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Do you pass or not?

Started by Priya, March 04, 2018, 01:10:54 PM

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Allie Jayne

Quote from: Dietlind on April 30, 2019, 09:00:47 AM
But don't forget that estrogen will help to reshape your upper body.  Muscles will go away, and the once so mighty chest will get smaller, while the rear end gets bigger!

Hopefully Dietlind, but at 65, I may not get such dramatic results. My T has been in the female range for a decade, yet my muscles have remained large (My son says it isn't fair, as I don't work out either). Hopefully E will make enough change (I'm not on Spiro), but I have to be realistic with my prospects of passing.

Allie
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soyunachica

My voice passes pretty well, but my presentation is still mostly male and my looks are almost androgynous minus the beard shadow. I have to fight doctors' offices to convince them I'm not my mother over the phone now.

I feel like that by starting with voice training, I'm at this point the opposite of most other trans women I meet where their voice outs them but their appearance is stellar.
Preferred pronouns: She/her/hers
Preferred pet: Felis catus
Preferred operating system: Linux!!!
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Josie_L

Passing is not just about looks, but our mannerisms, stance, body language, facial expression and prestentation
is as or more important anyway. Especially when these are done naturally without thinking compared to acting out
the role. 
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Karen_A

Quote from: AshleyP on April 29, 2019, 11:57:55 PM
Reminds me of a discussion I had recently with my therapist. I'd made a similar observation, and she posed the question, "Does it matter whether others [strangers] see you as cis or trans as long as they see you as a woman?"

I would suggest for many if not most who read a T* still treat them as woman they likely see not a woman but a man "trying" to be a woman... but that have no issue with that... (but some will)

So the question IMO really is does THAT matter... and the answer is very individual.

- karen
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Karen_A

Quote from: Allie Jayne on April 30, 2019, 05:44:57 AM
I'm a long way from passing and running out of years. I doubt I ever will get an acceptable shoulder to hip ratio.

I started HRT at 40 and I am now in my mid 60's and I never did... I also have big a upper body with no hips or backside... I did better when I was very overweight in the passing department (I was once 360lbs!), but that has other downsides.

Now at half that weight my frame (and lack of dramatic HRT results) means that in this day and age some read me.

I think with that type of build one needs very good HRT results... I think it matters a lot less if one is short and has an overall slight build.

- karen
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DebbySoufflage

Quote from: Karen_A on May 05, 2019, 05:38:23 PM
I would suggest for many if not most who read a T* still treat them as woman they likely see not a woman but a man "trying" to be a woman... but that have no issue with that... (but some will)

So the question IMO really is does THAT matter... and the answer is very individual.

- karen

This is true IMHO. Passing privilege grants you an opportunity to be treated as a cis woman.
I remember when I had to present pre-HRT, people were nice but rather saw me as a feminine man and were walking on egg shells to not say anything bad. Now 4 years later I pass flawlessly and people treat me completely differently. I just get treated like every other woman nowadays.
It was like day and night for me.


Luv,

Debby
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Linde

I pass all the time for quite a while now.  But because of my biology my body was mostly female anyway all my life.  The biggest problem was the socialization, i. e., behave like a woman and not like a man in female clothing.  For the last 5 or 6 years now, I have only female friends and do things with females only.  This changed me away from my male behavior to female type of behavior, and also helped me to mostly eliminate my typical male way of talking.
Nature blessed me with a rather high pitch voice, and I had only to change the male type of talking to sound female,  I have this kind of talking so internalized now that it became my second nature.
The only times I purposely fall back into my male speech type is on the telephone.  I feel I get better reactions/actions and results with my male voice than with my female.

But, as was said before, passing depends not only on the looks, it also depends on the presentation and behavior!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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Julia1996

Quote from: Dietlind on May 05, 2019, 08:46:31 PM
I pass all the time for quite a while now.  But because of my biology my body was mostly female anyway all my life.  The biggest problem was the socialization, i. e., behave like a woman and not like a man in female clothing.  For the last 5 or 6 years now, I have only female friends and do things with females only.  This changed me away from my male behavior to female type of behavior, and also helped me to mostly eliminate my typical male way of talking.
Nature blessed me with a rather high pitch voice, and I had only to change the male type of talking to sound female,  I have this kind of talking so internalized now that it became my second nature.
The only times I purposely fall back into my male speech type is on the telephone.  I feel I get better reactions/actions and results with my male voice than with my female.

