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Total Stealth/Nondisclosure (Potentially Controversial)

Started by Memento, April 10, 2018, 05:05:26 PM

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Memento

So, after 6 years of this, I've come to a pretty big decision. I'm going to refrain from coming out to anyone else. I thought going to a more open-minded place would help, but it actually made me feel worse. Even when people are accepting, they still treat you as something of a foreign entity. It happens with dating, friends, employers. I'm not ready to deal with that for a lifetime. I have a ton of respect for people who are and can.

But I'm not here to mope or debate ethics.

I'd just like to hear from post-op women who have more or less transitioned out of transition. How do you manage something like that? Do you ever have pangs of guilt and do those go away? That sort of thing.

Again, I don't want to start a debate. Just a discussion of people who have made this choice.
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Zumbagirl

Pangs of guilt about what? About doing my transition? Or the fact that nearly all people are 2 faced?
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EllenJ2003

#2
14 1/2 years post-op & counting for me.  I wouldn't exactly say I'm 100% stealth, but other than my family (and a few people from way back when), very few people where I live (which I moved to back in 2004), know about my past.  I am very, very selective about whom I tell (which is only a handful of people to date). 

I did the out and proud thing, when I transitioned on my old job in the late 90s/early 00s (in a manufacturing facility of several hundred people, where I was one of the Quality Engineers, and a gage calibration tech.).  Most people accepted what I was doing, and were OK support-wise (my female coworkers were especially supportive of me), but I got sick of being the person "who did that thing," to the point that some people seemed to act like it was their sacred duty to tell new employees, or visitors to the plant, that I "used to be a guy" (yeah, right - not!!!!), when it was not their right to disclose information about my past  Throw in bathroom hassles (even post-SRS - I was told that I had to use a Unisex bathroom, come on!!!) that almost got me fired before my SRS, a major pay cut I took due to corporate downsizing during a recession, and I decided after my SRS, that I was outta there, and was not going to go out of my way advertise my past at my next place of employment, or even outside of work for that matter. I've pretty much stuck to that strategy ever since.
HRT Since 1999
Legal Name Change and Full Time in Dec. 2000
Orchiectomy in July 2001
SRS (Yaay!! :)) Nov. 25, 2003 by Suporn
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Memento

I guess by pangs of guilt, I mean not immediately disclosing to the people you date. I guess I might be the only one who feels a bit deceptive. But respect goes both ways and unless someone proves they can be trusted, I don't see why they should know.

That's really where I'd like to be, Ellen. Even when people try to be accepting, they can sort of cram that love down your throat when all you want to do is get on with your life. No one has any obligation to teach people what they should already know either. I hope that it's working out for you!

I have a few people who I'm okay with telling. They're only people who know how important privacy is to me and don't bring it up unless I do.
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Dena

My medical history is between me, my doctors and those who I chose to tell. There is no guilt in not sharing personal information. Most anybody you meet has things in their history that they will never share with you so why should you not be allowed to have secrets?

Currently a very limited number of people in my life are aware of my past and I intended to keep it that way. I want people to know and judge me for the person I am and and not because of something that happened to me over half a life time ago.
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EllenJ2003

Quote from: Dena on April 10, 2018, 10:46:39 PM
My medical history is between me, my doctors and those who I chose to tell. There is no guilt in not sharing personal information. Most anybody you meet has things in their history that they will never share with you so why should you not be allowed to have secrets?

Currently a very limited number of people in my life are aware of my past and I intended to keep it that way. I want people to know and judge me for the person I am and and not because of something that happened to me over half a life time ago.

+1  It's really not their right to know your personal information.

Sharing with someone is OK if you feel a need to, but be doubly sure they're not blabbermouths.  The only exception to the rule IMO, is in a serious relationship.  I'm not in a relationship at the present time, bit if I do find that special guy to share my life with, I do feel he has a right to know.  You can't build a solid romantic relationship when you hide things from the other half of the relationship.
HRT Since 1999
Legal Name Change and Full Time in Dec. 2000
Orchiectomy in July 2001
SRS (Yaay!! :)) Nov. 25, 2003 by Suporn
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Memento

That's a very good way of looking at it! And everybody has things they don't talk about. Secrets are a precious thing, I think.

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on April 10, 2018, 10:54:17 PM
+1  It's really not their right to know your personal information.

