Do you pass or not?

[skipulus]

Yes when I'm out and about and no one knows me and I don't need to say much. I went shopping for shirts today and yesterday and it was sir all the way loud and clear and no hesitation. It feels so good and natural.
I have mostly passed when I'm commuting for a long time.
Going to the ladies was always a bit difficult, they would say "this is the ladies " and things like that or even come in see me and turn around and leave again.
So now going to the men's is a relief.
None has so much as paused. Except the first week at work after I was out but they got quickly used to it and stand next to me at the urinals.
But at public toilets there is not so much as a second glance.

I want to say one thing though guys and girls, older gent that I am, with some experience of being ostracised, ridiculed, and excluded, for large periods of my life.

People have eyes and eyes are always looking at something while they are avake and active.
People staring or looking with or without a funny look on their faces doesn't mean a thing.
For the most part we are all so preoccupied with our self's that we go through life looking askew at all kinds of people without realising or even actually noticing it. Think back through your day or the last time you walked down the street and describe to yourself the people you saw.
You can't can you? Maybe one or two the stood out but all the rest is forgotten.

My point is that often people stare or look and they may have a look on their face but they actually didn't really see you or notice it fully. If asked 5-10min later they wouldn't recall you.

I needed to learn that a long time ago because I was so distressed from bullying that I thought that everyone was watching me, which of course they weren't.

We are so preoccupied with dressing as our gender and passing that we constantly read that into every gaze but that doesn't mean that those looking even noticed us.

Don't read into the minds of others just because they glanced your way, you don't know what they are thinking.
It might be "I need to buy bread and milk on the way home and take gas, is that lady wearing a wig? I wonder if my son remebered his homework this morning, ohhh bother lunch is over."

[Linde]

Don't read into the minds of others just because they glanced your way, you don't know what they are thinking.
It might be "I need to buy bread and milk on the way home and take gas, is that lady wearing a wig? I wonder if my son remebered his homework this morning, ohhh bother lunch is over."

I don't believe that men even think that deep, judging by my thinking, having been one for many decades.  It was more important to listen to some sporty exhaust note of some car and wondering what it was, or looking a a pretty female , and dreaming, or thinking about the upcoming poker night, etc. While looking with empty eye around in the world!

[judithlynn]

I do like this thread. I have actually transitioned twice.

The first time some 30 years ago I transitioned in the United Kingdom and lived full time for over 2 years. This was the time when "The News of the World" were doing all those expose's and generally the UK was not too friendly a place.  I was under the care of the GIC and on a pretty heavy HRT program and working full time for one of the UK banks as a secretary in Milton Keynes.

What made me transition was being made redundant, and by encouragement from two close Cis females and recommendations from the GIC. By then I had received a lot of Electrolysis and Beauty treatments and during this time I had my Colours done. This had an enormous effect because I was then only using cosmetics (nail polish, lipstick, blusher etc matched to my skin tones) and also wearing clothes again that matched my colours - Autumn.

However after about 2.25 years, I got outed at work and lost my job. It was funny it was a combination of things that gave me away. Not my voice (as  I have always had a good singing range), nor An Adams Apple (I have never had one, not hands or feet (mine are very small), but it was a combination of  little things. For instance one girl told me one thing that gave me away was the way I ate potato crisps. She said girls take one or two crisps at a time - she said I ate them like a man. She said it was my arm gestures, that i didn't use my wrist movements more. The big thing though that really outed me though was from an evening with my work group at a night club when I ended up dancing too close  to a young male colleague who had wandering hands syndrome. After a couple of complaints from older women about my using the ladies toilets, 2 weeks later I lost my job for not disclosing on my application form that I was trans. I remember saying to the Bank - would you have offered me the job if I did disclose it. They said No.

Anyway 30 years on, after all that effort,  the changes in society and  much more acceptance, I think now I pass pretty well and always aim to blend in and rarely get read, but just last night I was out with a group of Lesbian friends and I was introduced to a new member of the group who then asked if I was Trans. So despite all the effort and practice - some things give me away.

Mind you some 4 years ago I was in Adelaide out for dinner with Cindy and I went to the Ladies and suddenly saw this beautiful woman in the mirror and was shocked to suddenly realise that I did look great - I was finally over the male fail barrier  (Cindy of course told me of course you are!).

Then just last year I was in Debenhams in Exeter in Devon and going up the escalator to the first floor (heading to the ladies lingerie section (as they do really nice bras and things) and behind me a woman said excuse me madam, but I just wanted to say that I think you look absolutely wonderful in that gorgeous dress  with your matching shoes and handbag. It would be so nice if more women took care on their overall presentation. She turned out to be the floor manager.  I was wearing a summers dress (just above the knee), bare arms, pink matching medium heels, pink handbag

So  I must be doing something right!

