your breasts have stopped growing for a couple of weeks, and then all of a sudden start again. It's common.

My endro said that the Estrogen plays a role in stopping the system from producing T. It also depends on your biology and how much your body already produces. Some people will produce more T than others.

One of my friends started taking tons and tons of spiro, for example, and her T levels weren't going down much (they were kind of high). She was confused (and so was her GP) until she also talked to the Endro and he said that she was fooling herself in thinking the Spiro will drop the levels, because it's just blocking it, it doesn't necessarily drop it. He then upped her E dose and her T levels went down to around 12, I think? Although it's slightly higher than the scale we use (F scale in our paper work is 0.5 to 8.5 or something like that), that doesn't mean that the spiro isn't blocking the T from binding.

So, basically, the moral of the story is not to get too caught up on T levels when you get your blood tested. The most important thing is that if you're feminizing or not. And, believe it or not, lower T levels -- like say, a 0.5 -- isn't as good as it sounds. You need a bit of T in your system for certain things. And if you have very low T for a long time and none if is binding to anything, it could cause health risks in the long run (yay me!).

And related, is the E levels. E levels that are higher don't always mean better. Mine keep loving to spike up and up despite being on the same dose (when I first started HRT my base level was 150, then it jumped to 250 after starting HRT, and on my last test it was at 1080), but my body only takes what it needs and the rest just goes through the liver, is turned into other hormones, and the rest is expelled from your system. The other risk with too high of E is that it could cause health problems in the long run. (yay me again!)

My doctor put it this way: Levels are checked to check your health and see how your body is taking the hormones, but the goal if feminization, not levels. Also, everyone body is different, so comparing levels isn't a good measure. Nor is comparing how fast one is feminizing to another person. Comparing too much can led to egos and broken hearts when really, we're all in this together.


--Natalie :)
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Keira


Gothique, .Estrogen also suppresses T production from the Gonads
with a similar mechanism as spiro, the pituary doesn't
distinguish between T and E and if there is a lot of E,
it will think the Gonads are already producing enough
T and stop sending a signal to it to producing T.
For this to work, the estrogen levels given to you \
must not be low.

Initially, many TS take lower E doses, which would not
be sufficient to stop the gonads producing T. That's
where using Spiro helps.


If you stopped using E and spiro, the pituary will
see this absence of hormones and send
a restart signal to the gonads (testes). It will
take awhile before you get the same T level
as before, but within a few week, so T would
be produced. That's what happens when TS
stop E before SRS.


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louise000

Thanks for the information. In Europe medical professionals seem to favour androcur as an anti-androgen and I understand it is very powerful, but I don't like the idea of it because it seems to have so many potential side effects and contra indications. I'm not sure they would let me have spironolactone instead, even though it seems to me as a lay person to be safer.
  •  

lisagurl

#9
After 3 months my T went from 310 to 660 on on my daily dosage of spiro. It seems the body produces more to catch up to the shortage. After 9 months it was down to 95 and after a year 26. I did not feel any different except to have to urinate more.
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kalt

I took my first dosage of Spiro this morning and wow, did it make me sleepy.

I had a somewhate serious question concerning spironolactone.  I asked two of my pharmacists but they wouldn't answer.
How much potassium is allowed while on spironolactone before it's too much?  I try to have a bit of fruit juice each day, and 90mg in my multivitamin.  So I wouldn't imagine I go over 200mg daily, but you never know!
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Keira


Under most diets, potassium is not an issue.
There is potassium is almost everything we eat.
Its only if you eat a lot of high potassium foods like bananas that this
may be a problem.
There is a list online of high potassium foods (googleable)
which is usefull for those who need to know.

Usually, just making sure you drink enough water and get enough salt
to replace what is lost through sweating is enough to prevent any problems.
The important is to keep the electrolyte balance between sodium and potassium
in the body fluids. Since spiro is potassium sparing and also a diuritic,
it reduces fluid volume in the body and doesn't get expelled so
this can be become out of balance. Spiro is particularly troublesome if
you exercise in warm weather since you would lose lots of water and
salt and the concentration of potassium in the blood would shoot up.

So, drinking sports drink in hot weather while exercising is crucial;
even people not taking spiro can get this problem in hot weather.
The first symptom is heavy leg cramping.

Legs are the first thing to cramp up in general when there's electrolyte
imbalances (spiro gives the opposite of
fluid retention in the legs, you've got fluid depletion in the legs and
thus get cramping as an early warning of electrolyte imbalances).

