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MtF loss of "male privilege"

Started by SashaHyde, February 27, 2018, 12:28:11 AM

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Charlie Nicki

Quote from: Aspiringperson on February 27, 2018, 09:32:10 AM
I had always felt... by personal observation... that females had the real privilege, sure, males wielded muscle, social status in sports and other male dominated interests but it was the female that could convince a male to do most things her way....   

Absolutely agree.
Latina :) I speak Spanish, English and a bit of Portuguese.
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Tamika Olivia

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on February 28, 2018, 10:46:16 AM
Absolutely agree.
Oh no, y'all, that isn't privilege or power. It's old school sexism and objectification in the guise of power. Disparities in the heights of power, inequality in pay, reproductive rights, epidemic physical and sexual violence against women... none of these are solved by using feminine wiles to entrance men. That's a squirt gun that's being passed off as a nuke.

Moreover, that line of thinking is often exploited by men to justify horrible treatment of women.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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Tessa James

Quote from: Tamika Olivia on February 28, 2018, 08:13:32 AM
TW: Mentions of sexual violence

The problem with this question is that privilege, and the marginalization that's it's opposite side of the coin, are largely systemic. I may feel echoes in my own life, like mansplaining or sexual harassment, but the largest part is in how I relate to systems of the world.

Before I transitioned, every single president of the US was the same gender that I was presenting. 80 percent of Congress at the time was presenting male. All but 4 of the supreme court justices. Every single CEO of the company I worked for, and the CEOs of most other companies. Most of the directors who made the movies I watched. And the heroes in those movies. The sports heroes other people talked about and the coaches of their teams. They wielded more power, more influence, and more money over the systems that make up my life. And they ran the systems in such a way that benefited thenselves and people like them, which included me until my transition.

If you want some examples, they're easy to come up with. How many of you who transitioned to female feel safer walking alone at night? I'd wager not many. That sense of safety male presenting people feel when walking alone is borne from the fact that men are much less likely to be targets of sexual violence. A systemic issue. Or look at STEM. Studies show that at early age there is no gender difference in performance on STEM related tasks. That difference only emerges when kids are raised to internalize the belief that boys are better at science and math. Women who run for office are more often confronted with questions, concerns, and assumptions that don't fall on their male counterparts. Women's reproductive rights are more constrained and debated.

And that's not even getting into intersections. Wage gaps get worse for women of color, as do rates of violence against them. I never had anyone care about where I needed to pee, much less legislate where I can, until I began to transition.

Privileges exist. And if you've transitioned to female, you've lost some of them, even if you cannot articulate exactly how on a day to day.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Thank you Tamika and others for acknowledging the reality of male privilege.  Being able to appreciate a feminist perspective may require some introspection and perhaps an uncomfortable awareness of systemic and political reality.  As a political activist and elected official and sitting on several boards it is clear to me that equitable representation is far off if changing.  I can point to several personal experiences such as buying a car where I was encouraged to coax my husband (actually a male friend) into accepting my choice and helping me understand a motor.  The salesmen assumed I was less knowledgable and would use my charms to persuade my less willing non spouse.  We thought it was funny at the time but is a simple example of sexism and male privilege.  When I lived and worked as a male anesthetist I could walk into a patient room with another female anesthetist, who was technically my supervisor, and I would often be treated with deference as the more knowledgable provider.  Men clearly treat me differently with mansplaining, over speaking and interrupting me in personal conversations and meetings.  This is one reason I have deliberately maintained my original voice as I use that projection and timber to keep their attention.  People now feel much more comfortable commenting on my appearance and clothing and I am sometimes described as a shrill bitch rather that a passionate leader.
    Transitioning started for me over 5 years ago and was accompanied by much hand wringing about my new vulnerability as a woman who surely could no longer walk alone at night to the corner store.  I have indeed felt more exposure to unhealthy interests from some men and have adopted behaviors well known to women at risk.  My transition was accompanied by joking from many friends who seemed to assume I was now a ->-bleeped-<- hag who should hang out in the kitchen rather than a strong queer activist.
   Women are clearly the more frequent victims and survivors of sexual assault and domestic violence and for goodness sake, we of all people need to be aware of the targeting and murder of our sisters.  I am a strong and capable person and do not equate physical prowess with getting real work done.  Nonetheless I have definitely felt a diminishing respect for my abilities and have too often heard similar concerns from cis and trans women alike. 
    Yes, white male privilege is very real and was once mine and I would often be singled out as the "man" in a group of women, that I primarily worked with, to take charge and be some kind of leader for meetings with administration.  I work much harder now and am very happy to see more women taking leadership roles in political and educational arenas.  Empowering ourselves with equal rights, equity, diversity and inclusion will not be freely bestowed but worked for and that takes acknowledgment of where we are now.  This is not a level playing field yet.
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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AnnMarie2017