Sharing with someone is OK if you feel a need to, but be doubly sure they're not blabbermouths.  The only exception to the rule IMO, is in a serious relationship.  I'm not in a relationship at the present time, bit if I do find that special guy to share my life with, I do feel he has a right to know.  You can't build a solid romantic relationship when you hide things from the other half of the relationship.

I have to disagree a little. And it could just be my area, but I think I'd rather wait until pretty late in the relationship or not at all. Well... preferably not at all. I'm not a very sexual person anyway, so waiting isn't that manipulative or abusive in my opinion. But I'd only consider marrying someone who would be okay with it, even if I don't plan to let them know. Does... that make sense? In a lot of ways, bringing up trans history also brings up sexual trauma and that's something I've *finally* worked through. And there's the whole relationship dynamic, questions, drama, etc. Being trans or even being a woman is kind of irrelevant to me at this point.

Like, I understand the risks, believe me. But virtually every step of transition comes with those.

Sorry, I guess the dating aspect is the thing I wanted to hear about most here.
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Barb99

I started my transition openly and intended to stay that way. But after almost 2 years in and 6 months post op I now live as stealth as I can.

I found that people would treat me differently (not necessarly bad, just different) when they knew. I found that the guys were the worst and several of them considered me a sex object after they found out. That is not how I want to live. All I really want is to live like any other woman.

I told one guy I dated after the 2nd date that I had transitioned. He said he was ok with it be we haven't dated since. I still believe he would have been ok if he had gotten to know me better before I told him.
From now on I won't divulge that unless the relationship gets serious. Hopefully by that time we will know each other well enough that I will know how he will handle it.

I have transitioned out of transitioning and moved on to living life.
I have no guilty feelings about living my version of stealth.
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Denise

I've been full time for 14 months and I'm scheduling GCS for December.  And I can totally relate to the feelings you're experiencing.

My "plan" is to keep all the T friends I've made during transition and help them along.  I want to help/mentor youth gain the confidence to be themselves.  But as for others, stealth is my goal.

I'm 56 years old and recently divorced and that hurt.  We divorced because of my transition.  From that I've learned one thing: tell no tales.  When a relationship gets to/beyond hand holding and kissing I'll tell her.

I've lived my whole life with a lie, no more!

In 4 years I hope to be starting a career.  That new career will not know but I won't be having a personal relationship with it.



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Memento

Quote from: Barb99 on April 11, 2018, 12:17:45 PM
I told one guy I dated after the 2nd date that I had transitioned. He said he was ok with it be we haven't dated since. I still believe he would have been ok if he had gotten to know me better before I told him.
From now on I won't divulge that unless the relationship gets serious. Hopefully by that time we will know each other well enough that I will know how he will handle it.

I have transitioned out of transitioning and moved on to living life.
I have no guilty feelings about living my version of stealth.

I'm sorry you dealt with that, Barb. I do think it's anyone's right to decide when to tell. It's not like an STD or violent history.

My dating experience has been less than stellar. Even when I was the one who was approached or messaged first, I get treated like I did something wrong and in the end I always believe it. I also see where they're coming from. The person guys see is sexy because she's a tough, quirky tomboy. But when you add trans to that equation, I'm just a boy. Even though the person I am is completely different from who I was, they don't know where I started. So, I think I'll keep that to myself.

You definitely shouldn't feel guilty, and neither should anyone else. After all the crap you went through to get to this point, you deserve to feel at peace with yourself. So I hope stealth brings you some.

That's definitely generous, Denise. If everyone disappears in the masses, who will lead the way? I hope things start going better for you. For a lot of people, going stealth is the best step on the road.
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EllenJ2003

Quote from: Memento on April 11, 2018, 12:28:32 AM
I have to disagree a little. And it could just be my area, but I think I'd rather wait until pretty late in the relationship or not at all. Well... preferably not at all. I'm not a very sexual person anyway, so waiting isn't that manipulative or abusive in my opinion. But I'd only consider marrying someone who would be okay with it, even if I don't plan to let them know. Does... that make sense? In a lot of ways, bringing up trans history also brings up sexual trauma and that's something I've *finally* worked through. And there's the whole relationship dynamic, questions, drama, etc. Being trans or even being a woman is kind of irrelevant to me at this point.

