FFS question

[skullsquid]

I've been lurking the forums for a while, I've used it to see what other people's experiences.
It's been extremely helpful.
However as with anything: 'your mileage may vary'.
So here I am to sort things out for myself specifically.

A little bit of background about myself:

I'm Troy, 33, MTF, I identify as non-binary, genderqueer and I prefer they/them pronouns.
I've started HRT more than two years ago. I'm openly trans and for the most accepted by family and friends. I'm in a committed relationship with my partner and they are 100% supportive of any decisions I may or may not make.
I have my bouts of depression and anxiety as anyone else but I can fortunately say that I'm not in a grim hopeless place in my life.

So as it stands I'm on the wait-list for GRS and there's no doubt in my mind that this is the right decision for me.
My demi-sexuality stems from severe genital dysphoria, so this is really not an issue that needs further introspection.

FFS has been one of those things that I keep going back and forth. Every time I hear about other people's positive experiences, it sends me on a tailspin of doubt as to whether I want to go down that route. Inevitably, I compare myself to others and that further exacerbates my anxiety.

I don't think it's about aesthetics, it seems to be more insidious than that. I look at myself and most days I'm ok with  being 'in-between' but some days I feel terrible and all I see are my masculine aspects of my face. Mind you, I have no desire to pass, but I'm not immune to societal pressures and I'm increasingly dissatisfied with being automatically gendered.

So my questions are thus:

How were your experiences with FFS?
Who are some of the best people in the LA area for these procedures? And who are the people to avoid?
Was it worth it? Did it ease some dysphoria?

And if you are non-binary identified would you consider FFS? If no, why?

Those are some questions I have for the time being.
I'm hoping to have an ongoing discussion here, especially since there are some interesting issues that arise with this that I'm not entirely sure I'm ready to bring up yet.

Thanks!

T

[Dani]

I had FFS a little over a year ago and I needed FFS, since I am a late transitioner and I identify as female. For someone who is non-binary, only you can make the decision as to rework your face or not. Maybe just a rhinoplasty is all you need.

I just took a good look in the mirror, made a few notes, then I consulted with a reputable surgeon, set a date and paid my money. My surgeon is on the east coast, so I can't comment on the west coast surgeons.

Was it worth it? For me, a definite yes and I would do it again if needed.

One word of caution, mirrors lie to us. I don't know if the problem is the angle of view or the reflection, but what I see in the mirror does not always match what I see when someone takes my picture. Have a friend take a picture of yourself and then take a good look at what others see.

[Kendra]

Previously when I was trying to decide, I purchased a set of FFS simulations from VirtualFFS.  The service is operated by an individual (Alexandra) who works closely with a few FFS surgeons in Europe. 

Some people have objected to the cost of VirtualFFS, but as a small fraction of FFS cost I think it's reasonable.  Alexandra has almost two decades' full time experience analyzing and simulating FFS.  Depends on what your plans are, or if the information may help you with an important decision. 

[skullsquid]

Dani:

I think the last bit is exactly what I'm afraid of. I'm the least objective person when it comes to 'seeing' myself. Not that I think that it is inherently unique to me. I think anyone has a hard time seeing themselves in an unbiased way.
I guess with being non-binary it becomes more of a personal preference and less of an imperative. However I don't know if my attitudes will evolve in the future either so my end goals at the moment are to blur the lines as much as possible where people cannot attribute gender easily.
I will set up a couple of consults and see what the surgeons have to tell me. I honestly think I can get away with brow reduction and softening of the chin and be ok with everything else. But we'll see.

Kendra:

For that price I might as well pay consultation fees for a surgeon or two, they would provide the same service that that person is. But thank you nonetheless for the info.

[Kendra]

> For that price I might as well pay consultation fees for a surgeon or two, they would provide the same service that that person is. But thank you nonetheless for the info.

That doesn't quite fit what I experienced.  I visited two FFS surgeons, the information they provided was good but a different type of information. Each eval was about 30 minutes with the surgeon plus an hour of assistants' time.  The result was a cost estimate and a non-visual description of work.  One estimate involved CT scans and the surgeon drew on the bone structure showing where changes would be made.  Many surgeons charge for FFS evals, I think that's reasonable since it's time taken away from surgery or post-op followup with patients.

Alexandra spent several days working on my photos and created a set showing how different procedures would change appearance from front, angle, and side - and a detailed description of before/after evaluation.

Surgeons' evals are best in person.  FFS simulation photos don't involve the time and cost of travel.

[Colleen_definitely]

I agree, Alexandra's report was very enlightening for me.  It's not perfect but it was much less of a hassle than visiting a doc.

[skullsquid]

So two for two for Alexandra's services.
I'll mull it over.

[Maybebaby56]

I've been lurking the forums for a while, I've used it to see what other people's experiences.
It's been extremely helpful.
However as with anything: 'your mileage may vary'.
So here I am to sort things out for myself specifically.

