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Sabotage from Within

Started by November Fox, March 24, 2018, 08:20:01 PM

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November Fox

I've been scrolling around the forum - I can't sleep (courtesy of dysphoria), and so I came upon a poll that said "do you struggle with a dark version of yourself".

I immediately thought: "yes!" and was about to reply when I realized their question was about something else. I will ask you the question I had in mind.

Do you have an inner voice that tries to sabotage and invalidate every feeling you have concerning yourself and your body?

For example - I have an inner voice that tells me that 'my dysphoria is false', that actually I 'like the way things are now' and all kinds of other rage-inducing reasonings that are completely opposite to my actual experience.

It's like being at war - with myself. Makes me wonder where this voice is coming from. Do we all experience this kind of inner demon, attempting to sabotage our transition/invalidate our dysphoria? And why?

I'm curious to read your thoughts.
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Kylo

I have a sort of inner back-and-forth with a skeptical side of myself sometimes.

They're both part of the same ego, I assume, and both egotistical, but there's that more self-deprecating fella that comes in from time to time to temper things. Rather than fighting with it, I think it's probably useful in some ways to step aside now and again and think about transition critically. I don't know whether I put this "input" to good use, but it "takes me down a peg or two" sometimes, without making me feel lousy. Maybe because I'm not sure if I really believe it, lol. It might just be some part of the brain going through logical motions of "eliminating a problem" but without any real conviction.

It doesn't sabotage my honest appraisals about how I feel about my body, but it will come in and have a laugh at whether or not I think I've going to solve all my problems by doing A or B regards transition. Surgery is one it likes to weigh in on a lot. Do you really think this is going to make you feel X? You really reckon you're going to find Y? etc. But usually the answer from me is well I'm not finding it sitting on my arse, am I? I might as well find out.

I have wondered sometimes, early on, whether auto-suggestion played a part in how I felt about the struggle of the condition... and after a lot of thought I figured no, the suggestions came as a response to the dysphoria that was already there, in an attempt to explain the feeling of miserableness. Once I got on T though I had another problem... the fact it started to relax my dysphoria and make me feel less bothered by the anatomy I still had. That was strange, and I put it down to the relaxing (almost sedative) effect testosterone had on my mind rather than genuine feelings having changed about these things. But I had to think it all through carefully each time, making sure I wasn't talking myself into things, or losing sight of the necessary goal, and trying to examine the raw feelings I was getting without thoughts or intentions placed over them.

   

"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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JoanneB

I have two very old friends, Guilt and Shame. Both sit on one shoulder taking turns screaming in my ear at me. "What do you think you are doing????  This is crazy! You know better, you are a failure. You WILL fail...." and it goes on and on and on and on.

Then there is this ever so new friend, this angel sometimes showing up on the other shoulder whispering ever so softly......
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
  •  

Megan.

#3
I'll take on any challenge, but there was one I was never going to win, and that was with myself. I recognised there was a conflict  between Mike and Megan. Unless one backed down, the conflict was going to destroy both.
In the end, because she was a more authentic me,  Megan had to win, and Mike graciously (for the most part) stepped aside.
As for darkness, yes, I've always had that part of me (don't we all); but it's an ultimately destructive force, so an avenue I choose not to go down. If pushed,  I'm not sure there would be any limit to what I wouldn't do.

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk
  •  

PurpleWolf

Quote from: November Fox on March 24, 2018, 08:20:01 PM
Do you have an inner voice that tries to sabotage and invalidate every feeling you have concerning yourself and your body?

For example - I have an inner voice that tells me that 'my dysphoria is false', that actually I 'like the way things are now' and all kinds of other rage-inducing reasonings that are completely opposite to my actual experience.
Cool thread!

Oh yeah! For whatever reason that voice whispers in my ear things like this: 'Are you sure you want to transition?' 'Are you sure you want to get on T?' 'Are you sure you don't like your body the way it is and the way things are now?' And the worst part: 'Are you sure you wouldn't want to become a woman instead? What if you enjoyed becoming a hot woman?'

Like you said, all that is in complete contradiction to my actual experience. I mean - when I listen to my gut instead, I get actual feelings I experience in my body. When choosing my new name, I realized that I didn't feel comfortable with any gender neutral sounding name. With every female name I cringed. It's not just my deadname - I couldn't introduce myself as any girl name, even ones I really do like! I just couldn't do it. I explicitly wanted a clearly masculine name. Now I have a litany of guy names I really like - but since they are 'so me', they feel neutral to me. Despite having & explicitly wanting guy names - I still tend to think, 'what if I liked being/looking like a girl after all?' Like how on earth could I want to be a woman if I couldn't imagine even having a girl name?!! That doesn't make any sense whatsoever!