Like, I understand the risks, believe me. But virtually every step of transition comes with those.

Sorry, I guess the dating aspect is the thing I wanted to hear about most here.

YMMV.  I forgot to mention that I wouldn't disclose to a guy unless we'd been dating regularly, and things were getting serious.  And doing so has to be in a safe place.  Some guys can get pretty nasty if you've been going out for a while, and spring on them that you used to be transsexual (I say used to, because once you are post-op, the "transing" is done).  It's kind of a rock and hard place thing - tell your steady, about it, and you can be subjected to a very nasty, negative reaction.  Don't ever tell hiumn or her, and that can be a real nightmare, because you end up always looking over your shoulder, fearing that he or she will find out about you.  I read years ago, about a post op who never told her husband, who ended up living in a nightmare situation, due to the fact that her husband had very nasty views about transsexuals (which he very vociferously made known, if he ever saw any transsexuals on TV).
HRT Since 1999
Legal Name Change and Full Time in Dec. 2000
Orchiectomy in July 2001
SRS (Yaay!! :)) Nov. 25, 2003 by Suporn
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BrianaJ

This here-->
QuoteI found that the guys were the worst and several of them considered me a sex object after they found out.

Why do some men think that trans women are ready to provide them with sex anytime they demand??  I've been amazed by the number experiences I've heard about from trans women about guys that instantly think they're gonna get quick sex just because she's trans and that's why she's doing it - "being trans" that is. 
~~Be kind~~
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Memento

That's probably my biggest fear, Ellen. And there's the possibility he'll dump you because he(or she) thinks you're hiding other things. But that situation happened after just a month, for me. I guess I'll do my best to test the water and find someone as chill and apolitical as me. Extremely opinionated people bug me anyway. But that is a lot to think about, so thank you.

The biggest appeal of nondisclosure is the freedom. Like, your dating chances increase greatly when you only have to worry about the same things as the rest of the population.

It's freakin' ridiculous, Briana. But it seems like most guys(and some girls) see no potential for a future with a transsexual. In some ways, I can understand(especially if they want kids), but I don't usually sleep with people unless I'd consider dating them.
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EllenJ2003

#13
Being dumped after disclosing is disheartening to say the least, but never telling the significant other in your serious relationship (and by serious, as was mentioned earlier, you're beyond having a few dates, and doing some kissing phase), is not fair to them (since the relationship is based to a significant extent upon hiding things from the other person).  Put yourself in their shoes - would you like it if they hid things from you?  With that in mind, despite the chance of the relationship ending after disclosure, that's not always the case.  I know a couple of post-ops, who have been married, or were married (no they didn't divorce - he died after they had been married for around 30 years) for at least a decade.  In both cases, their husbands knew or know about their transsexual past (their husbands' mindset was case of "I only know you as you are now, and don't care that you use to be transsexual, just don't constantly remind me that you were transsexual").

Regarding stealth - it's probably impossible to be 100% stealth due to the fact that with so many computerized records nowadays (legal records like name changes, birth certificate changes, etc.), it's possible for people to find out about your past if they do enough digging (which has become a very commonly done thing within the past 10 plus years or so, for most prospective new employee hires in the workplace).  I understand, and that's just the way it is.  Despite that, you can still mainly be stealth in your life - just don't make a habit of telling every Tom, Dick, and Harriet that "hey I used to be a transsexual." 

Unless you have problems passing, the vast majority of people IMO, will not figure out that you used to be transsexual.  I had this hammered home to me in the summer of 2000, before I went full time (which was in Dec. 2000).  In early 2000, my boss (to whom I had disclosed that I was transitioning in 1999 [I'm grateful that he provided support to me - he kept me from being fired when upper management was told in a meeting about my transition]) told me the "everybody knows about you transitioning," so when my female coworkers, asked to see me dressed up in more than tees and jeans, I took a vacation day in the summer of 2000, and went back to work, to visit with my female coworkers wearing a skirt and sandals.  Instead of calling ahead, and asking them to meet me in the parking lot, like an idiot I walked in the building to the department I worked in to see my female coworkers, passing all sorts of people in the process, and creating a major ruckus!!!  It turned out that my boss was not 100% correct - not everybody in the facility (despite me having contact as a part of my job with a huge percentage of the people who worked there), knew I was transitioning (probably less than half the people knew that I was doing so).  So they were surprised (shocked in some cases) to say the least to see me walking around wearing a skirt and sandals. Upper management was not amused to say the least.  Unlike some people I knew, I didn't do a lot of don'ts during my transition, but that was one of them, and I still occasionally cringe when I think about it.  My point - don't assume that everybody knows you used to be a transsexual, that probably isn't the case (unless you have a hard time passing, and are oftentimes clocked), so it isn't necessary to disclose to everybody that you "used to be transsexual" - it makes life a lot easier IMO.
HRT Since 1999
Legal Name Change and Full Time in Dec. 2000
Orchiectomy in July 2001
SRS (Yaay!! :)) Nov. 25, 2003 by Suporn
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Memento