#23
I've made it a rule not to discuss politics on-line anymore. In my experience, people's minds are rarely swayed by argument; and hurt feelings and outrage seem to be common.

This is a subject many women feel passionately about. I appreciate that; I even think I understand why, and sympathize. Nevertheless, passion and pain do not make truth; indeed, more often they make lies and chaos.

The idea of there being a "system" of male privilege is as fallacious as the idea that there is a health care "system" that can be reformed. In both cases, there simply is no "system." A true system is intentionally created to perform a set of tasks; what is being here called a system is merely a conceptual frame superimposed upon observed phenomena for which there is no demonstrable motivating force or unifying principle -- but these things are *assumed* to exist, in the act of calling them a "system." By calling them a "system," motive is *assumed* without being proven, and then the "system" is attacked on that basis.

In addition, perception is selective. In the case of people who have been wounded, it is especially selective. True objectivity is impossible to begin with; and the more emotionally involved the observer is, the more likely their observations will be tainted with confirmation bias. One of the less subtle examples of this is the fact that, in discussions of male privilege, the reality of female privilege is almost always completely ignored.

Furthermore, it is never acknowledged that "privilege" is about preference for things of value, and value is relative. Early in the history of feminism, women who agitated for equality in career potential were aghast that a number of their female contemporaries simply did not value what they were fighting for and were happy and content to stay at home and be homemakers, wives and mothers. I remember that there was some resentment toward these women, as though they were "undermining the cause." But it was simply a question of value. If you see going to work every day and slogging it out with competitors, working for an unpleasant boss or company, is not worth the money or the sacrifices you would have to make for them, then you might rather pity your husband than envy him. For such a woman, it is a non sequitur to cast her husband's preferences as "privilege." Preference for a detriment is not "privilege."

What's really going on with so-called male privilege is cultural, and is too deep to be reformed from the top-down. If you try to reform it from the top-down, you will not create: you will destroy. You do not make people better by forcing them to be good; you make people better by inspiring them to be good. Laws, rules, public disapproval -- these things merely force bad behavior underground, where it festers until it explodes and does even more damage.

There's a beautiful line in the Melanie Griffith film, "A Stranger Among Us" (1982), in which Griffith plays a policewoman who goes undercover in a Hasidic community. As you can imagine, culture shock, on both sides, is a major component of the plot. There is a conversation between Griffith's character, Emily, and Mia Sara's, Leah, the grown daughter of the community's rabbi, that ends like this:

Emily: What do you want to be when you grow up, Leah?
Leah: A wife, a mother.
Emily: That's it?
Leah: But, Emily, what could be more important?

Like it or not, convenient or not, this is a valid point of view, and it has its own beauty. To a woman with these values, discussions of male privilege are meaningless, even false. The point I'm making is, whether male privilege exists or not, is a problem or not, depends on what you value, and what you value is a subjective choice, not an objective fact.

