Is it possible to live in one's target gender without "passing naked?"

[Berliegh]

the cornet didnt...
although im the oposite, i do go out, and in again....

and marlene: you, my friend, are wrong. starting hrt before puberty WILL effect hip growth. if it possible to see small pelvic boadening at 19-20, then its entirely possible pre puberty. i went up 2 inches in the hip, and it was all bone...im 36 30 37... tell me thats male.  a lot of other younger m2fs get normal female profiles... hrt pre puberty = pretty much indestinguishable... take a look around some... if you think all m2fs have male profiles, youve not seen much evidence...

R

Another problem I have is clothing sizes. I'm a 16 on the top and 12 on the bottom, so if I want to buy a skirt suit and but a 12, the top will be too tight and vice versa...

Genetic women are bigger on the bottom than the top and the triangle shape is the opposite to up a man.....my shape is like a man, bigger on the top than the bottom..

Posted on: December 22, 2007, 08:13:03 AM

I think there's a fairly big crossover, I definitely don't have stereotypically male looking hips and I don't think my frame is *that* unusual... (http://www.arafel.org.uk/~mandel/Image044.jpg fwiw (and yeah my hair was silly and too short back then)).  If you get on HRT in your late teens your hips will widen a fair bit won't they?

Wow...I've never seen anything like that before. You have got really good fat distribution from the look of the photograph......

[Rachael]

im rather fat 14-16 bottom, 12-14 top
i actually have trouble with bdus atm, large are too big, and medium fit lenghtwise, but are tight in the bum and hips... and small shirts fit fine >< im a weirdass shape ><
R

[Veronica Secret]

Funny that this thread has turned into a discussion about concerns people have as to how they are gendered.

[Maud]

I would have thought that not having a wang would be pretty convincing unless you're a complete man-->-bleeped-<-.

Most people don't give other naked peeps in changing rooms that much scrutiny.

[Veronica Secret]

I started this thread halfway tongue in cheek but I am convinced now that having the experience of being intimate with men and hanging out with women completely naked and "stealth" does a lot to get past the insecurities all of us have and have had about being gendered correctly. (I like that terminology better BTW "gendered correctly") "Passing" implies deception.

The word "passing" also implies some kind of bar that needs to be achieved that may or may not be realistic. The term needs to be retired.

[NicholeW.]

Agreed

I started this thread halfway tongue in cheek but I am convinced now that having the experience of being intimate with men and hanging out with women completely naked and "stealth" does a lot to get past the insecurities all of us have and have had about being gendered correctly. (I like that terminology better BTW "gendered correctly") "Passing" implies deception.

The word "passing" also implies some kind of bar that needs to be achieved that may or may not be realistic. The term needs to be retired.

Agreed. Although I also admit that "gendered correctly" is much bulkier. *smile*

[Marlene]

and marlene: you, my friend, are wrong. starting hrt before puberty WILL effect hip growth. if it possible to see small pelvic boadening at 19-20, then its entirely possible pre puberty. i went up 2 inches in the hip, and it was all bone...im 36 30 37... tell me thats male.  a lot of other younger m2fs get normal female profiles... hrt pre puberty = pretty much indestinguishable... take a look around some... if you think all m2fs have male profiles, youve not seen much evidence...

You can believe whatever you like, but medically it's impossible.  Your pelvis is still male shaped.  Sorry to burst your, and everybody else who believes this, bubble.  I guess you won't believe it unless I take an x-ray of your pelvis?  It's all soft tissue hon, not bone.  It's a common myth, one that people are desperate to believe.  I'm a medical professional.  I take x-rays.  I tell you that male and female pelvi are already differentiated by age 12 and you, who have no access to such technology and images, tell me I'm wrong.  Who's deluding themselves here?

Also, how many people actually start HRT before puberty?  Almost none.  Yeah there are some, but very, very few.  You're really reaching here.  This is a lack of self-acceptance.  You have a male pelvis.  No if, ands or but(t)s about it!

A female pelvis is shorter and wider than a male pelvis.  The Ala (wings) of the female pelvis appear flatter when seen from the front.  The pelvic opening is of a totally different shape.  The shape of the pubic arch it totally different.  The shape of the ischial tuberosities (what you sit on) are of different as well; female ones (the obturator foramen) are more elongated.  The pevic tilt is different as well.  A female pelvis is tilted more forward superiorly by about 10 degrees.  Need I go on?  And all these difference are NOT altered by hormones.

Hormones do lots of wonderful things, but they do NOT alter bone structure.  It is a trans myth.

[Veronica Secret]

I don't have a dog in this hunt (the pelvic bone controversy) but methinks it's bad form to tell another member, especially when people come here for support, "you are wrong."

If we agree to disagree, fine but let's not be disagreeable.

