HRT thread with a difference

[Moonflower]

Thanks Sylvia for the update. Hooray for the liver test results! My spouse's bilirubin always tests too high, and some doctors have gone wild trying to track down why, with only the answer: we're all different.

So sorry that you've been in a rough stretch. Glad that you checked in with us anyway.

Missing your husband's maleness is something I can't relate to. I'm increasingly discovering that I might not be as bisexual as I thought. I might be a lesbian. That would help me understand why I don't feel like I'm losing anything; I feel like I'm gaining a lot. I'm enjoying seeing her femininity become more conspicuous as she thinks a lot about how to come all of the way out of the closet.

I wonder whatever made me think that I was a heterosexual...

So, to help me relate to where you're coming from, I'm imagining, what if my spouse discovers that we were wrong? What if he discovers that he is a man? I'll give that some thought. Now I'm feeling a little silly, selfish, and shallow...

So, maybe the reason why I think that my spouse is more attractive as she becomes more feminine, is because I'm more attracted to women than I realized, not just because she is being more honestly expressive of who she is.

I hope that the two of you find a way to reconnect and update each other soon. It must be so hard for you to see him struggling, and not know what's going on. In the meantime, I send comfort, as well as I can.

[GordonG]

Sylvia

I just read this whole thread and have to comment. You'll notice that I use a male name on this forum. As you describe your husband, you could be describing me. I've not had a major thing about transitioning at all at any time in my life. And don't intend to. I will admit to thinking that "I wish I was born a female", quite a few times though.

My journey started out by taking Spironolactone as an AA to kill my libido which has gotten me in trouble many times in my life.  I've never been the rugged brawny man's man. I've always liked the more refined, dare I say "feminine", things in life. I don't participate or watch any sports, I don't hunt or fish. I'd rather be with women than men anytime. I just can't relate to them very well.

I do like to dress as a woman, I often wear skirts and tops with hosiery as a man. No wig or bra. Nobody would ever mis gender me as female. I've cross dressed a few times (my picture), and enjoyed it.

The Spiro did quell the sexual drive somewhat, but then I learned that it's not good for the body to be without any hormones. So I did a lot of reading and decided to "try" estrogen HRT, to see if it helped me to feel better about myself. To be on the "right fuel" as they say. So I've been on a rather low dose for 2 weeks now. No I haven't' noticed anything yet.

I have no desire for any surgeries except maybe an orchiectomy.  And I don't really want to grow breasts, because I'd have to hide them when out in public. I'll admit though that they would be welcome if it weren't for that.
 
I look forward to hearing more about you and your husbands' journey.
Thank you.

[Sylvia]

Hi Gordon, it's good to 'meet' someone else who keeps the male name!

My partner has never had a VERY high libido (apart from in our early days when I had a 2 year illicit affair with him, while married to someone else), so I can't say it got him into trouble. Well, maybe having an affair with a married woman IS trouble...

He is also not, and never has been, a blokey bloke. He likes women, hates 'alpha' males, but does get on with the guys he mixes with, and doesn't really understand women, lol. Unlike you, he loves sports and played many when he was young - not because he thought he should - he genuinely loves sports and is very competitive.

He has got breasts, but he's also put on a couple of kilos since starting E, so really they don't look like anything more than moobs to be honest. He wears a sports type bra for work to try and hide them. No one seems to have noticed anything.

Wishing you well.

[Faith]

Sylvia, I just want to say that all I would have to do is swap the name. My wife could have written this section of the post. I made sure that she read it. she agreed that you hit every point that is in her head right now.

I knew this, I don't know what to do about it, I am not that person any more. she says she's working it out and we'll move forward and it'll work out for both of us. I hope so. I honestly tried small steps backwards, I crashed. I couldn't believe how hard that it hit me. She made me promise not to do that again .. forward only.

I love my wife.

Sylvia, No, you don't sound shallow or selfish. Hang in there.

Faith
ps. Lori is still figuring out how to navigate the forums. She is not a computer user.