As it is used, "male privilege" is a thought-weapon; and, like accusations of "racism," regardless of the user's individual intent, is used to cow males, to make them introspect, hesitate, yield ... all to assuage a sense of guilt imposed upon them by their accusers. Just as White people have been made afraid to act and speak in venues where Black people are concerned, now males are being made afraid to act and speak in venues where women are concerned.

This is a poisonous, destructive meme. Unfortunately, I do not think it will go away without first causing a great deal more conflict, destruction and pain.

EDIT: I just had a "Eureka!" moment. I think I saw something about the etiology of this phenomenon. I'll just throw it out there.

There's another line in the film, in a conversation between Emily and Ariel, the rabbi's son, in which he comments that the Kabbalah says that women are on a higher spiritual plane than men. Now, before the feminists start crying that I'm putting women on a pedestal ... that's not the point. The point is the relationship between form and function.

Some people believe gender is not innate; some people believe it is, but gender roles are culturally determined, artificial and relative. But if gender *is* innate, and if there is purpose to our existence, then it must follow that there are certain aspects of gender roles that are also innate and deeper than culture.

Throughout recorded history, men, the gender with political power, has found inspiration in woman. Before recorded history, women were the civilizing force for mankind. Desire for woman motivates man.

As I mentioned, you do not make people better by forcing them to be good, but by inspiring them to be good. The alternatives are force and desire: male power and female allure. We women are the inspiration, and, to be the inspiration, we must be weak, relative to males. Goodness, spiritual becoming, must be freely chosen; and, this can only occur in the absence of threat. By being weaker, we become vessels of transformation for man.

The flip-side of this are the problems mentioned in this thread: being overshadowed, feeling threatened in public venues, being disregarded and dismissed ... These things are possible because of our role in the spiritual progress of mankind. Man chooses to abuse our weakness in pursuit of power, or to use our weakness as a means of his own spiritual advancement.

This is our gift, and our burden. The two are inextricably intertwined. You cannot have one without the other. By trying to unravel this relationship, feminism is unraveling the cords that hold the human race together on its path to enlightenment.
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PollyQMcLovely

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kitchentablepotpourri

Why do so many people on this forum write so technical, and formal; it's like reading a manual!  Loosen up people, and have a little fun! 😀
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Colleen_definitely

Many of us are enginerds, scientists, and lawyers.  Fun writing has been beaten out of us by years of study and work.
As our ashes turn to dust, we shine like stars...
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Cassi

Quote from: kitchentablepotpourri on February 28, 2018, 07:57:30 PM
Why do so many people on this forum write so technical, and formal; it's like reading a manual!  Loosen up people, and have a little fun! 😀

Aha, I'm Chopped Liver and I'm loose as a goose the day after Christmas!
HRT since 1/04/2018
  •  

Tamika Olivia

Quote from: AnnMarie2017 on February 28, 2018, 07:20:14 PM
I've made it a rule not to discuss politics on-line anymore. In my experience, people's minds are rarely swayed by argument; and hurt feelings and outrage seem to be common.

This is a subject many women feel passionately about. I appreciate that; I even think I understand why, and sympathize. Nevertheless, passion and pain do not make truth; indeed, more often they make lies and chaos.

The idea of there being a "system" of male privilege is as fallacious as the idea that there is a health care "system" that can be reformed. In both cases, there simply is no "system." A true system is intentionally created to perform a set of tasks; what is being here called a system is merely a conceptual frame superimposed upon observed phenomena for which there is no demonstrable motivating force or unifying principle -- but these things are *assumed* to exist, in the act of calling them a "system." By calling them a "system," motive is *assumed* without being proven, and then the "system" is attacked on that basis.

In addition, perception is selective. In the case of people who have been wounded, it is especially selective. True objectivity is impossible to begin with; and the more emotionally involved the observer is, the more likely their observations will be tainted with confirmation bias. One of the less subtle examples of this is the fact that, in discussions of male privilege, the reality of female privilege is almost always completely ignored.

