Cosmetic vagina: advantages and disadvantages?

[echo7]

Analogy: if you served in the military, and you meet another veteran service member, you instantly share a connection. You both know that you have a shared experience in the trials and hardships you had to endure during your military career.  It bonds you together in a way that is unique and indescribable. You are like brothers and sisters.

And so it is with women, and the trials and experiences we share that are unique to our lives as women. The misogyny, the condescension, and the sexual harassment that most all women experience and endure. That shared experience bonds us together.

Another notable bond that most all women share is having to live with a vagina.  It's more maintenance than the male genitals. It needs to be cleaned and cared for.  Cis women have to deal with periods and all the pads, tampons, pain, and hassle of it all.  As trans women we won't have periods, but we can still experience the pain and hassle and annoyance of maintaining our vagina, if we have a vaginal canal.

While it's true that a cosmetic vagina is 'easier' and more 'practical', is that what transition is really about?  A numbers game?  A matter of practicality?  No, that is not my view.  I willingly take on the mantle of a woman and endure the hardships of womanhood as equally as possible as my cis sisters, because I want to have as close to a cis female experience and life as possible.  I am a woman, first and foremost, and I will do everything I can to experience every bit of womanhood, even the negatives and disadvantages.

[Mandy M]

Hmmm ... I'm wary of that kind of approach. I don't think any particular part of the body suddenly makes you or I a woman. Indeed, I think it's a psychobiological matrix of multiple factors that comprise gender identity, which even then is probably fluid.

After all, why fixate on a vagina and not a womb? And no amount of wishing is going to give us a cervix, ovaries or periods. At least, not yet in medical terms.

Gender is surely so much more complex and I think chasing after one particular operation is a fool's errand if that's the sole identifier. Surely, it should be received with the grace and acknowledgment that it is one part, perhaps a key part for some people, of a bigger picture that includes our whole psychosomatic being?

[echo7]

Oh, I fully subscribe to the idea that gender is in our minds, not in our genitals.  Our brain defines our gender, absolutely.

But, how do other people define our gender?  For the vast majority of the world population, and especially the western world, they believe that genitals define gender.  And as much as we may try and be successful at gradually changing that perception, the reality is that it won't change fast enough for it to matter, at least not in our lifetimes. 

I passed as a woman completely, but it wasn't until after my SRS that my female cis friends fully accepted me into their inner circle. Sure, they were nice and friendly up until then, and still invited me to women's events, but it wasn't until I gave up my male genitals that they truly accepted me as one of their own.  There was a subtle but clear difference.

Unless you're going to be living in a LGBT bubble where all of your friends are trans, this is something you'll need to consider.  Cis people do care about genitals, a lot. For them, gender and genitals are inextricably linked.

[SadieBlake]

I'm not so sure about the assumptions that recovery is that much easier with the cosmetic approach and no vaginal canal. To be sure, I'm biased, knew of the option and never considered it. Wanting to have penetrative sex that wasn't anal was a big motivator for proceeding to GCS. If it weren't I'd have likely stayed with hormones and hindsight tells me it was the right decision (for me) far and away and in ways I'd never imagined -- see my other threads for discussion.

One member here recently went that way and her recovery sounded every bit as difficult as mine. I know you can't make 1:1 comparisons and while I had at least average pain and difficulty as the rest of the Susan's class of '17, my recovery seems to have been easier than avarage. Still that's just one data point.

However, nearly all of my pain was experienced in the labia. This actually makes some sense to me as that's where most of the cutting and stitching happens. The vaginal canal is created by the method of blunt dissection, there is no cutting of tissue. My vaginal canal had pretty much sorted itself out at week 2, yet it was fully 7 weeks in before I could either sit or stand for more than 1/2 hour at a time without inducing a lot of pain and fatigue. I was back to blowing glass at week 5 however by the end of a short 4 hours (2 on the bench, 2 assisting) and having to lay down at every opportunity for more than a minute off my feet I was so drained that walking a mere 1/2 mile to the bus wasn't an option and I used Uber to get home for those first 2-3 weeks post-op.

Again, like another response above, I've discovered more happiness than I'e ever imagined and that's been very freeing. Sexuality had never been easy for all that it had certainly been fun before transition. Today, my attitude towards sex is so different from pre-op me or pre-HRT me. I truly had no idea how  much would change and I'm only a couple of months into serious exploration into being lesbian and haven't yet begun to explore being bisexual from a female place.

