Non-Operative TS

[Kate]

I understand the negative feelings towards ->-bleeped-<-s shown on this thread, but Kalt has asked for our help in exploring her identity and sexuality. I hope we can set aside our personal feelings and opinions enough to help her out, rather than make her feel badly about herself.

~Kate~

[Keira]

Kate, there is no good way of defining she-male since the term is so closely associated with
the porn industry. We're not the one that have defined this way. Considering the negative semantic
hole this term is in, I'd doubt it can be rehabilitated as a person's positive attribute.

Non-op for me doesn't define intent for me (though it does for others seemingly), simply a current state that may or may not change in the future. As for pre-op, it has a feeling of process, and
going somewhere and intent that doesn't go well will the confused and the people will less somatic dysphoria.

In all, I wonder if any terms are really needed to define the genital's configurations.
If someone is living life as a women, she's living life as a women and maybe non-op TS is
the closest defining term (since for me non-op has no value assessment for me, its merely
descriptive).

[joannatsf]

Kate, there is no good way of defining she-male since the term is so closely associated with
the porn industry. We're not the one that have defined this way. Considering the negative semantic
hole this term is in, I'd doubt it can be rehabilitated as a person's positive attribute.

Non-op for me doesn't define intent for me (though it does for others seemingly), simply a current state that may or may not change in the future. As for pre-op, it has a feeling of process, and
going somewhere and intent that doesn't go well will the confused and the people will less somatic dysphoria.

In all, I wonder if any terms are really needed to define the genital's configurations.
If someone is living life as a women, she's living life as a women and maybe non-op TS is
the closest defining term (since for me non-op has no value assessment for me, its merely
descriptive).

It's just a word.  Consider it a pejoritive if you like but why so much concern about it?  The meaning of words changes over time.  I could not have imagined 1980 that "queer" would by 1990 have lost it's value as an insult.  Our disdain is what gives the word "->-bleeped-<-" its power to offend.

Porography is something everyone loates but most watch.  Like most other art forms 99% of it is krap, but that 1%...  I used to hold to hold it in disdain until I met a porn actress/model.  She is a very smart, very kind and will do what it takes to promote her art work.  Needles to say she's very sex positive and a feminist, too.

[Keira]

Queer was never as pejorative as she-male.
And even when it was pejorative, its meaning was not only associated with gays,
queer had a broader meaning initially.
Words to have meanings for a reason; communcation.
If you want to use one against type I've got nothing against,
but be ready for a lot of mis-communication when talking to others.

[joannatsf]

in 1980 in the Los Angeles area (Isn't LA a culture center?  All that movie biz and stuff?) queer was synonomous with ->-bleeped-<-.  Obviously ->-bleeped-<- get's a rise out of you   But other transgender people wear it with pride.  At least until they've had political reducation.

[Kate]

Kate, there is no good way of defining she-male since the term is so closely associated with the porn industry.

Oh I know it... but I don't want Kalt to feel like we're saying SHE is disgusting or whatever. She asked for help. I don't know if telling her how grossed out we are, and protesting how WE aren't "one of those people" is helping her.

~Kate~

[Keira]

Oh give me a break Clair de Lune, nobody I know WEAR IT WITH PRIDE in my neck of the wood, or in the immediate vicinity and Montreal has a pretty big T comminity and I've been involved with it since early 90's!!! At most its a regional term in a minority of the T community (if at all).

[NicholeW.]

Kalt, who you are and how you manage that is the important aspect of your question. Doctors do say that maintaining the penis is an important aspect of SRS, at least in regard to having enough tissue & to having it in good condition for the surgery. Elasticity is a positive thing for depth and post-srs elasticity. How you do or do not do that is strictly up to you.

If someone else has a problem with what and how you are doing what you are doing, it's just that. Their problem.

Your self-definition is also yours to have and hold as you see fit. Those are all items that the rest of us may have feelings about, but not a one of us lives your life or makes your decisions for you. That's the beauty of having separate lives.

