"HRT" options for non-binary? (and my intro!)

[Nevoxia]

I have only very recently come to the conclusion that I am non-binary or something like it. I am so new at this, I don't know all the terms, and therefore I may not use the right ones...

I am 33 years old, AMAB. Until 6 months ago, I strongly suspected that I was MtF transgender but too scared/in-denial to transition. Then 6 months ago I made up my mind to be courageous and finally go through with it. Over the last 6 months I have been on spiro first, then estradiol 3 months ago.

In the short period of time I have seen surprisingly quick changes, like breast development and skin improvement, and the loss of my libido as well as my "spontaneous" (random) erections. Most of these were all very welcome changes, and I have never felt more pleased with my body or more satisfied with what I see in the mirror. (I don't think I actually need/want breasts...)

But then something unexpected started to happen. I haven't changed my style of dress or the way I present myself at all, but people have started to occasionally gender me with terms like "ma'am" and "she". I thought I would be happy about this, but it frightens and disturbs me. I have no idea why... so I am trying to understand it. I think it may be because it suddenly became "too real"? and I fear what I am giving up...? I never really saw myself having children, but now the prospect of "never" and "can't" are painful to think about.

Looking more introspectively than ever, I think all I really want is female characteristics like the hair, skin, complexion, and fat distribution... but not necessarily breasts or to be gendered female, loss of fertility....
I realize I am entering the territory of "you can't have your cake and eat it, too"... But I have recently questioned why "HRT" is treated as "all or nothing", at least as far as I have found. My doctor in particular is closed-minded and won't even consider changing dosages or medications.

So finally, my question...

Is there any standard or working model for a non-binary individual to have their androgen and estrogen levels more balanced/neutral? Is it possible, or even healthy, for an AMAB individual to have their androgens only partially reduced/blocked while supplementing estrogens? I realize these hormones often work against each other, like testosterone blocking breast development.... but it seems like if one could strike the right balance of medications, one could balance the effects of the hormones. In particular, I want to know if I could keep my estrogen supplemented enough to have some hair and skin improvements, while keeping my testosterone just high enough, just at the minimal level to maintain fertility. (after 6 months on spiro, it may already be too late, but I have kept a very low dose of spiro, so I maintain hope that my fertility is still salvageable)

If anyone has done this, or heard of this, I would love to know how. And if anyone here can recommend any medical sites or studies about this, I would love to read them.

[Dena]

The problem is sex hormones are pretty binary. Both hormones if present at sufficient levels will block the other. In a MTF, testosterone can be blocked by estrogen and for a FTM, estrogen can be blocked by testosterone. About the only truly neutral approach is to block the bodies natural hormone and have very low levels of estrogen or testosterone. Genetics also enter into the picture so not only is the saying you can have your cake and eat it is true, but you also can't chose the flavor. Your only option is to chose a hormone and a dosage then hope for the best but expect the worst.

[Nevoxia]

That's what I was afraid of.
If there really is no kind of non-binary hormonal condition, and if forced to choose, I would choose estrogen.
I guess the (only?) solution would be to come off my hormone treatment for now and bank my fertility (when I can afford it), and then eventually go back on the standard MTF hormone treatment with the "hope for the best" plan.

The main thing that scares me about that is that I would expect switching back and forth between hormonal paradigms may permanently stunt and sabotage my potential even more than it already is.

[LaserGirl]

I don't think this is weird at all.  I think this is normal for some who have been successful in a male body for so long.   Maybe you can go on spiro only for a while and get laser hair removal or reduce your E dosage.  I have read about growing breasts causing more dysphoria so there are also surgical options there. I'm glad to hear others are having the same concerns I am.  You are not alone.

[AJ]

It is not weird at all.
I am 64 and I knew 14 years ago I was transgender but couldn't/didn't want to be entirely female.
6 months ago I couldn't take it anymore as my mind was pushing me towards suicide if I didn't do something.
As a mostly very, very happy person the thought that suicide was talking to me, tempting me, enticing me, it scared me.
I sought counseling from three different counselors and two helped me identify my gender dysphoria.
One led me to a doctor who helped me get onto HRT.
Now I can never go back because I finally feel like myself in heart, body and mind but I had to go through these events, doubts and steps as they were "my path."
I am part male because I have 64 years of male habits even though I didn't like a lot of that maleness.
There are parts of that maleness that I do like and I plan on keeping.
I am part female as I have breasts and my body is shaping very nicely (with work) into a womanly figure.
What I see in myself is the most important part for me visually and I no longer care what anyone else thinks about my transition.
My hair is longer, my skin is softer and I present as an androgynous male.
I am not "out" to my family except to my wife who has been great and we now seem closer than ever.
To my children and grandchildren I am and will remain dad and grandpa.
When I step out of the shower and I look in the mirror, and see myself, I already look very female.
Inside, I feel and think female and my mind seems clearer, sharper and quicker than it ever was on testosterone.
It to me seems like an analogy to my bass boat that runs on premium gas.
It will run on regular gas for a while but it will run rough and it most certainly will break down in time.
That's where I was - I was running on the wrong fuel and I was breaking down.
Fortunately for me, I was able to change my "fuel" before I completely broke down.
The rest of my life I will live on estrogen as me feeling female, hiding it most of the time and being in the middle as non-binary.
Since I couldn't see or envision myself as totally female, I'm pretty good with that.
AJ

