Is it possible to live in one's target gender without "passing naked?"

[Veronica Secret]

It seems there is a lot of insecurity and concern here about passing, especially among the pre-ops and I was thinking after reading another thread* that one of the reasons I don't have that insecurity (Or at least dwell on it like I used to) is that I know I pass naked.

After being in locker rooms and saunas with other naked women, after having been intimate with men and not having them question or give any indication that I am anything but what I am, a woman, the obsession with passing passes. People who know what to look for can usually spot something about the vast majority of us that might give them a clue but who cares? I know what I am and who I am. And I believe having the experience of "passing naked" and knowing that I don't have anything to hide anymore is a major influence in that confidence and security.


*

I will never forget the feeling I had after my workout when I went to the women's locker room, took off my clothes and went into the group shower with two other women.  I even chatted with them about the weather or something mundane like that.  I was never concerned again about "passing".

Terri

[Berliegh]

This is a good subject.....and I think it is harder to pass naked no matter if you are pre op or post op..

female bodies are different to male bodies, the pelvis is different on females are more prominant and wider. I have done a bit of study on this comparing a genetic female and transsexual of the same height and similar builds. The both looked totally different...
Close scrutiny will show the differences but a casual observer may not be looking for these differences unless the person is supected of being TS..

There should be more opportunities and operations to narrow this gap other than breast augmentation, lipoocuction and genital surgery..

[Lisbeth]

female bodies are different to male bodies, the pelvis is different on females are more prominant and wider. I have done a bit of study on this comparing a genetic female and transsexual of the same height and similar builds. The both looked totally different...

Perhaps in some cases.  But the range of "normal" for both males and females overlaps.  In my own case, I have a feminine bone structure.  That includes the hands, the feet, and the hips.  Are there women with bigger hips than mine?  Sure.  There are also lots of them with smaller hips.  I was looking at myself from the back last night using two mirrors.  From that direction, I am perfectly passable naked.

[Veronica Secret]

Re: female bodies different from male bodies. A vagina usually gives it away.

[Dennis]

Re: female bodies different from male bodies. A vagina usually gives it away.

Not really. I do fine in men's changing rooms - guys don't look at each other. And people don't see what they don't expect to see.

Dennis

[Rachael]

you know why being preop erks me so much? is it people having xray vision? nah, its me knowing its there, and feeling shameful of my own body... the more female i look, the more it hurts me. having that thing, NOT being a complete, normal, girl, like all my friends breaks my heart. Does grs matter? nobodys gonna see it!
yeah
it does to me.
and Passing naked doesnt effect how one lives ones life tbh....
being happy does, but having a vagina sure helps in the shower i guess..
R

[Keira]

For many, sexuality is not important post-op,
for those, there's not really much difference with other women with little sexuality.

As for lockers or whatever, there's always a way to change that will hide you
and I've never liked showering in public and doubt this will change.
I'll just go to the high places where they've got private seperate shower enclosures
(this helps with undressing too).

[Sarah]

I think this topic has been answered already.
But "living" has little to do with being naked.
Do you pay your bills naked?
Shop for groceries naked?
Go to work naked? (not unless you are a stripper or in the adult industry)
So...
Live?

[Berliegh]

I think this topic has been answered already.
But "living" has little to do with being naked.
Do you pay your bills naked?
Shop for groceries naked?
Go to work naked? (not unless you are a stripper or in the adult industry)
So...
Live?

that's true we are mostly dressed......but what about in the summer in a low cut swimsuit?
our bodies are different no matter what you do to them. Even extensive abdomninal surgery doesn't eradicate the difference in shape and weather you are post op or pre op, it has nothing to do with your bodyshape.

There are some exceptions like Transsexuals who started hormones at 12 before puberty who's development could alter the pelvis but this is quite rare..

[Keira]

But Berleigh, there's PLENTY of women with "boy" bodies, at least 20%,
so even if you have the greatest of curves, so WHAT!!
You still do quite OK naked or almost completely naked.

BTW, did you see my swimsuit pictures. I don't want to post them again here
and be accused of turning this into a picture galery. I think I've
got plenty of shape and I'm not a GG. 26.5 inch waist and 37 inch hips.
(10 inch diff is the normal women average so my proportions are OK).

So, I don't have "boy" hips, but like I said, plenty of women have too.
Just look on fashion sites online. They all have advices with women with little curves.

[Berliegh]

But Berleigh, there's PLENTY of women with "boy" bodies, at least 20%,
so even if you have the greatest of curves, so WHAT!!
You still do quite OK naked or almost completely naked.

I'd struggle if I was naked! I know I would have problems..

BTW, did you see my swimsuit pictures. I don't want to post them again here
and be accused of turning this into a picture galery. I think I've
got plenty of shape and I'm not a GG. 26.5 inch waist and 37 inch hips.
(10 inch diff is the normal women average so my proportions are OK).

No, I haven't seen them.

So, I don't have "boy" hips, but like I said, plenty of women have too.
Just look on fashion sites online. They all have advices with women with little curves.

It may look like it but most women in the street have much bigger hips and thighs no matter what their shape or size they are...

[Veronica Secret]

you know why being preop erks me so much? is it people having xray vision? nah, its me knowing its there, and feeling shameful of my own body... the more female i look, the more it hurts me. having that thing, NOT being a complete, normal, girl, like all my friends breaks my heart. Does grs matter? nobodys gonna see it!
yeah
it does to me.
and Passing naked doesnt effect how one lives ones life tbh....

Well, you can't possibly know that.

[Keira]

Berleigh, most women in the street have about 0.8 WHR ratio, yeah, they've got bigger hips, but they've also got a bigger waist, so in fact they're less curvy than me since I've got a 0.71 WHR.