... <snip> ...
I cried a lot yesterday. I just miss his maleness. Sounds silly, I know, but I miss the parts of him that I liked. I miss his hairy arms, his snake hips, his lovely buttocks, his stubble. Yes, shallow I know. But it's how I feel. When he's hugged me I've tried not to feel his boobs. I miss feeling lustful about him. I miss FANCYING him, I just miss that feeling. That doesn't mean I don't want to make love with him - I do, because I love him, but it's out of love not lust. This feeling worries me. I want some good old fashioned 'phwoar' factor back. He still finds me attractive (I think!), but that has now been stolen from me. Why should he still have that feeling if I can't? It doesn't seem fair.
... <snip>... Sorry if I sound selfish and shallow.

[Sylvia]

Thanks Faith (and Lori). I'm glad it's not just me. I can't shake this feeling of loss, even though my partner is still fully (more or less) presenting male. I can see the female creeping in, even if no one else can. If he fully transitioned, I can't imagine how I'd feel.

I just feel so sad.

[SadieBlake]

Syl, from my corner it's bee a rough few weeks. I've had so little success with dating which has completely dashed my expectations that had been based on my first post-op lover, so easy, so good. My SO isn't lesbian and I'm starting to be resigned that sex is never going to be great between us, I actually found myself sobbing the last time we tried. Of course that wouldn't happen so much without the estrogen but I wouldn't trade it. Being fundamentally healthy is important.

Your hubs dodges a bullet that definitely caught me right in the heart. It's odd, what I have doesn't feel like depression, simply sadness.

[Sylvia]

Sorry to hear this, Sadie, things seemed to be going so well last time we 'spoke'. Hope you and your partner can find a way through.

Syl xxx

[Sylvia]

Things are not going well. He's shut me out again. Doesn't want to talk about anything. He seems very low. Also in the last couple of weeks he seems to have reached a huge level of anger. real rage, at pretty well every trivial irritation. He used to get angry like this many years ago, but recently he had been a lot more patient, understanding and empathetic. These last few days have been worse than anything he had been like in his old 'pre-trans' days. I don't understand. I thought E was supposed to make him feel calmer, peaceful, happy. I don't know what's going on and I'm worried about him. He's away again which always makes me worry more.

[Devlyn]

Unfortunately, estradiol can also make us as volatile as an emotional teenage girl. Make sure you let him know how you feel about this, and that you're concerned about his behaviour. Sending strength to you!

Hugs, Devlyn

[Sylvia]

I was ready for ups and downs in mood - the same day as the rages he cried like a baby, which isn't unusual. I just didn't expect these terrible rages, this complete intolerance of everything and generally just being, frankly, an angry old man. My teenage girls were never like that....

[Moonflower]

@Sylvia , I hope all is going well. I've missed hearing from you...

[Sylvia]

Still here. Nothing has happened really. The anger subsided and he's back to his old self. But I can honestly say I really can't see any mental change in him from the HRT. I was expecting more. Physically, still the same really. Maybe the boobs have grown a bit. We're not really talking about it, or discussing things at all at the moment. Maybe I've just got my head in the sand again? He had his bloods a couple of weeks ago. I haven't even asked what his levels were, nor has he told me. As he's still presenting male, I guess it's easy enough to just 'pretend' everything's ok. I say presenting male. We were shopping last week and were accosted in the make up section by a beauty person brandishing an eye liner pencil. But it was me she wanted to do it to - it was him! I assume she saw he was wearing a bit of eye shadow (and I already had eyeliner on), so maybe he looks more female than we think. Or else she just thinks it's ok for guys to wear make-up (as do I). Who knows? He refused, by the way.
Anyway, will post an update some time.