[Jessica Lynne]

I've spent a lifetime either wishing for or aspiring towards a female anatomy. I've rationalized that I was cheated of my birthright. I've dreamed of myself in my female incarnation hundreds if not thousands of times. All these things have led me to the position I'm in today. I know of no women with a "cosmetic" vagina that wouldn't consider that an aberration and problematic. My hope (and it certainly isn't universal) to approximate my Cis self (had the cards been dealt differently) in every way and manor modern medicine can provide me with. So for me, personally, it seems rather bizarre to get to the point of SRS and elect for something that isn't really found organically. This is not a judgement of others. It is only my perspective and justification for decisions I've personally made, which right or wrong is what it is.
     Now the woman that doesn't care and see's it as an alternative to Orchi? Well...so be it. I can understand that. But I have a vested interest in my ability to be a functional woman in the most rudimentary and binary sense. YMMV

[steph2.0]

Thank you everyone for contributing to this thread. This question is very much on my mind right now. I could potentially be ready for GCS by next May, and I'm having a very hard time making up my mind. Based on what I'm reading, and my personal bias, I'm beginning to believe that doing the full vaginoplasty is the right way to go for me. I'll keep reading and thinking...

Steph

[Charlie Nicki]

I've spent a lifetime either wishing for or aspiring towards a female anatomy. I've rationalized that I was cheated of my birthright. I've dreamed of myself in my female incarnation hundreds if not thousands of times. All these things have led me to the position I'm in today. I know of no women with a "cosmetic" vagina that wouldn't consider that an aberration and problematic. My hope (and it certainly isn't universal) to approximate my Cis self (had the cards been dealt differently) in every way and manor modern medicine can provide me with. So for me, personally, it seems rather bizarre to get to the point of SRS and elect for something that isn't really found organically. This is not a judgement of others. It is only my perspective and justification for decisions I've personally made, which right or wrong is what it is.
     Now the woman that doesn't care and see's it as an alternative to Orchi? Well...so be it. I can understand that. But I have a vested interest in my ability to be a functional woman in the most rudimentary and binary sense. YMMV

I agree Jessica. We all make different choices of course so this is only my personal opinion. I don't even know if I want SRS, I know for sure that I at least want an orchi but if I ever realize I need a vagina, I don't want to go through all that trouble just to get something that isn't functional, I would like to have the whole deal.

[AutumnLeaves]

Oh, I fully subscribe to the idea that gender is in our minds, not in our genitals.  Our brain defines our gender, absolutely.

But, how do other people define our gender?  For the vast majority of the world population, and especially the western world, they believe that genitals define gender.  And as much as we may try and be successful at gradually changing that perception, the reality is that it won't change fast enough for it to matter, at least not in our lifetimes. 

I passed as a woman completely, but it wasn't until after my SRS that my female cis friends fully accepted me into their inner circle. Sure, they were nice and friendly up until then, and still invited me to women's events, but it wasn't until I gave up my male genitals that they truly accepted me as one of their own.  There was a subtle but clear difference.

Unless you're going to be living in a LGBT bubble where all of your friends are trans, this is something you'll need to consider.  Cis people do care about genitals, a lot. For them, gender and genitals are inextricably linked.

I have to disagree with you there. Not sure what your experience is, but my cis friends and I don't get around to discussing my genitals much, and while some of them know vaguely I am trans, none of them has ever asked me for proof of surgery before accepting me as female. In the same vein, I have no idea what their genitalia are like; what makes them men or women, to me, is their identity and social presentation and the obvious secondary sexual characteristics they choose to emphasize. I am also involved in women's spirituality groups, and even among people who know my whole story I've never been treated differently and the issue of my genitals and their surgical change (or not) has never once arisen. I "pass" pretty well and have been told I "feel" like a woman energetically, and that seems to be the deciding factor.

Personally, if my platonic friends were obsessed with my genitals and declined to accept me as female until I had a certain degree of surgery, I would find new friends.

[SadieBlake]

Autumnleaves do you think all the same people would accept you, or have accepted you as readily as they do if you didn't pass? I don't pass and I can assure you that my relatively feminine demeanor in a non passable body cost me dearly in how people have treated me all my life. At most, 1% of the people I know accepted me as female before I came out as transitioning and people began to see the frank effects of HRT.