However you choose to manage your affairs are, I'm certain, quite valid. As noted above, surgeons do recommend such practices prior to srs. Whether or not they make a difference, are prejudiced notions by male-physicians or just nonsense, I have no idea. 

Best of fortune in your quest to achieve your own answers to living your life in a way that leads to your success and fulfillment.

Nichole

[kalt]

Kate, there is no good way of defining she-male since the term is so closely associated with
the porn industry.

Mmhmm, so are females.  But, I think they're pretty well defined.
"->-bleeped-<-" is nothing but a slang term that some people glorify in and other people despise.
If people want to sit back and call any non-operative transsexual a ->-bleeped-<- then they can do so, but it doesn't mean that they are correct.  "->-bleeped-<-" is a term that was started in the porn industry and should stay in the porn industry.  I think that people shouldn't be so harsh on them either, the ones in the porn industry.  Looking at it from their point of view, feelings of gender confusion can lead to life situations and mental states that take a toll on a person's mental health and judgment.  I feel rather sorry for people who've been through so much in life that they feel the need to take pride in being a freak.  And yes, I think that ->-bleeped-<-s are freakish in that they destroy the beauty of a female.  In no way do I consider a non-op transsexual a freak.  But, those poor people have been through so much.  There's always a market for any good looking girl with her thing still to pose for, and some people just get too much into it maybe.  I know quite a few that are mentally stable and happy, however.

Non-op for me doesn't define intent for me (though it does for others seemingly), simply a current state that may or may not change in the future.

And that's exactly right.  I know quite a few and most have full plans to do something about in the future, but simply have no desire to at the present time.

In all, I wonder if any terms are really needed to define the genital's configurations.
If someone is living life as a women, she's living life as a women and maybe non-op TS is
the closest defining term (since for me non-op has no value assessment for me, its merely
descriptive).

Thank you for understanding.


Non-Op transsexual isn't just a purely MtF thing either.  Working in a gym I know about half of the elite female bikers have no chest at all.  Some of them rep out pullups and heavy weights better than the guys do, without steroids.  They look pretty masculine.  I don't see how they're any different in body from a FtM that decided not to transition.  It's not a one way street, it's just always been socially more acceptable for a girl to put on a pair of jeans than a guy to put on lace and mascara.

[Steph]

Oh give me a break Clair de Lune, nobody I know WEAR IT WITH PRIDE in my neck of the wood, or in the immediate vicinity and Montreal has a pretty big T comminity and I've been involved with it since early 90's!!! At most its a regional term in a minority of the T community (if at all).

And that's where the problem is - "Nobody you know".  I would offer that there are in fact folks who do wear it with pride, whether we find it a disgusting term or not.  Just because some here find the term disgusting doesn't make it so.  There are some out there who find transsexuals disgusting, but we know better don't we.

Steph

[Keira]

Steph, as I said, I've been around the TS, CD and T community in montreal a LONG TIME,
more than 15 years. I actually said that my answer was REGIONAL.
When I say, nobody I know, I'm not talking about close friends. Its not like if people
self-identifying as such could be a secret I would never hear about (unless its only something
done by a small minority of street trans (which I know less about. But, I do know a few)).

As I said, it might be some people do call themselves like that (instead of being called that way
by others); but not around this area. I won"t vouch for LA, NYC or anywhere else
since I don't know those areas.

[Valentina]

I think the ire is raising because peeps are confusing two very different terms: non-operative transsexual and she-male.  They are not the same & shoudn't be used interchangeably to avoid confusion.


Most trans men don't get genital reconstruction. Even if they can afford it and have no medical reason they couldn't, many are waiting in hopes that better surgical options may be developed.  That doesn't make them less than men.