[JanePlain]

Still here. Nothing has happened really. The anger subsided and he's back to his old self. But I can honestly say I really can't see any mental change in him from the HRT. I was expecting more. Physically, still the same really. Maybe the boobs have grown a bit. We're not really talking about it, or discussing things at all at the moment. Maybe I've just got my head in the sand again? He had his bloods a couple of weeks ago. I haven't even asked what his levels were, nor has he told me. As he's still presenting male, I guess it's easy enough to just 'pretend' everything's ok. I say presenting male. We were shopping last week and were accosted in the make up section by a beauty person brandishing an eye liner pencil. But it was me she wanted to do it to - it was him! I assume she saw he was wearing a bit of eye shadow (and I already had eyeliner on), so maybe he looks more female than we think. Or else she just thinks it's ok for guys to wear make-up (as do I). Who knows? He refused, by the way.
Anyway, will post an update some time.

I just found this thread and wanted to say that I think it is an important one and am glad that your posting it Sylvia.   I think it brings some clarity to me on how this goes on both sides of the fence now.   

I thought I would perhaps comment on the sexual drive stuff.   My story is a tad complicated but the short version is that I've learned that Testosterone without Estrogen is a pretty much an asexual experience.  Just no interest.  Nothing seemed sexually "hot" I just didn't have any radar.  No Testosterone or Estrogen btw is horrible.  And if anyone is curious that was how I was told it had to be for a year after cancer surgery.   I hated it.   Like walking around in a nothing state emotions, sex drive, anything.  Just super depressing!

Having a healthy level of estrogen and some testosterone has been eye opening.  Before my orchiectomy I had sex drive but emotions were very limited.  Mood was pretty limited to male sided anger or indifference?  It felt really screwed up.   Maybe just not much range in people wired male?   Empathy seems to me to have been lacking at least in relation to going on HRT.  Estrogen (but still some testosterone) my sex drive switch got flicked on and turned up to high.   Things like noticing my significant other (Checking her out which I can barely remember ever doing)  The ability to go from angry to crying over something.  So while I know how off putting it might be to suggest trans people include some amount of testosterone I think that having sex bonds you.  Or maybe its that not having sex unbonds?  Either way.  Probably good topics for therapy.  I hope it sparks more conversation here. 

I wanted to say one thing about HRT and the "person" it creates.  I haven't been at this long (April) but I don't think that it does.  I think the person you married was and is the same person.  Yes some physical aspects have changed.  And the moods or ability to have a greater range is certainly different but its just a tweak to the person you've known.  Like Spider man before he got bit by a radioactive spider wasn't replaced with someone new.   It was still Peter Parker high school student.  He just got some different physical abilities.  And "spider sense."   Which I guess is crying at cute kittens and puppies videos on YouTube.

I've heard that when we go on HRT we experience a 2nd puberty.  Puberty is hard for a lot of people.  Maybe the one thing we have going for us is that we aren't in JR High and have adult experiences that let this not be as awful as the first one.  Or maybe better stated we don't let it make us as awful as we were during the first one.

Last I wanted to say I appreciate the topic of your significant other's dysphoria that is based on internal stuff and perhaps is not as important in being accepted outwardly as female?  Or maybe its a combination of the fear (or disgust) with dealing with the "phobes"   Homo/Trans fill in the blank.  I think there is some percentage of people where Internal dysphoria issues can be treated with HRT and an orchiectomy.  Anyway thats a question I would like to ask. 

I hope you keep posting.  I hope that you find a way to see past the female parts when you get intimate.  Heck most men end up having "moobs" when they get old anyway.   I think a lot of Cis men think of their nipples as a major erogenous zone.  Right?

[Sylvia]

Thanks for the reply, Jane. As I've said before, sexually I CAN get past the 'female bits' a lot easier than I thought I could. We are still intimate but in a different way, which is enjoyable, but I do miss the old way though.He was surprised last time that he still got an erection (and even managed penetration) but he did find it a bit painful, which is a bit worrying. His nipples have ALWAYS been an erogenous zone (as I've found with many other of my previous male partners) but now it's something else. He gets SO turned on by breast and nipple stimulation. I swear I could bring him to orgasm just from breasts.