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kalt

Quote from: Keira on January 08, 2008, 10:33:29 PM

Under most diets, potassium is not an issue.
There is potassium is almost everything we eat.
Its only if you eat a lot of high potassium foods like bananas that this
may be a problem.
There is a list online of high potassium foods (googleable)
which is usefull for those who need to know.

Usually, just making sure you drink enough water and get enough salt
to replace what is lost through sweating is enough to prevent any problems.
The important is to keep the electrolyte balance between sodium and potassium
in the body fluids. Since spiro is potassium sparing and also a diuritic,
it reduces fluid volume in the body and doesn't get expelled so
this can be become out of balance. Spiro is particularly troublesome if
you exercise in warm weather since you would lose lots of water and
salt and the concentration of potassium in the blood would shoot up.

So, drinking sports drink in hot weather while exercising is crucial;
even people not taking spiro can get this problem in hot weather.
The first symptom is heavy leg cramping.

Legs are the first thing to cramp up in general when there's electrolyte
imbalances (spiro gives the opposite of
fluid retention in the legs, you've got fluid depletion in the legs and
thus get cramping as an early warning of electrolyte imbalances).


Oh wow, here I was already on this new cardio regime of an hour of cardio, biking or running, each day and hating it already.  So sweating is bad... I figured sweating would help get rid of extra potassium.  But don't sports drinks also have potassium, as well as salts in them?
Oh, and my legs are always cramped up.  When you squat almost 3X your BW, bike everyday with several books in your pack and run daily, along with crazy leg workouts a few times a week.... I'm only 19 and already on osteobiflex for my joints!
  •  

Keira


There are some with little potassium.
Just make sure to take in sodium.
  •  

Steph

I would strongly advise anyone on this site to consult with a medical professional before taking in vitamins or supplements or any medications in conjunction with HRT.  Each of us reacts differently and while general advice is informative and helpful it should not be taken as medical advice.

Steph
  •  

Keira

While I do agree. We were talking about nutrition here, not medications.
Multi-vitamins rarely have significant doses of potassium, compared
even to the mid range potassium foods. The reason is simple, all
foods are full of potassium and so its useless to supplement.

Anyway, most doctor's
don't issue much info about potassium and spiro (they monitor it
once in awhile instead), so it truly is not a major risk in most cases.

  •  

Steph

Quote from: Keira on January 08, 2008, 10:48:27 PM
While I do agree. We were talking about nutrition here, not medications.
Multi-vitamins rarely have significant doses of potassium, compared
even to the mid range potassium foods. The reason is simple, all
foods are full of potassium and so its useless to supplement.

Anyway, most doctor's
don't issue much info about potassium and spiro (they monitor it
once in awhile instead), so it truly is not a major risk in most cases.



My point still stands Keira.  Unless there is a member here who is a licensed Medical Professional who can produce credentials then we will not advise other members on what to supplement their HRT with or what they can and cannot combine it with.

From a personal stand point, my Dr and Endo were fully conversant with the dangers and side effects of combining supplements and medications with HRT.  Additionally in Ontario all prescribed medications must be accompanied with information listing this information for the person taking the drugs.

I also believe that you are being very unfair when you say that "Most doctors".  I will believe that most Dr you have seen, but to lump all the others together is really not called for, there are many good ones out there.

Steph
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Rebecca Polly

Agreed with Steph, be careful and talk to a health profesional. A low potassium diet is around 1500-2500mg's a day. It's more about portion size of what you eat. As far as sport's drinks go try orange juice or other juice and add a pinch of salt or one of those little packets you find free at food places, it's a long distance runners tip for replacing sodium lost while sweating.

Take care x
"Because we're worth it!"
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Echo Eve

Quote from: Rebecca Polly on July 05, 2015, 05:06:13 AM
Agreed with Steph, be careful and talk to a health profesional. A low potassium diet is around 1500-2500mg's a day. It's more about portion size of what you eat. As far as sport's drinks go try orange juice or other juice and add a pinch of salt or one of those little packets you find free at food places, it's a long distance runners tip for replacing sodium lost while sweating.

Take care x

Mm, I was worried about Potassium (K) levels while taking Spironolactone, too. But after speaking at length about it with my endo, it seems this isn't as big a concern as it's made out to be. He told me not to worry about K levels and not to bother changing my dietary habits. But that's just me, monitoring K levels may be extremely important to people with certain adverse health conditions.



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Rebecca Polly

A good point Echo. I'm in good health. There is more concern for people with unhealthy lifestyles or weight problems ect. I think if one's active the body contiually churns stuff around and uses and replaces. It's when everything sit's kinda dormant that problems can crop up. Still, forums are still only forums...
"Because we're worth it!"
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