My demons are Doubt and Uncertainty. Fear of the Unknown. Like I know this is the right thing for me - but I have never experienced being on T, so how could I know for sure? Without trying? Well that's it! I can't! I must try and take a chance. And that's what scares me. And sometimes my inner dialogue is trying to make me chicken out of it.

But sometimes you just gotta do things you know are right even if they do scare you. At the moment I'm struggling with expanding my comfort zone and trying out new things and getting stuff done & meeting new people - things I've been avoiding in the past. I'm trying to get comfortable with and embrace the feeling of discomfort! I'm trying to remind myself that even if something feels uncomfortable, that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do! That's not your gut telling you 'don't do it!' Discomfort is just the natural feeling when you try something new and expand your comfort zone. I've noticed that people who manage certain things I find hard, are very uncomfortable in situations I'm fine with! It all comes down just to your comfort level and 'getting used to' things. They don't compare - it makes no sense why someone would be nervous in a group setting if they are fine with talking to people at their job! But I've noticed it's just about what you are used to, nothing else. If you are used to doing something very unusual (such as training lions, for example), that can totally be in your comfort zone. But then you can be nervous while buying ice cream if that's a new situation for you!

Also this thread about my coping strategies in the past depicts my thinking patterns when my mind is desperately trying to make sense of it all:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,235065.new.html#new
!!!REBIRTH=legal name change on Feb 16th 2018!!!
This is where life begins for me. It's a miracle I finally got it done.


My body is the home of my soul; not the other way around.

I'm more than anything an individual; I'm too complex to be put in any box.

- A social butterfly not living in social isolation anymore  ;D -
(Highly approachable but difficult to grasp)


The past is overrated - why stick with it when you are able to recreate yourself every day
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Corrina

I am at war with myself at this moment! I am stuck this way now live with it! The Corrina says you are stuck with who you are you are a feminine woman! You can let the bully win and be miserable or you can let the true you win and be happy! The bully comes back and says find a beautiful woman and you will be happy. Then Corrina comes back and says you will be jealous of her happiness of being a woman, her clothes and everything about her. It's like a comedy but a real battle! So yes I do have these inner conflicts.
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PurpleWolf


One more thing:
If it starts with 'what if' then that's not the real you talking,  ;)

Just trust your gut feeling! The actual feeling you get when experiencing dysphoria or being misgendered. The cringiness. The anger. The numbness. The pain. Or the euphoria when you are gendered correctly! Or imagining your life as your true self!

Those gut feelings never come in the form of 'what if I cringe at this?' - you just cringe, plain and simple  ;)!
!!!REBIRTH=legal name change on Feb 16th 2018!!!
This is where life begins for me. It's a miracle I finally got it done.


My body is the home of my soul; not the other way around.

I'm more than anything an individual; I'm too complex to be put in any box.

- A social butterfly not living in social isolation anymore  ;D -
(Highly approachable but difficult to grasp)


The past is overrated - why stick with it when you are able to recreate yourself every day
  •  

Kokoro

Oh boy I most certainly do have them.

It can be the stupidest little thing. Like today, it was supposed to be a warm day but I felt rather cold, even with a few layers on. This voice comes into my head; 'It's because you've shaved all your (body) hair off! If you grew it all back you'd be warmer'. A few seconds later I dismiss the notion entirely. How ridiculous. I'm not a sheep! Body hair for warmth lost it's use in humans long ago!

They come in usually when I'm off-guard, when I've not actively been thinking about transition or experiencing dysphoria. 'Hey, this feeling. Its not so bad is it? You could probably bear to live with it for another 40 or 50 years'. I'll entertain it for a few minutes maybe but then I'll remember; 'Actually, I really don't like how the tackle gets in the way of things and makes my clothes look. And I want the incomplete feeling on my chest to go away. And oh gawd - the balding spot on my head! Of course I couldn't handle it!'.

These don't always manifest in thoughts though, I sometimes get feelings. They're a little harder to explain. Like if I'm watching a movie with a fight scene and I'll get this feeling of being there myself, so wanting bigger muscles so I can hit harder.
Like I said, its rather difficult to explain.
But I have more and stronger ones the other way, like wearing shoes and practicing mentally in my mind how to walk in them, or if an outfit would look good on me.
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Kylo

Thankfully I don't feel at war with myself over transition, or much in the way of guilt, shame or doubt. All that's reserved for a career choice I'm going to make in the next year or two that will probably determine where and how I end up in life. Whether I have the backbone to do something I've always wanted to do but never felt able before due to - you guessed it - physical and social (mostly gender related) dysphoria.