Furthermore, it is never acknowledged that "privilege" is about preference for things of value, and value is relative. Early in the history of feminism, women who agitated for equality in career potential were aghast that a number of their female contemporaries simply did not value what they were fighting for and were happy and content to stay at home and be homemakers, wives and mothers. I remember that there was some resentment toward these women, as though they were "undermining the cause." But it was simply a question of value. If you see going to work every day and slogging it out with competitors, working for an unpleasant boss or company, is not worth the money or the sacrifices you would have to make for them, then you might rather pity your husband than envy him. For such a woman, it is a non sequitur to cast her husband's preferences as "privilege." Preference for a detriment is not "privilege."

What's really going on with so-called male privilege is cultural, and is too deep to be reformed from the top-down. If you try to reform it from the top-down, you will not create: you will destroy. You do not make people better by forcing them to be good; you make people better by inspiring them to be good. Laws, rules, public disapproval -- these things merely force bad behavior underground, where it festers until it explodes and does even more damage.

There's a beautiful line in the Melanie Griffith film, "A Stranger Among Us" (1982), in which Griffith plays a policewoman who goes undercover in a Hasidic community. As you can imagine, culture shock, on both sides, is a major component of the plot. There is a conversation between Griffith's character, Emily, and Mia Sara's, Leah, the grown daughter of the community's rabbi, that ends like this:

Emily: What do you want to be when you grow up, Leah?
Leah: A wife, a mother.
Emily: That's it?
Leah: But, Emily, what could be more important?

Like it or not, convenient or not, this is a valid point of view, and it has its own beauty. To a woman with these values, discussions of male privilege are meaningless, even false. The point I'm making is, whether male privilege exists or not, is a problem or not, depends on what you value, and what you value is a subjective choice, not an objective fact.

As it is used, "male privilege" is a thought-weapon; and, like accusations of "racism," regardless of the user's individual intent, is used to cow males, to make them introspect, hesitate, yield ... all to assuage a sense of guilt imposed upon them by their accusers. Just as White people have been made afraid to act and speak in venues where Black people are concerned, now males are being made afraid to act and speak in venues where women are concerned.

This is a poisonous, destructive meme. Unfortunately, I do not think it will go away without first causing a great deal more conflict, destruction and pain.

So... as you might imagine from my previous posts, I pretty much disagree with nearly everything you've said here. The one exception being the part about arguments online rarely changing minds. That I do agree with.

So, with that in mind, I'm not going to take the mental effort needed to discuss point by point, but I'm going to make a few general arguments for those on the outside, who may wish to consider this argument.

Systems exist, and you can see their fingerprints everywhere. I've listed the hallmarks of the patriarchy in my previous posts if anyone wants to refresh. You can choose to define them out of existence in your mind, but in reality they keep chugging. Political inequality and workplace harassment are not going to be defined out of existence. They are a problem, on a societal level, without reference to personal opinions. They damage the wellbeing of the whole.

The basis of a lawful society is that certain rules and regulations serve useful purpose, even if they cannot be 100 percent effective. Creating laws against sexual harassment and enforcing these laws is not going to stop sexual harassment entirely, but it does lessen it and provide mechanisms of redress if it does happen. It informs social mores, providing even more pressure to stop the behavior. Over time those laws solidify, and become part of the fabric of a society. A few hundred years ago, it was common practice to own human beings as chattel. Then there was a war and laws were passed. Now, barring the prison system, the idea of chattel slavery is morally repugnant. If you don't believe that good can be brought about by laws, social censure, and enforcement, then I'm not sure what you believe government is in existence for.

As for the idea that discussions of misogyny and racism are used as silencing tacitics... I find the notion toxic. Those in positions of privilege should be made aware of their participation in structures of oppression. That's because they (Or we, at some of my privileged intersections) are the ones that are benefiting, and they/we are the ones with the greatest power to change. To be honest, this sounds of a mind with the belief that being called a racist is as bad as experiencing racism. As trans folx, we should see the absurdity of that notion on the face.