JudithLynn

[DebbySoufflage]

I have had a very easy time with passing. I'm small framed, pretty and curvaceous.
All these things have really helped.
My voice never dropped either and I'm only 5'5'' . Unless I decide to tell people, they assume I'm cis.

Sometimes this has advantages and sometimes it has disadvantages.
I have lots of cishet men hitting on me when I go out for a drink by myself. I prefer not telling them but I have no choice because it could get me killed if I took him home without telling.

Luv
Debby

[Julia1996]

I pass completely. I'm small, 5'4 and my voice is well within the female range. Actually I think people are too busy looking at my white skin, white hair and weird purple/pink eyes (I stopped wearing my chocolate brown tinted contacts)to ever consider if I might be trans. Lol

[Charlie Nicki]

At 11 months on HRT, in my case it's very much hit and miss. If I'm wearing the right outfit, I will get gendered correctly. If I'm wearing something baggy they will misgender me even with makeup on. I don't think my face is super masculine, more like androgynous and they probably just go the safe route and think I'm male. Plus my voice doesn't help lol.

@Kaitylynn's reply above gives me hope but I don't think I'll want to wait 3 years for HRT to work. I will probably get FFS way before that.

This has significantly changed for me. I really can't pinpoint what makes the difference now...Probably a combination of things...A bit of surgery since then, longer hair and more time on hormones, now I get gendered correctly around 95% of the time? The other 5% being sometimes when I'm on the phone. Even more shocking is that it's getting more frequent that I meet guys who have no idea I'm trans...That's still a shocker for me, in my mind I think I'm super clockable but I guess not.

[Mendi]

I have now understood what people mean, that passing isn´t just how you look and it´s not a black&white question, you are not just passable or non-passable.

What I mean, that I get treated as a female everywhere. The term passing isn´t relevant anymore. As I get treated as a female and thus it doesn´t matter whether or not I´m passable as a cis woman.

[AshleyP]

I have now understood what people mean, that passing isn´t just how you look and it´s not a black&white question, you are not just passable or non-passable.

What I mean, that I get treated as a female everywhere. The term passing isn´t relevant anymore. As I get treated as a female and thus it doesn´t matter whether or not I´m passable as a cis woman.

Reminds me of a discussion I had recently with my therapist. I'd made a similar observation, and she posed the question, "Does it matter whether others [strangers] see you as cis or trans as long as they see you as a woman?"

Does it matter?

--AshleyP

[Allie Jayne]

I'm a long way from passing and running out of years. I doubt I ever will get an acceptable shoulder to hip ratio. My dysphoria requires me to transition, but I'm not planning to ever go full time. (though I would love to) Funnily enough, even presenting as a big shouldered male, anybody who knows me accepts that I am female.

Allie

[Linde]

I'm a long way from passing and running out of years. I doubt I ever will get an acceptable shoulder to hip ratio. My dysphoria requires me to transition, but I'm not planning to ever go full time. (though I would love to) Funnily enough, even presenting as a big shouldered male, anybody who knows me accepts that I am female.

Allie

There it comes again, the myth of shoulder to hip ratio.  Go out there and look around, there are many cis women who have wider shoulders than hips.  I hardly see women with this mystical ration of an hour glass!

Why do you think you need to have it, to pass?
I was lucky, and my hips are slightly wider than my shoulders, but I was made fun of because of this for many years of my life!  And that was no fun either!

[Allie Jayne]

There it comes again, the myth of shoulder to hip ratio.  Go out there and look around, there are many cis women who have wider shoulders than hips.  I hardly see women with this mystical ration of an hour glass!

Why do you think you need to have it, to pass?
I was lucky, and my hips are slightly wider than my shoulders, but I was made fun of because of this for many years of my life!  And that was no fun either!

Have to disagree. Any woman built like a bodybuilder is going to be looked at a second time, and then the larger hands and feet will be noticed. Sure, petite women can get away with smaller hips than shoulders, but on larger frames it's a dead give away. Visual acceptance of women goes back to primal factors, and small upper bodies are less threatening than larger ones. Acceptance is one thing, passing as a woman is another.

Allie

[Linde]

Have to disagree. Any woman built like a bodybuilder is going to be looked at a second time, and then the larger hands and feet will be noticed. Sure, petite women can get away with smaller hips than shoulders, but on larger frames it's a dead give away. Visual acceptance of women goes back to primal factors, and small upper bodies are less threatening than larger ones. Acceptance is one thing, passing as a woman is another.

Allie

But don't forget that estrogen will help to reshape your upper body.  Muscles will go away, and the once so mighty chest will get smaller, while the rear end gets bigger!