[Tess100]

I identify with being non binary and I am doing HRT, E only.   At this point I don't plan to transition fully. To soon to say how it is going to go long term but I can't imagine not taking estrogen. The beginning effects on the mind are working for me.

[AnonyMs]

I don't think I'm non-binary, but I have been on HRT for 10 years without socially transitioning. If a doctor told me I couldn't do that I'd just find another one.

You should be able to adjust your dosage - see this thread on low dose hrt

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,130268.0.html

The WPATH Standards of Care mention non-binary identities (using the term genderqueer among others). This is best practices for the treatment of transgender people.

[Sideways]

I hope you're still around to read this. I just posted about my nonbinary HRT choices. Bicalutamide for the AA, which is less likely affect fertility than other AAs, and raloxifene rather than estrogen, which blocks estrogen receptors in breast tissue.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,242511.0.html

Does this fit your goals?

[Zoe_Kay]

But then something unexpected started to happen. I haven't changed my style of dress or the way I present myself at all, but people have started to occasionally gender me with terms like "ma'am" and "she". I thought I would be happy about this, but it frightens and disturbs me. I have no idea why... so I am trying to understand it. I think it may be because it suddenly became "too real"? and I fear what I am giving up...? I never really saw myself having children, but now the prospect of "never" and "can't" are painful to think about.

Hi!  I think there are a few reasons for this.  One is that you may have already had an androgynous feel to you before and did not realize it.  Another is that the smell of your body is one of the first things to change, then your skin quality changes.  Combine all of these together and people may start to call you M'am, her, and she!

But after years of social conditioning, many of us freak out a bit the first time someone addresses us as something other than what we were assigned at birth.  Its been happening to me most of my life so its not such a shocker. 

Just the other day a few couples walked past me in a public place and I could hear them talking about whether I am a man or a woman.  If I had not been so tired already, I would have stopped them and said the answer to their question is Yes!

[Artistic_Gene]

When I was on T, I had blood thickening that caused me to have to go back off of it. I found out though that starting off with E, then getting on T, then going back to my natural hormones worked out okay in terms of a sort of nonbinary way about hormones. Maybe being on one a while then going back to your body's hormonal output might help, or a very low dose of E might do the trick too.

I hear some folks in my real life talk about asking about just hormone blockers, but I never followed up so I'm unsure if that is an option actually available. It may be a decent nonbinary way to go about it. Just be sure to keep up on any vitamins or nutrients that having a lack of sex hormones might cause. Doctors will have the best answers to that.

[male2me]

I don't know if this is still something you're interested in, but I just saw this post and thought it was worth commenting!

I'm on E and finasteride. It's only been 4 months, but I have noticed changes in my face and softening in regards to my skin. However, my breast growth has been minimal, and I'm fairly sure I'm still fertile (my sexual function and everything else hasn't changed, so I can only assume). Many people insist hormones are inherently binary and you can't "pick and choose," but this has not been my experience.

[GordonG]

I don't know if this is still something you're interested in, but I just saw this post and thought it was worth commenting!

I'm on E and finasteride. It's only been 4 months, but I have noticed changes in my face and softening in regards to my skin. However, my breast growth has been minimal, and I'm fairly sure I'm still fertile (my sexual function and everything else hasn't changed, so I can only assume). Many people insist hormones are inherently binary and you can't "pick and choose," but this has not been my experience.

4 months isn't enough time to be sure about anything.

[Linde]

I am on the highest possible dose of Finasteride for over 6 years now and I have the higher level of natural estrogen cause by my syndrome.  I have natural breasts, and lost fertility about a year after I started Finasterite.  My genitals shrank dramatically to the extend that I cannot have intercourse for quite a while now.  It is a blessing that I am more or less asexual with a lesbian leaning, and my libido is somewhere in the lower basement!

I think that the non functional sexual part is mainly caused by Finasteride.