I think of it as "skin in the game" and yes more people women especially accepted me as female along the way but there was a huge change when people knew I was  going for GCS and even more so once I'd had it. And yes I live among a lot of highly evolved people but acceptance of someone known to be trans, let alone not passing as female is a huge ask for a lot of people. And honestly I can't be that choosy about my friends, simply some are more evolved than others.

While I absolutely represent that I've always been female, there's also the fact that people who knew me when my brain was testosterone dominant and when many of my coping mechanisms we're the ones I learned from having been socialized male, that's another barrier to acceptance.

So as echo7 said, I've also experienced that more people accept me as female knowing I'm post op. I didn't do it for that reason but it sure is a nice side benefit.

I could go on ad nauseum on flavors of acceptance that have to be combined with the wide variety if trans experiences and presentation, but let me say that my experiences aren't something you can really disagree with. You're welcome to have different interpretations of my experiences than I do -- queer theory for example pretty much says that's how it works.

[LeanneJanet]

Cosmetic vs full depth. Whatever surgery you opt for, an orchidectomy will happen, I had an orchidectomy three years ago and I am having a cosmetic in March '18. I lost all interest in sex, I have no sex drive at all, I still enjoy sex, I can still orgasm, I have anal sex and bf is happy with that. In my situation, I do not need full depth and my lifestyle will not change nor will my circumstances, what I want is a nice looking vulva and a better feeling of 'self'. I am so very happy...

[KathyLauren]

Cosmetic vs full depth. Whatever surgery you opt for, an orchidectomy will happen, I had an orchidectomy three years ago and I am having a cosmetic in March '18. I lost all interest in sex, I have no sex drive at all, I still enjoy sex, I can still orgasm, I have anal sex and bf is happy with that. In my situation, I do not need full depth and my lifestyle will not change nor will my circumstances, what I want is a nice looking vulva and a better feeling of 'self'. I am so very happy...

Hi, Leanne!

Welcome to Susan's.

Congratulations on having your surgery coming up soon, and good luck!

When I posted earlier in the thread, I was still on the fence about cosmetic vs. full-depth vaginoplasty.  Since then, after a few sessions with my therapist to discuss it, I have settled on the cosmetic version.  I have no need of a vagina in my life right now, or in the foreseeable future, and it doesn't form a major part of my self-image.  My self image includes having the proper external bits, but doesn't include a vagina any more than it does a uterus or ovaries.

It is possible in the unforeseeable future, that my wife might leave me, and that I might want to have another partner.  But, in that unlikely event, that hypothetical partner will have to put up with a lot of oddities about me: my deep voice, my broad shoulders, my receded hairline.  Lack of a vagina is simply one more.  She would either accept me as I am or I would not be interested.

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[epvanbeveren]

Hi, I am 4 months post-op and have limited depth vaginoplasty. Or cosmetic vagina as mentioned in the post title.

My personal experience is what I am sharing and each person is different of course.

Dr. Keelee MacPhee performed my surgery on October 4 2017 in Durham NC. Before the surgery date we had a great and detailed consultation. I have some concerns with the possible risks involved and this was one of the reasons I opted for the limited depth.

The vulva looks, feels and is identical as the full depth vaginoplasty. Even the clitoris is the same, with hood. So technically the only thing missing is the vagina canal. I have experienced orgasms but I am still learning how it works.

Pain isn't really an issue, sensitive yes. Although the amount of sensitive feelings greatly depends on my work load. (I work for the railroad as a carman, so it's not a light duty job) I am still on tight compression underwear to prevent swelling and aid in healing.

I can not compare my feelings to the full depth obviously, but I am pretty sure the vagina canal can be more sensitive, hence my doctor told me I choose the easy one.

I am very pleased with the outcome, it's defiantly helping on my dysphoria and I have no regrets on my choice.

Please don't hesitate to ask any questions you might have in regards to limited depth vaginoplasty or my surgeon. Both the OP as well as anyone else interested.

Hugs Erin

[KathyLauren]

Hi, Erin!

Welcome to Susan's.

Congratulations on your successful surgery, and thank you for contributing your valuable perspective!