And again, the one point I do agree on is that internet arguments rarely change opinions. I doubt anything I've said has wedged your needle, and I'm really not interested in pursuing a path to a nonexistent middle ground. If you want to respond, feel free, but I likely won't engage with you on this subject again.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
  •  

Tamika Olivia

Quote from: kitchentablepotpourri on February 28, 2018, 07:57:30 PM
Why do so many people on this forum write so technical, and formal; it's like reading a manual!  Loosen up people, and have a little fun! [emoji3]
Writing like I do is fun, for me at least... If it helps, this is also how I talk.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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Cassi

Quote from: Tamika Olivia on February 28, 2018, 08:44:07 PM
Writing like I do is fun, for me at least... If it helps, this is also how I talk.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

OMG!!!!

You talk with words???????????????????????????????????/
HRT since 1/04/2018
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Tamika Olivia

Quote from: Cassi on February 28, 2018, 08:45:47 PM
OMG!!!!

You talk with words???????????????????????????????????/
I was thinking more of idiosyncratic turns of phrase  (some of which I just make up) an expansive legalistic vocabulary, a focus on clarity and refining what i want to say before saying it, and excessive elaboration. But yes, also with words. Also gestures!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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Northern Star Girl

Quote from: kitchentablepotpourri on February 28, 2018, 07:57:30 PM
Why do so many people on this forum write so technical, and formal; it's like reading a manual!  Loosen up people, and have a little fun! 😀

@ kitchentablepotpourri:   Hey, I am all for fun and playful writing but there is a time for clarity and precision in conveying thoughts, responses and ideas via the written word.
   I am getting tired of seeing personal correspondence come my way either in snail-mail, email, or text that exhibits sloppy writing skills or no writing skills at all. 
   In my opinion, this problem has accelerated since the computer and cell phone age in the last two decades with the advent of email and texting. 
   In my recent past jobs I assisted the HR department in sorting out incoming job applications for my department and I prioritized the submitted introduction letters and essay portions of the job applications.  So many of these people were writing and composing sentences and letters at what appeared to be much less than a high school level.  The applications were chuck full of spelling errors, grammar errors, punctuation errors and sentence construction errors, and as a result all clarity and conveyance of pertinent information was just about lost along with a lost job opportunity.
   Unfortunately this sad state of affairs is seemingly the norm in the modern cyberspace age and there are no signs of it getting any better.

*****  OK, I have said my piece, now back to having fun!!!
:) :D  :icon_dance: :icon_hover-alien: :icon_geekdance::o ::) :-* >:-) :laugh: :icon_ballbounce: :eusa_dance:

Aspiringperson... now back in "fun" mode
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I started HRT March 2015 and
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  •  

kitchentablepotpourri

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on February 28, 2018, 08:13:21 PM
Many of us are enginerds, scientists, and lawyers.  Fun writing has been beaten out of us by years of study and work.
I know plenty of those types who aren't afraid to let their hair down; enginerds, scientists, and lawyers, oh my 👀
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ChrissyRyan

Quote from: Aspiringperson on February 28, 2018, 09:26:50 PM
@ kitchentablepotpourri:   Hey, I am all for fun and playful writing but there is a time for clarity and precision in conveying thoughts, responses and ideas via the written word.
   I am getting tired of seeing personal correspondence come my way either in snail-mail, email, or text that exhibits sloppy writing skills or no writing skills at all. 
   In my opinion, this problem has accelerated since the computer and cell phone age in the last two decades with the advent of email and texting. 
   In my recent past jobs I assisted the HR department in sorting out incoming job applications for my department and I prioritized the submitted introduction letters and essay portions of the job applications.  So many of these people were writing and composing sentences and letters at what appeared to be much less than a high school level.  The applications were chuck full of spelling errors, grammar errors, punctuation errors and sentence construction errors and as a result all clarity and conveyance of pertinent information was just about lost along with a lost job opportunity.
   Unfortunately this sad state of affairs is seemingly the norm in the modern cyberspace age and there are no signs of it getting any better.