Plenty of women are in the 1-0.8 range and if your a young athletic girl with straight hips (I've known plenty of these since I was in track and fields for 10 years). Like I said, at least 20% have boy hips. Remember, on average, women have wider hips, but there are many at the lower range which in fact have hips that are in male range.

[Rachael]

berleigh, you have an idealised view of natal women...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=488236&in_page_id=1879
yes the daily mail, but have a look...
all shapes and sizes...
i do NOT think transwomen need massive surgery to pass naked... i sure as hell know ive passed in a sarong and bikini top for a hawian theme party...
Stop watching american teen movies, and beliving all 16yo girls are curvatious, busty, mid 20s looking

Sarah yeah, your right, the toilet... so when post op, sure! id say its entire... if you pass physically, yep, your living the life of your true gender... heck, i heard some natal women stick tubular objects in thier vaginas regularly too!
R

[Marlene]

There are some exceptions like Transsexuals who started hormones at 12 before puberty who's development could alter the pelvis but this is quite rare..

Hate to break it to you, but you're wrong.  A male pelvis already has it's distict shape by age 12.  Because they start earlier those transitioners get a much better HRT response (in general) and that means more body fat in the right places.  So if you x-ray a pelvis of someone that transitioned young, you can still tell their birth gender.  I know because that's my job-taking the pictures.

Posted on: December 22, 2007, 06:44:29 AM

Berleigh, most women in the street have about 0.8 WHR ratio, yeah, they've got bigger hips, but they've also got a bigger waist, so in fact they're less curvy than me since I've got a 0.71 WHR.

Must be nice to be so thin.  I'm in my mid 40's and many women lose that wonderful ratio you mentioned once they've had a couple children and their bodies metabolism slows down.

0.8 is a beauty ideal and nothing more.

[Keira]

Its not just a beauty ideal. Good grief. A women with higher than 0.9 starts to have health problems, because of visceral fat.  They actually found that WHR is a better indicator of health
problems than BMI. The ideal for a women is 0.8 for health reason, not esthetic reason.
That it is more attractive is just an added bonus.

BTW, I'm 40 and I've been within 10 pounds of 175, all my life. Now, I'm 155,
with a minimum diet change and slightly more activity in one year. You'll
probably find me a bitch for saying that, but most TS and GG that have excess
weight is because of the wrong diet and exercise. I'm CERTAIn that
if they actually change how and what they eat and exercise they will lose weight
and look AND FEEL better.

I'm not even talking becoming hyper thin, coming back to a WHR=0.8 and
a BMI lower than 25 doesn't mean your super thin. You may be 10-15 pounds above
the ideal weight, but still your within the healthy range.


Since many women don't have children, or a small number not sure you can
really blame that for gaining weight. After menopause, women tend
to gain weight in closer to male pattern because of declining estrogen
values (which directs fat to the hips/buttocks area before that).

But, its inactivity and bad diet over a long period of time,
at any age which leads to being overweight.
Fat is not gained in one event like pregnancy. Most women come back within 5 pounds of their
pre pregnancy weight within one year. Its cumulative neglect which has led women
to edge closer and closer to 0.9. Once you've got visceral middle fat, it messes up
fat distribution even more and you gain mostly in the middle UNLESS you exercise.

[Berliegh]

berleigh, you have an idealised view of natal women...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=488236&in_page_id=1879
yes the daily mail, but have a look...
all shapes and sizes...
i do NOT think transwomen need massive surgery to pass naked... i sure as hell know ive passed in a sarong and bikini top for a hawian theme party...
Stop watching american teen movies, and beliving all 16yo girls are curvatious, busty, mid 20s looking

Sarah yeah, your right, the toilet... so when post op, sure! id say its entire... if you pass physically, yep, your living the life of your true gender... heck, i heard some natal women stick tubular objects in thier vaginas regularly too!
R

I thought the pics on the link summed it up. All of them no matter what size had hips and went in at the waist. I don't have hips and I don't go in at the waist.

.......I also object to the dreadful ' transwomen' termiinology as I'm not an alien or a freak.
The whole object of a transition is to transition from a man to a woman, not a man to a transwomen......
who started that awful term?

[Rachael]

the cornet didnt...
although im the oposite, i do go out, and in again....

and marlene: you, my friend, are wrong. starting hrt before puberty WILL effect hip growth. if it possible to see small pelvic boadening at 19-20, then its entirely possible pre puberty. i went up 2 inches in the hip, and it was all bone...im 36 30 37... tell me thats male.  a lot of other younger m2fs get normal female profiles... hrt pre puberty = pretty much indestinguishable... take a look around some... if you think all m2fs have male profiles, youve not seen much evidence...

R

[Caroline]

Hate to break it to you, but you're wrong.  A male pelvis already has it's distict shape by age 12.  Because they start earlier those transitioners get a much better HRT response (in general) and that means more body fat in the right places.  So if you x-ray a pelvis of someone that transitioned young, you can still tell their birth gender.  I know because that's my job-taking the pictures.

I think there's a fairly big crossover, I definitely don't have stereotypically male looking hips and I don't think my frame is *that* unusual... (http://www.arafel.org.uk/~mandel/Image044.jpg fwiw (and yeah my hair was silly and too short back then)).  If you get on HRT in your late teens your hips will widen a fair bit won't they?

[Shana A]

.......I also object to the dreadful ' transwomen' termiinology as I'm not an alien or a freak.
The whole object of a transition is to transition from a man to a woman, not a man to a transwomen......
who started that awful term?

I don't know who was the first to use the term, but the way I understand it, it simply means that the person identifies as a woman or man with a transsexual history. Nothing alien or freakish intended. But if you don't like it, don't use it.

y2g