Please feel free to stop by the Introductions forum to tell the members about yourself.  Here is some information that we like to share with new members:

Things that you should read

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By	Standard Terms & Definitions	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar)
Reputation rules	Cautionary Note	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy

[Anne Blake]

I will throw in my two cents worth. Four months ago I had a cosmetic GCS performed by Dr. Ley in Scottsdale AZ.. Both Drs. Ley & Meltzer suggest that there is not a major difference in the surgery time or complexity. The outward appearance is the same and recovery is a bit easier due to no dilation. The cost was about twenty percent less and the recovery center time was around three days shorter.

Even though it was a less intensive surgery, it still kicked my ass. It is not a minor surgery by any means.

I am continuing electrolysis (not required for the cosmetic surgery but my preference). My electrolysis  technit ion sees no visual difference between my vagina and others that she has worked on, either cis  or Trans.

No dilation has been a huge benefit for me!!!

I am turning 70 next week and am in a supportive relationship with my wife of 34 years, neither one of us has any interest in penetrative  sex.

Dr. Ley  told me that she has had very few patients voice regrets of their choice of cosmetic GCS surgery. She does say, that if I ever want a full depth vagina she can easily add it at a future time (grafted tissue).

At this point, four months in, both my wife and I a very happy with our choice.

Please pm me if you have any questions that I might help with.

Tia Anne

[BeverlyAnn]

If (and that's a big if) I ever get to the point of surgery at my age, I would opt for the cosmetic GCS.  However, in reading all the posts, I'm going to quote a friend of mine.  This person is partially disabled and an older person which, along with discussions with her wife, affects her choice of the cosmetic surgery. 

Several people tried to tell me why I was wrong in my choices, for various reasons. If your procedure worked for you, I'm very happy for you, but here's the thing:

This is NOT the bad old HBIGDA days. We are in WPATH 7 which has guidelines not requirements (although most doctors do not understand that).

We recognize non-binary genders. We recognize sexualities other than GLB. We recognize different types of relationships.

This is the same thing. These days, the patient gets to decide what Gender Confirming Surgeries they get and do not get, as long as there is sound medical and psychological basis for those choices. Surgeons may not do procedures for fetishists that they consider risky, but my choice is a sound choice.

[TR]

Hi "Cosmetic" to me is an ambiguous word... In my opinion many GRS surgeons do not make a good job in this area, full depth or not.. In my case, I have been told by my gender GP and Gender Specialist Surgeon that my outcome is not what they would call a normal GRS outcome or not what they would normally see as the outcome. But the big issue is, my Gender Surgeon in Australia would have cost much more $$$ than I could have afforded. So, I got what I paid for.. In reality, ironically surgeons in Australia and the US are cheaper than having your GRS done in Thailand... Its all to do with Insurance and the countries GDP, the cost of living. Basically Thailand surgeon do a lot better financially than many other surgeons around the world and they do not have expensive insurances. This is a very important fact. They might offer free post surgery if things are not quite right but its still not entry free and if there are big issues, you have no cause to proceed with legal options, whereas in the US or Australia, you do.. So my advise, if you can afford to and you are able to, have your GRS done in your own country. If you are thinking about GRS in Australia, and its in the future, take out private medical insurance since they will pay about half and you will have the peace of mind of knowing you are protected against any post opp issues. I guess we all live and learn.. In my case, the hard way...

Back to Cosmetic having it done in Thailand in most cases, for a start the vaginal opening can be far too low intruding into the Perineum area and appears to not be apart of the vagina, basically not close to a what most CIS females would have, and results can lack other details including the inner and outer vaginal lips or Labium Minus. The Clitoris can be exaggerated and hard post opp surgery but often settles down after a year.. The Prepuce Clitoris skins is missing too..

A big benefit with going Cosmetic, meaning with no depth to the vaginal opening, is the big issue of ingrown hair. Just about impossible to deal with post opp. Therefore, precautions need to be taken to avoid this big issue if going for full depth vagina.

One thing is certain. DO NOT TAKE ANY NOTICE OF SOME WEB SITE PHOTOS.. Often they are not real.. They lead you into a false since of outcomes.. Also, be ware of those who are bias, basically have a foot in their door and suggest they are the best of the best.. There is an old saying.. "Buyer be ware!" Its your body.. Its your very hard earned money, which is passed over far too quickly and often in CASH!.. You really need to hear from others who have had surgery done, no matter what surgeon or what country they have had their GRS done.. There are even some not so great outcome in Australia. and the USA.. but partially Thailand. So all you sisters out there, be careful....!!

TR...