I definitely won't make a conscious effort to hide anything. I've never been 'found out' unless I tell them. That or I leave blanks in my past, but physically I don't get clocked. And if I'm ever asked out, I let him know I can't have kids and if he asked why I'd tell him. On top of that, if it gets far enough into it I might ask, "What if I used to be a guy?" I definitely couldn't sleep with a guy before telling and asking him something like that. Hell, I can't even tongue a guy unless I really, really trust him. I won't deny it, I just won't bring it up on my own.

Are there absolutely no secrets you'd keep from your lover? I don't make a habit of being attached at the hip and I'm okay with not knowing every single detail about a person's history. Issues that affect someone in the present such as mental illness, STDs, cheating and addiction are a different story. But I definitely don't need to know when my guy stopped wetting the bed or when he first masturbated, jazz like that. And lots of women don't talk about their period with their boyfriend. So long as he understands what my history entails, it's as good as telling him in my book.

Sorry, I understand what you're saying and for about anyone else you'd be right. My situation and how I pass are entirely unique and specific to me. If I were 6 inches shorter and had a fuller figure, it wouldn't matter nearly as much. People see those girls as women no matter what, but for those a bit outside the binary it's totally different.

Ah! I know! It's crazy because I work in the town I grew up in and even with some people from highschool. One doesn't recognize and the other is too shy to tell anyone. My manager is forgetful and clearly forgot. I've worked there for two years and the paranoia was so pointless. I have already succeeded in general stealth and once I'm out of here deep stealth is inevitable.

As a young transitioner I don't have much of a record trail. But employers often have some form of privacy system. 98% stealth is pretty good.
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EllenJ2003

#15
Sorry I took so long to reply (work's been crazy the past few weeks, I got home late yesterday, and even went into work this morning [despite being a salaried employee - ugh!]).  With regards to keeping secrets from your SO (potential or actual) - weeeelllllll, yeah, in some cases to keep harmony in the house, you have to keep your mouth shut.  I'm just saying that for something as major as your transsexual past, he (or she for that matter) really should be told, because IMO, that's major league deception if you don't.  You don't necessarily have to discuss everything from your Before Time (and there's a good chance that if you do [unless he or she has known you since that time period], your SO will be rather uncomfortable hearing about it), but at least tell your SO that you have a transsexual past.

Regarding the records trail - I didn't have my name legal change until I was 37 years old (the much younger desired transition age didn't occur due to an active hostility, and a lack of support from my family, when I came out as a teenager in the late 70s, a lack of transition related resources available to me in college in the 80s [so much for the vaunted med school at my "progressive alma mater - the University of Wisconsin], and a lack of money till I was in my 30s [and on the verge of suicide, and still not having and adequate amount of money to afford both transitioning & SRS]).  So, I have a bit more of a paper trail from the Before Time than you do.  I don't know how much of an effect that has had on me (and I'm not about to ask).  For all I know, when I was hired at my present job back in 2004, my transsexual past came to light (in other words how much of a background check was performed).  My boss when I was hired (who is now an upper level corporate executive) never mentioned anything about my transsexual past, and I was not about to ask him (nor would I at the present time).  Document-wise, I got my name, birth certificate, money related things, (credit cards, bank accounts, etc.), academic transcripts (college only, since at the time I did it [in late 2000 - after my legal name change], it was thought that if you have college degrees, almost employers will check into those records, but ignore checking high school records), and employment records (my last job only, since I worked there for 13 years, before I moved to another city, and another job post-SRS).  Beyond those steps, there isn't much else I could do.  So far it seems to have done the job for me.
HRT Since 1999
Legal Name Change and Full Time in Dec. 2000
Orchiectomy in July 2001
SRS (Yaay!! :)) Nov. 25, 2003 by Suporn
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Memento