[Marlene]

Here's a bit from Anne Lawrence's Second Type site:

However, while hormones play an important role in post-pubertal body shape, it's  thought that the male "Y" chromosome is mainly responsible for  skeletal growth.  As a trans-girl is genetically "XY" she  will thus still experience some a degree of skeletal masculinisation, even  if she commences female hormone treatment at 11 or 12. 

She recommends starting hormones at 9!  And still they will only have "slight benefit" to the pelvis.

Rachael, even if the slight benefit broadened your pelvis it will still have a distinctive male shape.  That can't be changed.  I could prove this with an x-ray.


This is my last post on this matter.


edit: Since almost everybody starts hormones much later than 12 it can be assumed that any hip widening they get (I got some too) is from what is commonly called "fat redistribution".


Also, archaeologists can easily determine the sex of a skeleton if they have skull or pelvic bones.  It gets much more difficult with other bones.  And forensic experts can use DNA to determine sex with most bones.

[Keira]

Since antropologues or forensic experts
cannot say 100% for sure when they dig out bones
that a squeleton is male or female.
There is some overlap in squeletal structure pre-puberty and even post puberty.

If there was no overlap, then their job would be very very easy.

I'll dig up the references and try to post it.

[Rachael]

not having a wang may get the 'zomg that man has no wang!'  comments, its like the topics where someone says those who dont pass should be put ahead of passable girls for grs, simply because they need it more? i say again, how does grs phelp you pass unless your flashing folk to prove it...
R

[Veronica Secret]

how does grs phelp you pass
R

I guess that is going to be an imponderable for you until you gain the power of the p***y and are comfortable in your own skin. And having a vagina is not the lack of having a "wang." Of course,that is the male construct.




Posted on: December 22, 2007, 09:12:13 PM

I started this thread halfway tongue in cheek but I am convinced now that having the experience of being intimate with men and hanging out with women completely naked and "stealth" does a lot to get past the insecurities all of us have and have had about being gendered correctly.

Yup!

[MeganRose]

OK, I couldnt really care any less about "passing / not passing" any more.

Its just not something I think about any more. I'm sure I get read as being trans all the time, I used to worry about it a lot but these days I just couldnt care less. I'm so much more confidant with myself than I ever used to be, I'm too busy feeling good about myself to be freaking about about "OMG did that person read me?!?" I need to have SRS for quite a few reasons, but to convince myself that I pass? Yeah right.

Does this make me abnormal?

Megan

[Sarah]

I think this topic has been answered already.
But "living" has little to do with being naked.
Do you pay your bills naked?
Shop for groceries naked?
Go to work naked? (not unless you are a stripper or in the adult industry)
So...
Live?

that's true we are mostly dressed......but what about in the summer in a low cut swimsuit?

Berliegh, really, I wear a bikini.

People really don't care. And those who do, get over it.
So,
What do I care?

[Berliegh]

im rather fat 14-16 bottom, 12-14 top
i actually have trouble with bdus atm, large are too big, and medium fit lenghtwise, but are tight in the bum and hips... and small shirts fit fine >< im a weirdass shape ><
R

You have a good ratio Rachael and the right way up.....mine is the opposite way round 12-14 bottom and 14-16 top....the wrong way up..

I'm the one it's not working on..

[Keira]

I started with 12 borderline 14 tops -> down to 8 with sleaves, 6, if its sleaveless like tanks.
Lost a hell of a lot of muscle up there and I've got not much fat either.
Down there, started with size 10 pants and skirts and I'm 5-6 in skirts and 6-7 in pants.
So, my top and bottom size are about the same, will probably end being 4 bottom, 4 or 6 top.

If you're WHR in 0.8 range and you're within 2 sizes, it doesn't matter if your size is bigger on top
than bottom. Most models have larger than average shoulders and not very large hips
(but with still a WHR ration of around 0,7). They usually wear larger tops than bottoms.

[Rachael]

UK or us sizes Kiera?
as 12 uk, is a us 8...
and your right, skeletons are similar pre puberty, and the development and 'broadening' of the female pelvis is after puberty  and during... males just broaden in other places...

R

[Keira]

I checked online, a UK 12, is a US 10. 2 size diffs in misses.
So, I'm about mostly 10 UK (sometimes 12) for tops, and 7-9 UK for botoms.
I'm heading toward 6 UK bottom and tops since I've got still back muscles and pectoral to give away.

[Rachael]

nuhuh... its 2 sizes different, so uk 12 is us 8.... we go in even numbers...
R

[Keira]

Here also we go in even numbers, except for juniors.
If juniors don't exist, then I'm 6-8 UK in bottoms (since size 7 US is a bit loose) and 10 UK in tops

The equivalency is such.

UK =   4 ,  6, 12, 14, 16, 18
EU =  36, 38, 40, 42, 44, 46
US =    6 , 8, 10, 12, 14, 16

Just check it out Rachael
Maybe you were thinking Australian Sizes, there is 4 in difference between US and Aussie sizes (2 with UK).