But, as was said before, passing depends not only on the looks, it also depends on the presentation and behavior!

I think you totally pass. In fact you remind me a lot of my great aunt Gerta. She is one of my very favorite relatives but unfortunately I don't get to see her much because she's in Germany. 😕
Julia


Born 1998
Started hrt 2015
SRS done 5/21/2018
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MeTony

It was a great ego boost when I passed at the doc's office. I was seeing the team who gave me my TS diagnose. The psychologist looked around in the room and in her papers. Looked at all the guys (3 of us) and then in the papers. Then she asked "Is there someone in here who has an appointment with me?"

I still had my birth name in the papers.

I agree to previous posters. It's more than just the looks. It's mannerism and behavior.

In my evaluation by the transgender team I read "masculine mannerism" in my medical record. In my country you can see that online.


Tony
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Linde

Quote from: Julia1996 on May 05, 2019, 09:17:40 PM
I think you totally pass. In fact you remind me a lot of my great aunt Gerta. She is one of my very favorite relatives but unfortunately I don't get to see her much because she's in Germany. 😕
Well, I may come by and visit you instead of her, when I do my annual trip up north or back this year.  And you could call me Gerta for a change!  :angel:
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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Julia1996

Quote from: Dietlind on May 05, 2019, 11:52:21 PM
Well, I may come by and visit you instead of her, when I do my annual trip up north or back this year.  And you could call me Gerta for a change!  :angel:

That would be fun. My grandma could show you around Denver. She would totally love to have another German lady to hang with.
Julia


Born 1998
Started hrt 2015
SRS done 5/21/2018
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Linde

Quote from: Julia1996 on May 06, 2019, 12:14:25 AM
That would be fun. My grandma could show you around Denver. She would totally love to have another German lady to hang with.
I did not know that you were over there in th e mountains.  It is quite a bit out of my way (going from Florida to Minnesota), but I can see if i can wing I on my way back, or on another Trip (I still have to visit my niece in California, she has never seen me as her aunt).
I could have a nice Kaffeklatsch or two with your Grandma!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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Faith


I had a bunch of text written about how I feel about 'passing'. I changed it to one line:

"The one thing that I know for certain: The only place that I want to pass 100% yet I fail 100% is in my own mirror"
I left the door open, only a few came through. such is my life.
Bluesky:@faithnd.bsky.social

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F_P_M

well i'm pre everything so not yet.

i'm at the "look either like a pre pubescent boy or a butch lesbian" stage.

I've had a few interactions lately that confirm this. A guy yesterday actually HISSED at me as he passed, I assume because he was making assumptions about my appearance and sexuality. I ignored him while smirking to myself "you're only half right douchebag" (i'm bisexual haaha)

I'm fairly sure the guy who abused me on the bus the other week only approached me to harrass because he thought I was a kid (I apparently look about 12-14) and the fact that the man behind us who defended me referred to me as "that young lady" sort of confirmed they thought i was a teenager (and not well into my 30s). Though they only started to refer to me with gendered terms when I spoke so I assume it was my voice that confirmed it for them. Heck, as I left the bus a couple of well meaning strangers were trying to mother me!
So yeah...

I look like a teenager.

my neighbour said I looked like a boy so yay neighbour? hahah.

my biggest problem is more my voice. In terms of most mannerisms i've always been fairly masculine in the way I sit and walk and all that, but I have a very obviously female voice.
Also the fact I refuse to remove my jewellery haha, that doesn't help either but eh, i'm not removing my jewellery. I like my jewellery.

I'm definitely going to come across as somewhat flamboyant when I do eventually "pass" and i'm okay with that. I AM a rather flamboyant person. Always have been. It's got nothing to do with my genitals or being socialised a certain way (most of my upbringing was fairly gender neutral tbh) and more just my personality.

basically I need a deeper voice and a more angular face and then I should be golden. I mean yeah i'm gonna look like a teenage boy but to be fair, that's just the genes from my dad's side. ALL that side of the family have baby faces lol.
When i cut my hair short I said to my mother "omg I look like my dad!" and she was all "you DO NOT!" and I was like "I DO! it's hilarious!"