I'm not sure why I feel no real doubt or shame over being what I am. I can only assume I must have dealt with it in the past. Childhood was full of it so maybe I went through it all already. There isn't much doubt either because far as I'm aware, if I don't transition I know exactly were I'll be in 5, 10, 20, 30 years... the same, and feeling exactly the same (only more regretful). If I transitioned I might be equally despondent but there's at least a chance things will change for the better, and that's a logical and statistical argument no inner demon can win. I've also accepted that there is no likelihood of "100% happiness at all times", no "permanent resolution" to all problems, and that life is a continual series of setbacks and challenges to be dealt with. In terms of social life, I could only be slightly worse off than I already am so I guess that's great. Things can really only get better there. I'm currently extremely isolated in many ways, and to be less isolated would probably only be a good thing. If not, I know how to deal with being isolated without going crazy.

In the end it comes from me having tried almost every avenue already that is open to me, and finding that none of them changed much, so this has to be done. Discomfort, dissociation etc. are no strangers and it's made the whole experience so far fairly painless; it wasn't like stepping out of a comfortable "normal" life into a strange, uncomfortable position... it's more like I'm moving toward feeling better on all fronts because my life was never normal or comfortable to begin with. Maybe it will get more normal with time. Who knows. I do know that a degree of doubt and uncertainty is normal though and if you didn't have some part of you asking if you really know what you're doing from time to time, that would probably be dangerous. So long as it's not some part of you out to destroy yourself, I figure you could rationalize it into shape.


"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
  •  

November Fox

I'm not actually doubting my transition - or questioning myself. It's hard to explain.

The voice is a false little bastard, he just wants me to fail and I don't know why. From his perspective, my dysphoria is just me trying to "resist" female parts of me, thereby "proving" I'm somehow 'female'.

If I were male, I wouldn't need to resist. That's the logic.

I don't actually believe that but I'm just trying to comprehend what's going on in my own head and see if I can answer my inner critic/bully in a calm and composed way.

Maybe I need to stop struggling and accept that all of me is male even though it doesn't look that way. But I've had difficulty doing so since the start of my transition.

Thanks for all your input, it's very interesting to see how other people experience this.

  •  

PurpleWolf


Quote from: Kokoro on March 25, 2018, 09:08:56 AM
They come in usually when I'm off-guard, when I've not actively been thinking about transition or experiencing dysphoria. 'Hey, this feeling. Its not so bad is it? You could probably bear to live with it for another 40 or 50 years'. I'll entertain it for a few minutes maybe but then I'll remember; 'Actually, I really don't like how the tackle gets in the way of things and makes my clothes look. And I want the incomplete feeling on my chest to go away. And oh gawd - the balding spot on my head! Of course I couldn't handle it!'.
This!!!

Quote from: Kylo on March 25, 2018, 09:09:07 AM
There isn't much doubt either because far as I'm aware, if I don't transition I know exactly were I'll be in 5, 10, 20, 30 years... the same, and feeling exactly the same (only more regretful).
And this too!
!!!REBIRTH=legal name change on Feb 16th 2018!!!
This is where life begins for me. It's a miracle I finally got it done.


My body is the home of my soul; not the other way around.

I'm more than anything an individual; I'm too complex to be put in any box.

- A social butterfly not living in social isolation anymore  ;D -
(Highly approachable but difficult to grasp)


The past is overrated - why stick with it when you are able to recreate yourself every day
  •  

Gertrude

Cognitive dissonance happens because of our indoctrination and the reinforcement from the society we live in. We have to reparent ourselves to not only discover who we are and accept that, but be proud of that accomplishment. Attaining authenticity is rare amongst all humans. It takes time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
  •  

PurpleWolf

Quote from: November Fox on March 25, 2018, 09:42:06 AM
Maybe I need to stop struggling and accept that all of me is male even though it doesn't look that way. But I've had difficulty doing so since the start of my transition.
That's the key! I noticed this myself after the name change. It was a HUGE thing for me and silenced most of it just like that. I feel that now I exist as male in public records and no one can take that name away from me! I only need to think about my new legal name - and I'm instantly grounded.

For me the thing you describe is because of internalized transphobia. That there's something 'wrong' in transitioning or that I might be able to cope without it after all. Which - of course - is not true! I couldn't cope even with my deadname! When I stop(ped) comparing myself to others entirely, and stopped thinking if I'm as, more or less masculine than other men, that helped. I've noticed it's about me, not other people. I need this for myself! Inside I feel I'm male, I wear guy clothes/look male, and now I have a male ID (technically not the marker, but the name). My body is also mine - I don't view it as a 'female body'. I know it doesn't look male, but T will help with that very much! With T plus top surgery I will be almost completely done. If I'm not having sex, no one will be able to know I've ever been anything else but male.