*****  OK, I have said my piece, now back to having fun!!!
[/b][/font] :) :D  :icon_dance: :icon_hover-alien: :icon_geekdance::o ::) :-* >:-) :laugh: :icon_ballbounce: :eusa_dance:

Aspiringperson... now in "fun" mode



There are some good points made above.

I agree that there should be clarity, along with the expected accuracy, precision, civility, and formality with written communication.  Expectation levels do differ, as do styles.

I have taken some time to think about how useful these forums can be and I am glad that they are here.   Yes, we can and should have some fun!   :)    :)     The clock says that it is fun time!

Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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Northern Star Girl

Back to the topic of this thread:

   In my opinion, male privilege can be over-exaggerated to the point that if a female looking for an issue dealing with males then they will somehow find it even if it hardly exists.  The same can hold true for a male dealing with a female.

   For certain there are men that treat women with disdain and even violence. Since I have gone full time I have personally had to deal with some of this to a small extent.
 
   In my small business I have male clients that respect my opinions, and other males not so much.  By the same token I have dealt with females that felt that they wanted a man's opinion about certain aspects that my business handles.

   There are women-haters and there are man-haters so I guess that it can go both ways.

Aspiringperson
****Help support this website by:
Subscribing !     and/or by    Donating !

❤️❤️❤️  Check out my Personal Blog Threads below
to read more details about me and my life.
  ❤️❤️❤️
             (Click Links below):  [Oldest first]
  Aspiringperson is now Alaskan Danielle    
           I am the Hunted Prey : Danielle's Chronicles    
                  A New Chapter: Alaskan Danielle's Chronicles    
                             Danielle's Continuing Life Adventures
I started HRT March 2015 and
I've been Full-Time since December 2016.
I love living in a small town in Alaska
I am 45 years old and Single

        Email:  --->  alaskandanielle@
                             yahoo.com
  •  

Cassi

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on February 28, 2018, 09:58:07 PM


There are some good points made above.

I agree that there should be clarity, along with the expected accuracy, precision, civility, and formality with written communication.  Expectation levels do differ, as do styles.

I have taken some time to think about how useful these forums can be and I am glad that they are here.   Yes, we can and should have some fun!   :)    :)     The clock says that it is fun time!

Chrissy

And with that said, in the words of the famous Frankie Vallie "Big Girls Don't Cry"..............................
HRT since 1/04/2018
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kitchentablepotpourri

Quote from: Tamika Olivia on February 28, 2018, 08:44:07 PM
Writing like I do is fun, for me at least... If it helps, this is also how I talk.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
I get that; and I wasn't thinking of your posts when I made that comment😊
Actually when I wrote that comment I was thinking about how dry and dull a lot of the threads are; I wasn't in awe of anyone's writing style.
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Cassi

Quote from: kitchentablepotpourri on February 28, 2018, 10:19:25 PM
I get that; and I wasn't thinking of your posts when I made that comment😊
Actually when I wrote that comment I was thinking about how dry and dull a lot of the threads are; I wasn't in awe of anyone's writing style.

What I find interesting is that the posts on this site have a special mystic about them.  By that I mean some I find to be boring to me, no disrespect intended to anyone, but if the topic is of an interest or something to someone then it almost becomes magical in its helpfulness.

Now, on the brightside, you always have me coming up with weird comments too :)
HRT since 1/04/2018
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AnnMarie2017

Quote from: kitchentablepotpourri on February 28, 2018, 09:53:10 PM
I know plenty of those types who aren't afraid to let their hair down; enginerds, scientists, and lawyers, oh my 👀

I wish I could let my hair down.  :( My wig is synthetic and reaching the end of its lifespan. The ends have been frizzed from use. I have to keep it in a ponytail to keep from looking like a cavewoman.
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