And some peeps just don't want it. It's a major surgery. It costs the earth, it's extremely painful, and it carries risks like any surgery. Some people decide it's not worth it. It's not like surgical reconstruction (for trans people or anyone else) *makes* one who one is;  a trans woman is a woman, a trans man a man, regardless of their anatomy at any given moment. Options for physical alteration (including but not limited to surgery) just improve quality of life. If someone decides the risks are too great or the probable outcome unsatisfactory, that's their perogative.  That's what the term non-op means, not to be confused with the term she-male because of the stigma "she-male" carries.

[joannatsf]

Oh give me a break Clair de Lune, nobody I know WEAR IT WITH PRIDE in my neck of the wood, or in the immediate vicinity and Montreal has a pretty big T comminity and I've been involved with it since early 90's!!! At most its a regional term in a minority of the T community (if at all).

Well, I know a few.   It's not a term I would use to describe myself or have others use for me, but that's beside the point.  I'm not willing to pass judgement on them.  I'm a functioning professional woman that happens to be non-op yet I get the since that some see me as less than because of my anatomical status.  That's what bothers me most about this entire thread.  I'm not Christian but I think the words of Jesus apply here; "judge not lest ye be judged".

I have a good friend that lives in Montreal that is woman in transition.  I had a long discussion with her about the use of the word queer in describing the LGBTI community.

With that, I'm done with this thread.  Stay warm, Keira!

[Keira]

You're not in this thread Clair de Lune, but I never said anything about Non-Op, the opposite, non-op means what it means. Not operated on, nothing more. If one TS that actually wears the term She-male with pride exists please direct me to that or those person so I can educate myself. Until then, this mythical person is just an abstraction used as a rhetorical device.

[cindybc]

Hi, Valentina,
Finally someone gets the picture! 

I have no qualms about whoever wants to be whatever but we are who are TSs are dead serious about our desire to be as close to natal women as we can be and what we need and want to accomplish.  We will not be at peace until it's all done, HRT and GRS.

And yes, in my opinion ,if a pre-op who has not had the surgery because of finances or health problems that preclude surgery but still desire it, I would say is as much transsexual, F - M or M - F as I am,  and I am a post-op.  Any pre-op, regardless of how they gather the money needed for their GRS would be welcome in my home. 

Yes it is true that some trans people are sex workers who work the streets to pay for their surgery.  There was a non-op member here on this thread who incidentally appears to have vanished. She was unable get surgery on the account of some medical reason or another. That made sense until the label *non-op* was turned into a three ring circus.

Cindy

[joannatsf]

I think the ire is raising because peeps are confusing two very different terms: non-operative transsexual and she-male.  They are not the same & shoudn't be used interchangeably to avoid confusion.


Most trans men don't get genital reconstruction. Even if they can afford it and have no medical reason they couldn't, many are waiting in hopes that better surgical options may be developed.  That doesn't make them less than men.

And some peeps just don't want it. It's a major surgery. It costs the earth, it's extremely painful, and it carries risks like any surgery. Some people decide it's not worth it. It's not like surgical reconstruction (for trans people or anyone else) *makes* one who one is;  a trans woman is a woman, a trans man a man, regardless of their anatomy at any given moment. Options for physical alteration (including but not limited to surgery) just improve quality of life. If someone decides the risks are too great or the probable outcome unsatisfactory, that's their perogative.  That's what the term non-op means, not to be confused with the term she-male because of the stigma "she-male" carries.

Halleluja!

[Kate]

we are who are TSs are dead serious about our desire to be as close to natal women as we can be...

If a non-passing person doesn't desire FFS, are they then not a transsexual?

~Kate~

[shanetastic]

we are who are TSs are dead serious about our desire to be as close to natal women as we can be...

If a non-passing person doesn't desire FFS, are they then not a transsexual?

~Kate~

Doesn't mean anything besides their content with who they are probably.

[Wing Walker]

Kate, there is no good way of defining she-male since the term is so closely associated with
the porn industry.

Mmhmm, so are females.  But, I think they're pretty well defined.