[Maid Marion]

If passing is important you should study a style guide based on body shape and size.  Just as GGs do! For MtF this usually means that you are a large Inverted Triangle.

You can draw attention to or away from particular body parts.  Nail polish will draw attention to your hands.  A belt can draw attention to your waist.  Long hair may draw attention to your face.  Heels will certainly draw attention to your legs and feet.

Of course, if you do nothing people may rely on first impressions based on your gait and body shape.

[emma-f]

Have to disagree. Any woman built like a bodybuilder is going to be looked at a second time, and then the larger hands and feet will be noticed. Sure, petite women can get away with smaller hips than shoulders, but on larger frames it's a dead give away. Visual acceptance of women goes back to primal factors, and small upper bodies are less threatening than larger ones. Acceptance is one thing, passing as a woman is another.

Allie

A few pages ago I wrote this, I think it applies equally here:

"Seems to me that passing is not a "one thing" thing but rather holistic. There may be a few tiny little things that add up to a giveaway. I'm sure she wouldn't normally look at someone with size 7-8 shoes and think of them as trans, but add in the other little clues, a face that has a few masculine traits being pre-FFS, a voice perhaps a touch deeper than normal, or without the correct inflection, and suddenly the alarm rings.

Obviously there are a few "one thing"s that are an automatic giveaway of gender, a beard for example, but for most other things, height, broadness, voice, feet, shape, mannerisms etc, its more part of an overall parcel. Deal with as many as you have control over and don't worry about the ones you can do nothing about.

My thoughts on it anyway"

Don't let broad shoulders define your thoughts and who you are. Yes they're a masculine trait, but many women also have them. I know a cis woman well over 6 feet tall with shoulders probably 2 feet wide. No one thinks of her as anything but a cis woman as her overall package suggests that.

Em

[Colleen_definitely]

Also remember that as your deltoids and lats shrink on HRT, so will the appearance of your shoulders.

[Maid Marion]

It is holistic, which means that everything matters.  If you want to pass you may have to give up certain things, like sexy bodycon dresses that call attention to a masculine figure. But, the eye is easily fooled, so it may not be that hard if you have the proper guidance or advice.  Getting help from someone else is a good idea, it is almost impossible to be objective.

[Bea1968]

I could not pass to a blind man in a dark alley on an ovecast night but, I'm not doing this for them.

[Northern Star Girl]

I could not pass to a blind man in a dark alley on an ovecast night but, I'm not doing this for them.

@Bea1968
Dear Bea:
You are exactly right about "doing this for you" and not anyone else...
...it is for your own personal commitment to yourself.

Best wishes to you in your journey...
Hugs,
Danielle

[Allie Jayne]

A few pages ago I wrote this, I think it applies equally here:

"Seems to me that passing is not a "one thing" thing but rather holistic. There may be a few tiny little things that add up to a giveaway. I'm sure she wouldn't normally look at someone with size 7-8 shoes and think of them as trans, but add in the other little clues, a face that has a few masculine traits being pre-FFS, a voice perhaps a touch deeper than normal, or without the correct inflection, and suddenly the alarm rings.

Obviously there are a few "one thing"s that are an automatic giveaway of gender, a beard for example, but for most other things, height, broadness, voice, feet, shape, mannerisms etc, its more part of an overall parcel. Deal with as many as you have control over and don't worry about the ones you can do nothing about.

My thoughts on it anyway"

Don't let broad shoulders define your thoughts and who you are. Yes they're a masculine trait, but many women also have them. I know a cis woman well over 6 feet tall with shoulders probably 2 feet wide. No one thinks of her as anything but a cis woman as her overall package suggests that.

Em

Thank you Emma for your comments! I don't let my current physique determine who I am, I just believe it would stop me from passing in the eyes of others. As I said, most people who know me think of me as female, and I am on HRT to better match my self ID and appearance. As much as I'd love to pass, I'm realistic enough to know that it isn't currently possible. I'm not letting that rule my life, being female to me is not necessarily being pretty. I love to cook and sew, talking intimately with women, and absolutely love children. Having strangers think I am female from looks alone would be nice, but it would be just icing on the cake! We all have a different perspective on transition, so our goals are different as well. I just think it is important to have realistic goals, to avoid severe disappointment.

Allie

[Allie Jayne]

Also remember that as your deltoids and lats shrink on HRT, so will the appearance of your shoulders.

Thank you Colleen. Yes, I am looking forward to muscle shrinkage giving me a better shape, and as I am naturally big muscled, I'm hoping for significant change. But I am starting very late in life, (65yo) so my reaction to the HRT meds may not be as dramatic as I'd like. I will wait and see, but keeping a conservative outlook, as I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than bitterly disappointed!

Allie