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Is death not merciful?

Started by Nero, December 27, 2007, 03:29:35 AM

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Nero

If you answered yes to this question: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,23768.msg179675.html#new

I ask you - If death is considered mercy for physical pain and suffering (we put mortally wounded animals out of their misery, even when they'll die in less than an hour), can it not be merciful for mental suffering?
Even moreso for one suffering from both physical and mental agony?

If the pain is too great and the individual is already dead and cold inside...
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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NicholeW.

Not everyone considers it so, dear man. Death is never an end? It seems to be... another transition? 

One in which I take yet another form. My energy, dissipates toward another node. My body begins to decay, to change to yet another configuration of material it was not in before.

Pain and suffering we think of as being always with us. Perhaps the degree of them that we can accept and live with are different to us all. 

I know that my paternal grandmother lived and worked down to ten days before she died. She was making breakfast one morning in 1950 and passed out at her stove. Taken to the hospital she had tests performed and a determination made that she had been having excruciating abdominal pains that finally caused her to pass out.

A surgeon performed an exploratory investigation. Sewed her back up. Abdominal cancer that was estimated to have eaten her stomach to about 90%. She never left that hospital.

She had never stated her pain to either of my two aunts who lived with her. Just passed out and then passed away. I have never been able to quite understand her ability to continue through what must have been horrible for her. You see, my threshold for physical pain is much less than her's must have been.

I admire that ability she had. And when my grandfather died in in 1940, in a car accident, he left her with five children -- the youngest was six and the oldest was twenty. But the oldest was also developmentally delayed. My grandmother finished the raising of those children over the next eleven years. I'm sure she never expected to be doing that alone.

I don't know exactly what she had expected. Her father had been well-off and doted on her. I have a picture of her when she was eighteen. She was lovely and from all I have heard one might have expected her to be other than a housewife and shopkeeper. I have another picture of her made six months before she died.

Her body was still thin; her features were still delicate and lovely. Yet, I can also see where the years had worn themselves into her. They had moulded and changed her, the lively spirit of youth had been tempered by work and childbirth and death into the features of a different woman, perhaps a much older sister of that girl.

I wasn't around to get to know her at all. So, I cannot frame answers to your question based on her life and death. It was a different time and place. I have a different view of things.

I know this. You have touched me and I have no sense that you are already 'dead and cold inside.' I doubt that she was either. The similarities I see are that there are strengths you both shared. A willingness to give of yourselves and to help others, to live with pain and to arise each day and hope that in some way today will be better than was yesterday.

I have read her diaries. Mostly just struggles to make ends meet and to raise as best she could children who she worried about. She had few worries about herself. But, it was a different time and place. I imagine that I couldn't do what she did. I have doubts that most anyone these days could. Life in Middle Tennessee for her was what she knew: a sense that to struggle and try to succeed was somehow an ultimate test of one's mettle.

I know that I would have you remain in-touch with me for a longer period of time than we have been in-touch. I know I would learn more from and about you than I know now. It's not that I feel death does not become a rational choice. Reason has no part in my desire. Emotional attachment has much to do with my desire. 

It's strange. You are a set of words, a series of BB interactions that I have come to feel and know as Nero. Someone I have come to care for and to appreciate for his strength and resilience. She was a set of diaries, a rumor almost, about whom I heard stories when I was young. She was someone whose bone-structure and features I share in. Someone who managed to give life to my father and so, later, to give life to me.

You I find so much more important.

I wish I had some sort of answer for you, Nero. I wish I could show you your possibility and pass along some ultimate hope to you that would take away your doubts and pain. Alas, I am incapable. I can only say to you that you matter, very much, you matter as someone I am coming to regard fondly and with affection. You are for me, a brother, a friend, a strength.

Is there a point at which life becomes untenable? Is there a point at which we should allow another to go due to the pain and exhaustion with struggle they experience? I suspect that there is. It's difficult to say when I arrive at that point, when they arrive there. For my struggle on this end is not a struggle with established equations and logical process, with weights that can be scientifically compared and evaluated.

Instead, my struggle with your question is this. Would I have this person live on and continue to help me make it through days and days? Would I want this person somehow gone so I could never speak with him again, never hope to see his face and hear his voice?

The answer to that question comes through and from my heart, my dear man. The answer is 'no.' For, you see, in that regard I am selfish and filled with my own sense of loss in simply contemplating your questions. You see, I am not as strong and as selfless as that Katherine who once made my life possible. I do not wish to feel the pain I should feel were you no longer here or somewhere I could not reach. I have no wish to give up the hope of hugging you someday

In some ways you have managed to touch me, and I have enjoyed that touch. I would not have it go away. But those are all heart reasons. No logic, no fantastic argument from reason can I apply to your questions. All I can apply to them is my heart, my care and, yes, my love.

I will answer then, no, death is not merciful, not when I am thinking of yours.

Hugs,

Nichole

Quote from: Nero on December 27, 2007, 03:29:35 AM

I ask you - If death is considered mercy for physical pain and suffering (we put mortally wounded animals out of their misery, even when they'll die in less than an hour), can it not be merciful for mental suffering?
Even moreso for one suffering from both physical and mental agony?