Yes, they are, and they don't have penises and cannot possibly be confused with a "chick with a dick." 

Quote
"->-bleeped-<-" is nothing but a slang term that some people glorify in and other people despise.
If people want to sit back and call any non-operative transsexual a ->-bleeped-<- then they can do so, but it doesn't mean that they are correct.

Question
And so are other terms that are disparaging of race, ethnicity, religion, economic status.  Such terms are slang but they are also pejorative and offensive.

Quotation
  "->-bleeped-<-" is a term that was started in the porn industry and should stay in the porn industry.  I think that people shouldn't be so harsh on them either, the ones in the porn industry.  Looking at it from their point of view, feelings of gender confusion can lead to life situations and mental states that take a toll on a person's mental health and judgment.  I feel rather sorry for people who've been through so much in life that they feel the need to take pride in being a freak.  And yes, I think that ->-bleeped-<-s are freakish in that they destroy the beauty of a female. 

Question
Is there any objective evidence of the how "->-bleeped-<-s"  got into the porno industry?  Are they doing their work unpaid or under duress?  There is an assertion of gender confuaion on the part of "->-bleeped-<-s."  Is there any objective, or even reliable anecdotal evidence of their gender confusion? 

Quotation
In no way do I consider a non-op transsexual a freak.  But, those poor people have been through so much.  There's always a market for any good looking girl with her thing still to pose for, and some people just get too much into it maybe.  I know quite a few that are mentally stable and happy, however.

Question
Is this from a personal knowledge of these people?  Why are they non-op?  Where is the objective evidence of the assertions in the preceding paragraph?

Non-op for me doesn't define intent for me (though it does for others seemingly), simply a current state that may or may not change in the future.

And that's exactly right.  I know quite a few and most have full plans to do something about in the future, but simply have no desire to at the present time.

Question
The prior two sentences are confusing the state of being pre-op with non-op.  Is this a personal knowledge, on the web, or third-hand? 

Quote
How can the term "->-bleeped-<-" or "non-op" transsexual be applied to those who for whatever reason desire to have GRS but cannot yet find a way to have it done?  Can we look into their heads and see objectively that they are

In all, I wonder if any terms are really needed to define the genital's configurations.
If someone is living life as a women, she's living life as a women and maybe non-op TS is
the closest defining term (since for me non-op has no value assessment for me, its merely
descriptive).

Thank you for understanding.

Quote
Non-Op transsexual isn't just a purely MtF thing either.  Working in a gym I know about half of the elite female bikers have no chest at all.  Some of them rep out pullups and heavy weights better than the guys do, without steroids.  They look pretty masculine.  I don't see how they're any different in body from a FtM that decided not to transition.  It's not a one way street, it's just always been socially more acceptable for a girl to put on a pair of jeans than a guy to put on lace and mascara.

Women who are body builders are unquestionably women.  How are they in any way comparable to F to M men?  The foregoing paragraph does not state that these women are binding their breasts and seeking in any way to change their inner or outer genital organs.

There is a difference between living life as a transsexual person and a "chick with a dick" or "she male."  It goes well beyond outward appearances and being a "lifestyler."  It's the difference between being a paintball-shooting "weekend warrior" and a Marine serving in Iraq.  Those Marines appreciate how deeply commitment to an ideal goes.


Posted on: January 05, 2008, 07:38:18 PM

we are who are TSs are dead serious about our desire to be as close to natal women as we can be...

If a non-passing person doesn't desire FFS, are they then not a transsexual?

~Kate~

Is gender defined solely by facial features?

Wing Walker

[joannatsf]

There is a difference between living life as a transsexual person and a "chick with a dick" or "she male."  It goes well beyond outward appearances and being a "lifestyler."  It's the difference between being a paintball-shooting "weekend warrior" and a Marine serving in Iraq.  Those Marines appreciate how deeply commitment to an ideal goes.

Didn't you say the same thing on Genderlife yesterday?