I can definitely see the resemblance far far easier now that my hair is short and boyish. The more male I look, the more clearly my dad's kid I become lol. Which is funny because I always assumed I looked nothing like either of my parents.


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Linde

I bet you could train your voice to be lower, the same way as trans women can get higher.  I have a rather high pitch naturally, and can switch into female or male sounding conversations.  I bet you can do that, too.  Just move your resonance down into your chest will help a lot already, and learn the male type speech pattern, and you will be there.
You will not get a deep booming guy voice, but an OK one.  I never could do he booming sounds either, but nobody ever had any doubts that I was not a guy!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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Victoria L.

I have not really begun transitioning, so I don't really pass. However, I do occasionally get read as a woman or most often get the "ma'am...sir" thing. It's a bit comforting that I do get that just because of my hair being longer and my clothes being women's but extremely subtly so. It gives me some hope for when I get on HRT and actually get my hair styled (and grow it out further, it's currently "medium" by women's standards) and put on make up.
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emma-f

Quote from: Faith on May 06, 2019, 06:38:25 AM
I had a bunch of text written about how I feel about 'passing'. I changed it to one line:

"The one thing that I know for certain: The only place that I want to pass 100% yet I fail 100% is in my own mirror"

I get this entirely. To add another 100% to it - that is 100% me. And I'm fairly sure it 95% annoys my friends when I obsess over it!

Em
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Artesia

8226 by Claire Labus, on Flickr

A little over two years in, just before Christmas of 2018.  This also happens to be the first time I felt that I was able to pass.  I still have my doubts though.
All the worlds a joke, and the people, merely punchlines

September 13, 2016 HRT start date
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Shay9999

When I first came out I felt like nobody saw me as a woman. When I was in New York last month for my vocal cord surgery, a friend of a friend we were meeting up with said that she was shocked and completely forgot I was trans. I feel like I pass. I look in the mirror and don't feel like a boy anymore. That being said, I also notice every flaw in every trans woman, including myself. Like chins, hips, hands, hair. So, I know I pass, and I feel like a woman, but it's hard to say that I pass 100%. If I could give myself a grade, B-.
If you ever feel like you're unloved, message me. Reach out to me. Seriously. I love you. I'll listen to everything to need to say. I'm running on California time, and I'm a full time student, so if you're expecting a reply, please be patient. But I'll always reply. Thinking of you.
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Allie Jayne

I think some of the responses may be confusing 'passing' and 'accepted'. I see passing as being identified as cis by pretty much everyone. Being identified as trans without negative experiences is being accepted. I doubt I'll ever achieve the dream of being seen as a cis woman by many, but I will be happy if I can be accepted as a trans woman.

From learning photography, I found that initial perceptions depend on some key features. It's not just what you look like, but how the observer assesses a scene. In a photo of a person, the eye is the first thing an observer is drawn to, so it must be in focus. Some say this is instinct as the eye can inform if someone is friendly or foe. The next thing is the setting. In typical female settings, the observer expects to see females, and so will initially see everyone as a female, unless there are obvious contradictions. Same for male settings. In a photo of a person with long hair pushing a shopping trolley in a supermarket, initial id will be female. Things that will cause a second look in a photo are those which don't complete the story. If the trolley pusher is coming into the photo, ie there is an aisle ahead of them, the observer uses the information presented to complete the story, ie person shopping. If the trolley pusher is leaving the photo, the observer doesn't have the information to see the immediate future, and so a question is formed.

Presenting as other than your birth gender uses the same principles. If you basically look consistent with the story, the observer will be confident of the immediate future and move on. If there is an obvious inconsistency with the story, the observer will stop and question to determine the immediate future before moving on. The key elements are distance, the scene and the eye. It comes back to instinct. At a distance, another person is less threat, but as you get closer, it is natural to quickly look for signs of threat, so going to the eye is first. If the eye doesn't show threat, then the rest of the package will be assessed. This is why young teen girls are so good at making trans people. They are honing their visual defences, and are sensitive to anything which doesn't complete the story.

Passing as cis is great, but being accepted despite doubt as to your gender may be a greater achievement as you have done things to cause people to welcome you into their world which may be a stronger relationship. Not passing and not being accepted are what most of us fear.

Enough rambling, over to your thoughts!!

Allie
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