If the pain is too great and the individual is already dead and cold inside...
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Pica Pica

Oddly I said that mental suffering is greater, but yet I do not think someone should be 'released' from it. The brain is in flux, even in the darkest times there is little good bits. The mind retains the capacity for joy, content can not be eaten away like that lady's stomach.
And people who are cold and dead inside do not feel pain, I've seen them, I serve them drinks. Those people are lifeless and death would neither be release nor burden. Because those people are dead already.
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Nero on December 27, 2007, 03:29:35 AM
If you answered yes to this question: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,23768.msg179675.html#new

I ask you - If death is considered mercy for physical pain and suffering (we put mortally wounded animals out of their misery, even when they'll die in less than an hour), can it not be merciful for mental suffering?
Even moreso for one suffering from both physical and mental agony?

If the pain is too great and the individual is already dead and cold inside...

Of course death is a merciful end to life.  To be tied to this vail of tears forever would be a curse indeed.  But it is not for us to choose the manner and timing of our deaths.  To live in joy is glory.  To live in pain is glory.  To meet our end with courage is glory.  To escape this life at our own hands is cowardis.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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RebeccaFog

No one who feels pain is cold and dead inside.
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Nero

Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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IsabelleStPierre

Hum...

As someone who has attempted suicide 5 times in my life over the mental pain and anguish I have often found myself under...there are time that...for me at least...I think death would be preferable to continuing on in such a painful existence...so for me I would have to say yes, death can be merciful...

But...their's almost always a but isn't there??...mental states are not a constant in our lives and things can change that can end the mental pain and anguish...the key I believe is recognizing that we have a problem to start with and seeking help...so while when I have been so depressed and suicidal...it's only a temporary state of mind and death is what most would call a permament solution to a temporary problem...so I am torn in two directions by this question...

Peace and love,
Izzy
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Nero on December 27, 2007, 09:18:31 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 27, 2007, 08:28:34 PM
No one who feels pain is cold and dead inside.

Why?
Because the capacity to truly feel pain is the same capacity to truly feel joy.

         Pain is a symptom whether it is physical or if it's emotional.  Symptoms are warning signs that something is wrong and that it should be righted.  Pain is a call for healing.  If someone were cold and dead inside, they would not have the pain that tells them something is wrong.  Pain is a plea for healing. Healing is life.


I hope I'm not being enigmatic.  That's not what I'm going for.


Love,


Rebis

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Steph

We influence our lives, we should be able to influence our death, for death is an undeniable truth.

Steph
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RebeccaFog

QuoteIs death not merciful?
Not once you receive the bill.
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IsabelleStPierre

Quote from: Steph on December 27, 2007, 10:29:11 PMWe influence our lives, we should be able to influence our death, for death is an undeniable truth.

Steph

An interesting thought Steph...and who is to say that when someone commits suicide that it was in fact just not their time to go?? I mean if it's truly someone's time to go and they don't commit suicide...wouldn't they just die by some other method??

Just some thoughts that went through my mind...

Peace and love,
Izzy
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RebeccaFog

QuoteIs death not merciful?

I don't know, but I'm certainly not letting it into my car.    [/eyebrow wiggle]
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Rebis on December 27, 2007, 09:50:26 PM


Because the capacity to truly feel pain is the same capacity to truly feel joy.

       
I hope I'm not being enigmatic.  That's not what I'm going for.


Love,


Rebis

No enigma there, Rebis. Opposites are simply, so to speak, the different sides of a single coin. Same coin, just different perceptions of it from different angles.
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tekla

If only the people who died, or were about to die could speak to us.  Opps, they do.  They say (scream) Let me live!

To be sure, I'm willing to bet that more people who have died would have wished to live, than the other way round.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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lisagurl

QuoteIs death not merciful?

It is inevitable, at that point you are not able to care.
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Rebis on December 27, 2007, 09:50:26 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 27, 2007, 09:18:31 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 27, 2007, 08:28:34 PM
No one who feels pain is cold and dead inside.
Why?
Because the capacity to truly feel pain is the same capacity to truly feel joy.
The world is a place of true pain and true joy.  We are made equally for both.  To reject either is to reject both.

Quote from: Steph on December 27, 2007, 10:29:11 PM
We influence our lives, we should be able to influence our death, for death is an undeniable truth.

Steph
Well, ya.  I intend to influence my death by pissing off some right winger to the point that he shoots me.  I'm not doing this in order to die.  I'm doing it because I want to be alive now.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Steph

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 28, 2007, 10:11:34 AM
Quote from: Steph on December 27, 2007, 10:29:11 PM
We influence our lives, we should be able to influence our death, for death is an undeniable truth.

Steph
Well, ya.  I intend to influence my death by pissing off some right winger to the point that he shoots me.  I'm not doing this in order to die.  I'm doing it because I want to be alive now.

Hmm, what a strange way to want to die!

Steph
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Steph on December 28, 2007, 12:14:15 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 28, 2007, 10:11:34 AM
Quote from: Steph on December 27, 2007, 10:29:11 PM
We influence our lives, we should be able to influence our death, for death is an undeniable truth.

Steph
Well, ya.  I intend to influence my death by pissing off some right winger to the point that he shoots me.  I'm not doing this in order to die.  I'm doing it because I want to be alive now.

Hmm, what a strange way to want to die!

Steph

Indeed!! Suicide by redneck? A little-known corollary to "Suicide by cop?!!"
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Sheila

I have tried, not to hard as I was not successful, three times, the last time I ended up in the hospital. I don't want to die anymore, I want to live. I do believe in mercy death. I don't believe that it would have anything to do with mental illness. I was thinking more in the lines of Cancer and you know you have only limited time on the planet and the last part will be not pleasent. I do know that the next time that I decide to leave, it will happen. I have learned. Not planning anything.
Sheila
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Pica Pica

I expect to die of a heart attack before retirement on my 65th birthday.
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