A little bit of background about myself:

I'm Troy, 33, MTF, I identify as non-binary, genderqueer and I prefer they/them pronouns.
I've started HRT more than two years ago. I'm openly trans and for the most accepted by family and friends. I'm in a committed relationship with my partner and they are 100% supportive of any decisions I may or may not make.
I have my bouts of depression and anxiety as anyone else but I can fortunately say that I'm not in a grim hopeless place in my life.

So as it stands I'm on the wait-list for GRS and there's no doubt in my mind that this is the right decision for me.
My demi-sexuality stems from severe genital dysphoria, so this is really not an issue that needs further introspection.

FFS has been one of those things that I keep going back and forth. Every time I hear about other people's positive experiences, it sends me on a tailspin of doubt as to whether I want to go down that route. Inevitably, I compare myself to others and that further exacerbates my anxiety.

I don't think it's about aesthetics, it seems to be more insidious than that. I look at myself and most days I'm ok with  being 'in-between' but some days I feel terrible and all I see are my masculine aspects of my face. Mind you, I have no desire to pass, but I'm not immune to societal pressures and I'm increasingly dissatisfied with being automatically gendered.

So my questions are thus:

How were your experiences with FFS?
Who are some of the best people in the LA area for these procedures? And who are the people to avoid?
Was it worth it? Did it ease some dysphoria?

And if you are non-binary identified would you consider FFS? If no, why?

Those are some questions I have for the time being.
I'm hoping to have an ongoing discussion here, especially since there are some interesting issues that arise with this that I'm not entirely sure I'm ready to bring up yet.

Thanks!

T

Hi Troy,

As a veteran of FFS, I was going to offer you advice, but after reading your post several times, I think it is you who is going to be educating me.

So let's recapitulate:

You are non-binary but you are sure you want a vagina.

You are in a committed relationship, but don't say if your partner is male or female.

You have no desire to pass (as female, I presume) but do not like being automatically gendered (as male, I presume).

You compare yourself to others (you don't mention if they are MtF transgenders, or genderqueer, or what) and that make you anxious that you don't look... more feminine?

Plus, you aren't able to provide a picture, but you want advice as to whether you should undergo a costly and painful surgical procedure.

Okay, then I have two questions for you.

1. Who is driving these decisions you are contemplating, you or your partner?
2. If you could be anything you wanted, just closing your eyes and snapping your fingers, what would you look like? Who would you be?  A gender-fluid woman? An effeminate man with a vagina?  What is your goal? 

Notice I said "goal", not "dream".  The difference between a goal and a dream is having a plan.

With kindness,

Terri

   

[skullsquid]

Hi Troy,

As a veteran of FFS, I was going to offer you advice, but after reading your post several times, I think it is you who is going to be educating me.

So let's recapitulate:

You are non-binary but you are sure you want a vagina.

You are in a committed relationship, but don't say if your partner is male or female.

You have no desire to pass (as female, I presume) but do not like being automatically gendered (as male, I presume).

You compare yourself to others (you don't mention if they are MtF transgenders, or genderqueer, or what) and that make you anxious that you don't look... more feminine?

Plus, you aren't able to provide a picture, but you want advice as to whether you should undergo a costly and painful surgical procedure.

Okay, then I have two questions for you.

1. Who is driving these decisions you are contemplating, you or your partner?
2. If you could be anything you wanted, just closing your eyes and snapping your fingers, what would you look like? Who would you be?  A gender-fluid woman? An effeminate man with a vagina?  What is your goal? 

Notice I said "goal", not "dream".  The difference between a goal and a dream is having a plan.

With kindness,

Terri

Hey Terri,

Thanks for taking time to respond, I'll try my best to cover all the points you brought as best as I can.
Also to preface this beforehand, not everything I'm doing has to make sense to others, just to me.

Being non-binary has to do with my gender expression. My issue is with my biological sex, not my gender expression.
So wanting a vagina instead of a penis is congruous in my mind.

My partner is female, but I try not not use any pronouns. I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to pronouns.

I present most days as what you would think of as 'male', however my everyday wardrobe is actually neutral and is unisex. This is more practical than anything because I ride a motorcycle most days and I need to wear protection to ride. On my other days I'm just as comfortable wearing a suit as I am wearing a dress in public. I wear light makeup when I have time regardless of attire. The reason I say I have no desire to pass as female is because I'm comfortable with my gender expression being fluid. I like the idea of going back and forth. I do have a deep aversion to being male, specifically biologically male.

I compare myself primarily to genderqueer MTF especially when extremely androgynous. But I do that as well with MTF transfolk who arguably pass very well. So yes I'd like to look more feminine when it comes to my features.

The reason I wasn't putting pictures up is because I have a mental image of myself that is very different to how other people see me. So unfortunately unless there's a way for me to see myself like others do, people's reassurances are not going to cut it. But for the purpose of continuing the conversation I've attached two pictures of myself.

Finally to answer your questions:

1. The decision is being driven solely by me. It is my internal monologue that has been plaguing me since I knew who I was and wasn't. My partner has never voiced any desire for me to do anything to change for them and would never do that to me.

2. If by some magic I could get my wish, my ideal would be androgynous bio female.
My goal is to get closer to that by being genderfluid and making myself androgynous and ambiguous, within the limits of reality.