[Drexy/Drex]

i think feelings are quite normal.. that is how i wish things could be..... but now im quite accustomed to estrogen
and welcome the changes.... the sex dept can be annoying but i haven't tried anything since i started 18 mths ago
i,ve been madamed  a few times in bangkok but its always sir in australia....mind you i dress pretty butch
but where theres a will theres a way so keep searching
i like being androgynous and i dont mind my breasts

[Lexi B]

Reading this thread makes me feel so much less alone! I'm soo glad I'm not the only one. Gender dysphoria is hard. Loneliness is harder. Thanks everyone for your stories. I'm not the OP, but your words have helped heal me too

[Sno]

Reading this thread makes me feel so much less alone! I'm soo glad I'm not the only one. Gender dysphoria is hard. Loneliness is harder. Thanks everyone for your stories. I'm not the OP, but your words have helped heal me too

And that, hon, is why we're here.

Just knowing there are other folk out there who get this, who understand, empathise is deeply reassuring and comforting in an undescribable way.

(Hugs), welcome

Rowan

[GordonG]

And that, hon, is why we're here.

Just knowing there are other folk out there who get this, who understand, empathise is deeply reassuring and comforting in an undescribable way.

(Hugs), welcome

Rowan

Amen!

[Finding Lauren]

Hey AJ you started HRT so late, but you said you have breasts.  I was told you lose a cup size for every 10 years after 12.  Can you tell us how big are you?  I am late, but not yet on HRT, and I thought that meant zero development.

Oh, and Sideways do you get the greater emotions and feminine interests, you know the mental changes on rolaxifine? 


Lauren

[AJ]

Hey AJ you started HRT so late, but you said you have breasts.  I was told you lose a cup size for every 10 years after 12.  Can you tell us how big are you?  I am late, but not yet on HRT, and I thought that meant zero development.

Oh, and Sideways do you get the greater emotions and feminine interests, you know the mental changes on rolaxifine? 


Lauren

Lauren,
I did start late, and I know that I am one of the lucky ones to have growth this good.
Biggest part of that is genetics as my Mom was very, very big.
Her breasts were too big, and she had lots of back pain from the weight of them.
She always wanted surgery to reduce them but it never happened for her.
I don't remember exactly but I believe she was around a 44D or bigger.
So far, I am at 38C and I am half way into my 2 years or so of development.
I haven't measured for about 6 weeks so I might be bigger than that but at my age, I do not expect too much more growth.
I talked to my doctor yesterday and she said that I still have some growth and fat distribution yet to happen.
She said that my nipples haven't really started yet but that should happen soon.
My boobs have hurt without stopping since the first month of HRT.
My doctor said that she can tell that my skin is clearer and softer, and I love that.
I also love that I smell so much better.
My mom, her sister and my grandfather all had Alzheimer's so I eat different (low carbs) from the way they did and without testosterone, I no longer need anti-perspirants.
They all ate high carb/low fat diets and used antiperspirants.
My waist is clearing of fat and "new" fat is starting to work its way to my butt (Yay!).
I want curves!!!
I wear a vest or, a compression shirt (rarely) and/or loose clothing to hide them as I am "out" to only my immediate family and not the world.
Even though I hide them, I would like a little more growth.
I transition for me, I exercise a lot by lifting weights, doing Pilates and walking 5 to 8 miles a day.
I am 5'11" have lost 42 pounds, down from 210 and am now at 168 to 172 and that seems to fluctuate.
I want to get to 157 which I haven't been trying to do for the past 2 months.
The Pilates, walking and weights will make me look better than just losing weight, so I am very motivated to exercise.
When I try to lose the weight, it happens with plateaus or shelves that stairstep down at about 4 pounds every 2-3 months.
I have goals for how I want to look and my timetable to complete my weight loss goal is 6-8 months from now.
I am what Dr. Ann Vitale describes as a 3rd category of M2F transgender.
I struggle with complete transition and at 65 my old maleness habits are difficult to shed.
http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
I am unsure if I will ever fully transition although I did have my orchie 4 weeks ago which should help with my feminization goals.
Sorry for the long reply...
Hugs!
AJ

[Finding Lauren]

Wow AJ,

You are doing so well.
I felt I had little hope and stayed completely in the closet.  But then for health reasons I began losing weight.  I had forgotten that some say that is important for looking feminine.  Well, I feel better and have got some hope back.  I cannot wait to reach my goal, say by mid summer.
You didn't mention mental changes on HRT.  Did you get more emotional and empathetic?  Did some of your interests change?  Sorry for asking, but this is an important part in my decision.


Cheering you,

Lauren