That's alright. I've really been overthinking this. I've never gotten far enough in a relationship to be physically intimate(sexting and phone sex aside). I've had my share of one night stands with guys with a fetish, but never a long term relationship. I've intentionally sabotaged my relationships in the past by explaining my situation as poorly as possible out of some sense of guilt for being who I am. I guess the biggest problem here is my self esteem. I'm absolutely confident in my transition, but in the back of mind I can't see myself as a woman. That probably stems from my location. Every day I hear the same old hateful crap about how bathrooms aren't safe anymore. Sometimes people confide in me about the big, scary men in dresses coming for them.

I'm probably looking for some sort of reassurance. I've seen Calico and a few others pulling this off and was hoping to hear from more. Burying this >-bleeped-< is how I get through life. It's not the healthiest way to live, but it's what makes me happy. It's the only time I feel like me. I'll keep to this path unless it becomes a problem. I'm sorry, I know you're trying to help me.

Aghhh! My Birth Certificate can't be changed as far as I know, but that's not the easiest document to get ahold of and there are usually alternatives. And my friend said he's never seen his wife's, so I'm not worried. I'm not some sort criminal or secret agent. How many people are going to dig that far into my past? Employers aside, that would be a be quite the violation of privacy. If an employer thinks I appear fraudulent, he can just not hire me. Once you settle in somewhere it's really hard to be found out!
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EllenJ2003

#17
I'm surprised you can't change your birth certificate, that must really suck.  Are you from outside of the US?  As far as I know, only some counties in Texas, and the states of Idaho and Ohio don't allow you to change your birth certificates. 

I live in Wisconsin (which is also where I was born and raised), and other than having to roll my own petition to go to court to get my birth certificate changed (maybe it's different nowadays, but back in Jan. 2004, there was no State of Wisconsin form/document you could fill out for the petition [the court employee told me I'd have roll my own] - but luckily I found a website, where they listed the legal wording that people had used in each state to petition for a change of sex on their birth certificates), all I had to do was show up in court, and it was one and done.  I spent more time waiting outside the court room, than I did in the court room.  The judge took a look at my petition, and signed & notarized surgeon's letter (there was no need for name change documentation - I had taken care of that 3 plus years earlier in court), said there was legal precedence to do what I wanted done (and informed the court clerk what sections of State of Wisconsin law to refer to in the court record for the legality of the act), and granted me the change in sex on my birth certificate.  I left the court room maybe 20 minutes after I went inside, and was on the road (in the middle of a heavy snowstorm) 10 minutes later, driving to job interview in another city.  Four or five weeks later, the new birth certificate showed up in the mail.
HRT Since 1999
Legal Name Change and Full Time in Dec. 2000
Orchiectomy in July 2001
SRS (Yaay!! :)) Nov. 25, 2003 by Suporn
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Memento

I was born in Ohio and I think ACLU and Lambda are trying to change that, but I won't get my hopes up. Those people are planning to die on that hill. I think Idaho might have just changed its ban? Maybe it was just for one person, but I'm not prepared or rich enough to sue. Ha ha. I'd come to terms with it before my coworkers brought up the lawsuit. I did manage to change my name on it, though!

I'm so jealous! The birth certificate thing left me in a deep depression for at least a year and it's the buggin' the >-bleeped-< out of me again now. But surgery's a lot better to me. It's something tangible, that can't be denied or debated. Maybe I can trick them or something into thinking it was a clerical error.

Oh well. You win some, you lose some. On to the next battle.
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EllenJ2003

Bummer!  I feel for you.  I knew Ohio was like that about birth certificates back when I started transitioning in late 1998, and it surprises me to this day, that the situation hasn't changed.  Wisconsin has allowed birth certificate changes after having SRS for at least 4 decades (probably longer - especially when you consider that one of Dr. Benjamin's first patients for SRS [way back in 1948], was a young woman from Wisconsin), and Ohio's been a state longer than Wisconsin has been one.
HRT Since 1999
Legal Name Change and Full Time in Dec. 2000
Orchiectomy in July 2001
SRS (Yaay!! :)) Nov. 25, 2003 by Suporn
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