Hope that clears some stuff up and again these are my opinions and ideas and don't necessarily apply to anyone but myself. So I apologize if I offend anyone, that was not my intent.

Thanks.

T

[Maybebaby56]

Hey Terri,

Thanks for taking time to respond, I'll try my best to cover all the points you brought as best as I can.
Also to preface this beforehand, not everything I'm doing has to make sense to others, just to me.

Being non-binary has to do with my gender expression. My issue is with my biological sex, not my gender expression.
So wanting a vagina instead of a penis is congruous in my mind.

My partner is female, but I try not not use any pronouns. I'd rather give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to pronouns.

I present most days as what you would think of as 'male', however my everyday wardrobe is actually neutral and is unisex. This is more practical than anything because I ride a motorcycle most days and I need to wear protection to ride. On my other days I'm just as comfortable wearing a suit as I am wearing a dress in public. I wear light makeup when I have time regardless of attire. The reason I say I have no desire to pass as female is because I'm comfortable with my gender expression being fluid. I like the idea of going back and forth. I do have a deep aversion to being male, specifically biologically male.

I compare myself primarily to genderqueer MTF especially when extremely androgynous. But I do that as well with MTF transfolk who arguably pass very well. So yes I'd like to look more feminine when it comes to my features.

The reason I wasn't putting pictures up is because I have a mental image of myself that is very different to how other people see me. So unfortunately unless there's a way for me to see myself like others do, people's reassurances are not going to cut it. But for the purpose of continuing the conversation I've attached two pictures of myself.

Finally to answer your questions:

1. The decision is being driven solely by me. It is my internal monologue that has been plaguing me since I knew who I was and wasn't. My partner has never voiced any desire for me to do anything to change for them and would never do that to me.

2. If by some magic I could get my wish, my ideal would be androgynous bio female.
My goal is to get closer to that by being genderfluid and making myself androgynous and ambiguous, within the limits of reality.

Hope that clears some stuff up and again these are my opinions and ideas and don't necessarily apply to anyone but myself. So I apologize if I offend anyone, that was not my intent.

Thanks.

T

Dear Troy,

Thank you! As I said, I think you are providing more of an education to me than to any extent I can pass my experience on to you.

My initial reactions:

You are good looking.  I would go for you without caring what gender you identify as. I like your style.  I like how you responded to me without ego or defensiveness.  It tells me you are centered.

Your decision to put GCS first does not bother your partner?  How sublime.  That is the truest test of intimacy, I think. I am learning how to be a lesbian, if that makes any sense. I am seeking love and intimacy and have dated men and women. I find men easy to please but harder to be intimate with.  Women are easy for me to be intimate with, but I am at a loss how to please them.

Your skin is clear and healthy, but you jawline, brow and nose will need work to be perceived as feminine.  t will be expensive, and not covered by insurance. I consulted with Dr. Harrison Lee, but he is very expensive, as are most Beverly Hills surgeons.  If you are intent on staying in the LA area, Dr Gary Alter is another well-known surgeon, as is Dr Alexander Sinclair.

I hope that helps.

~Terri

[Drexy/Drex]

Well concerning the virtual ffs , for myself it was well worth it money well spent I had the pictures that morph your present face to post face as well
that was interesting, in fact the vffs helped me.make the decision ..
I consider myself nonbinary atm and when I met my surgeon I asked him to aim for androgynous as i felt my frame size was too large  for a petite face etc...I still get sir'd but then I'm maybe 5 mths hrt,
I think you would do well with ffs
Ps love the fashion

[Rachel]

How were your experiences with FFS?
Who are some of the best people in the LA area for these procedures? And who are the people to avoid?
Was it worth it? Did it ease some dysphoria?

And if you are non-binary identified would you consider FFS? If no, why?

I had extensive FFS. I would definitely have stayed a third day in the hospital or had a person with me or a visiting nurse stop in the extended stay. I had a reaction to OXI and puked for the third day; I was miserable and became very depressed.

Post FFS I am very happy. I had a face lift with FFS but as I was told having a face lift lower and mid during bone work will not yield the same result as having the face lift 1 year after FFS. I will be having some tightening again in the future. 

As far as dysphoria reduction HRT helped, FFS was needed to live comfortable as myself female and well as hair transplants. GCS showed me how sever my dysphoria was. Post GCS I felt a peace I have never felt; difficult for words to describe. I would describe it as watching a seagull glide against the backdrop of a beach on a warm day with the most gentlest of breeze .

I went to Dr. Spiegel in Boston. In retrospect I had thoughts of going to PAI or Spain but was too timid to do such at the time (not now). I think I would have done things differently. I would have done FFS in three stages. Upper then lower work then face lift.  I would go to one place for the upper and another for the lower and a third for the lower and mid face lift. There are people that do some things so well and others good. I would pick the best for each part. It would ease the recovery too.

I have to say my lips, lip lift and blethoplasty I have receive compliments from two doctors (one does FFS).  Definitely not what you asked but my thoughts on the matter.

My gender is binary.