I'm a person first, and then gender=guy. The only reason not to accept this fact is if you're having internalized transphobia and doubt at the back of your mind if that's crazy on some level after all. But then I remind myself that I don't think other trans people are crazy for feeling female or wanting to present as such, far from it, so! That applies to me as well. We are just regular people with different personalities. But being a certain way, liking certain stuff, or feeling certain way is never crazy. With that name change I found my peace!

Idk... maybe I've accepted myself all along then. Just felt that the society plus other people don't which made my life unbearable with that deadname. Now my legal name finally aligns with the person I am inside. And it just feels so unbelieavably good!!! It almost makes the state of my body irrelevant in comparison.

And I've had such difficulties in life that now any change is a huge improvement!!!

You just need to practice accepting yourself as exactly the way you are! And ground yourself with a sensible thought. When thinking about that process I sometimes freak out and wonder if I really wanna get on T. Then I remind myself that that aside I at least want the top surgery 100%! I also ground myself and silence those thoughts by thinking about my name and how good that makes me feel, or how bad I feel when referred to as a woman if I've been at home for some time and not actively experiencing it so my mind tends to play tricks then.
!!!REBIRTH=legal name change on Feb 16th 2018!!!
This is where life begins for me. It's a miracle I finally got it done.


My body is the home of my soul; not the other way around.

I'm more than anything an individual; I'm too complex to be put in any box.

- A social butterfly not living in social isolation anymore  ;D -
(Highly approachable but difficult to grasp)


The past is overrated - why stick with it when you are able to recreate yourself every day
  •  

Kylo

To say I didn't have issues at one point with the metaphysics of what is male and how am I a male, then? would be a lie. And to say there isn't a part of me that wants me to fail would also be a lie. There is, because of all the acting out and harmful stuff I did in my teens, a part that wants to punish myself, or is there when I fail at something to claim I deserve it for whatever reason.

But like any voice, it's up to you whether you take it on board or disregard.

I don't worry much about the metaphysics. Maleness comes in various forms - there's the "idealized" male, there's the impotent male, there's the male who was born with extra chromosomes, the male who is not entirely comfortable with being male, the male who lost his penis for whatever reason, the male with hormonal imbalances, the gay male, and so on... They're all aspects of male that might deal with some of the exact same issues I have. I don't see the ideal male as the only male. I'm definitely not an ideal one.

My raw materials aren't male... I also know that if they're female, they've got some kind of natural flaw or problem that causes me to act in the opposite way to a female in general. Whatever it is that I am, I observe myself in the same way I'd observe an animal in biology class (my academic background) and just watch the sort of things I'm drawn to and do, and feel, from an outside perspective over the course of my whole life. I've seen lots of examples in science studies of anomalous animals behaving differently due to one naturally-occurring reason or another. The "transgender lion" being one of the most recent cases, that lioness photographed sporting a mane and male behavior. Is it a lioness? Technically. But for its own part that lion is male in drive and operation, and even appearance. Its male qualities and drives outweigh the influence of its female cells and chromosomes, so if I were dealing with this lion in captivity, it would need to be treated as a male, since that's exactly how it behaves and operates. Any other zookeeper might give it a female name and refer to it as a female but at the end of the day when he's got to deal with it he's going to do himself a favor and treat it according to its nature if he knows what's good for both himself and the lion. The semantics and regular biological definitions become meaningless with this particular lion.   

And it's the same for me. They can call me whatever they want, I could mull it over forever but the fact is, I'm like this lion. The operation and behavior takes precedence over what the description is. So I don't worry that much about it. The voice in the back might be saying but really the lion is female... and the sensible one says, yeah, tell that to the lion. I mean you wouldn't stand in the cage with it and argue with it as to its nature, and that's pretty much where I'm at with myself. 

"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
  •  

PurpleWolf

Kylo, awesome thought process  ;D!!!

Never heard of the transgender lion LMFAO xDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!
That explained it very well actually  ;D! That would make a great lecture for unaware people!!!
!!!REBIRTH=legal name change on Feb 16th 2018!!!
This is where life begins for me. It's a miracle I finally got it done.


My body is the home of my soul; not the other way around.

I'm more than anything an individual; I'm too complex to be put in any box.

- A social butterfly not living in social isolation anymore  ;D -
(Highly approachable but difficult to grasp)


The past is overrated - why stick with it when you are able to recreate yourself every day
  •  

PurpleWolf

!!!REBIRTH=legal name change on Feb 16th 2018!!!
This is where life begins for me. It's a miracle I finally got it done.


My body is the home of my soul; not the other way around.

I'm more than anything an individual; I'm too complex to be put in any box.

- A social butterfly not living in social isolation anymore  ;D -
(Highly approachable but difficult to grasp)


The past is overrated - why stick with it when you are able to recreate yourself every day
  •