He's not on T-blockers and doesn't want ANY surgery so an orchi is out of the question too. He has been using progesterone cream on his moobs too. The breasts are REALLY his main focus. Still an obsession in my view.

I still just CANNOT think of him as a woman. I can see him as a feminised version of himself. He understands that and is ok with it. So far. We discussed things like names and pronouns again last night, and he is adamant that he has no intention of changing either. He really thinks he just isn't like most transgender women. His therapist is quite surprised sometimes too, and tells him he certainly is not the 'run of the mill' patient. But then, he's always been a bit different, which is why I love him.

Syl.

[JanePlain]

Without getting TMI I would like to suggest considering making love sometimes without it having to be erection based.  Oral, vibrators (my vote for sure!) etc.  Some of the physical dysphoria stuff might make adding more of that a hit in the bedroom and it will take away any concerns that trouble with erections or pain doing PIV sex etc are anything personal.  This is probably TMI alert but if you don't have one I urge you two to check out the Hitachi magic wand vibe (Which they sell in drug stores or online) is probably responsible for more orgasms then all the other gadgets combined. 

Maybe I'm a little more like your spouse.  Hopefully this won't hurt anyone thats fighting the good fight (Because I do appreciate those brave enough to do it) but the pronouns and such just aren't as important to me.  Name changes and being out and wanting to pass are a little less important then physical dysphoria with male parts (Which my orchiectomy helped deal with) but maybe of more importance having my brain "wired" without gallons of testosterone.  Or rather the mix being what feels like the wrong one. 

I don't know.  If I could reset back to when I was 18 and the medical science was where its at today and society being less wigged out about lesbians I think I would be all in.  Some of it of course is that as screwed up with transphobic people today its still 100x better then it was when I was a teenager.  I was actually pretty old when I first heard there even was such a thing as transexual surgery and cross hormones as a possibility.   Part of the complexity is that men do nothing for me sexually so I don't have skin in that particular game like some m2f friends who wanted the white picket fence / adoring husband, 2.5 kids and happy ever after thing. 

Sorry - I'm babbling on your thread.  Just please keep posting.  I do hope you two can figure something out.  Oh!  I forgot (may have already mentioned it) nipple stimulation etc all were a huge erog zone thing for me well before HRT or Orchiectomy.  I think its just a normal thing that probably is not easily admitted to by a lot of men?  Then on the other hand you have the popularity of pegging and I guess we see that things really are a bit different from those days long ago.  Hooray for SOME progress!

[Sylvia]

Hi Jane, don't worry, we are veterans at non PIV sex too, I don't have a problem with it at all. But like I say, I don't want us to lose the PIV ability altogether, and neither does he. I don't think now there is any way we could both climax with PIV, which is also a bit sad, as in the past we used to manage it simultaneously most times. Had to google 'pegging' ha ha. Without knowing the term for it, yes we have done that too, but it was before his HRT and he hasn't shown any further desires since. I'm actually much keener on trying different sex games than he is. Will look up that wand thing, we have one or two things already.

I also think sometimes I'm 'testing' him. I don't necessarily want to have sex but I want to check that he can still do it. A bit unfair I guess.

Thanks for your help (and your advice does help).

Syl

[Monica]

Hey Syl,

I found this topic very informative and interesting. Thanks for sharing the window into your mind with us. I think some of the insights you've been sharing explain some of the things my wife seems to be going through, but not really talking about.

She does this thing when she's concerned about something, where she'll go totally silent in the middle of a conversation, and change the subject. Try to talk about something else. I think her biggest concern is that our sex life will change dramatically. At least so far, that hasn't been an issue. I've tried not to be pushy with it. Especially after the "the man I love is fading away" comment she hit me with a couple weeks ago.

I travel a lot too, and it's not easy. I'm not sure how run of the mill I am either. I do know that I've never (as an adult anyway) tied my gender to my identity, for what it's worth. And, at least at this early stage, I don't think I would mind presenting as female if I came a little closer to passing.

Honestly, it would be a relief. Trying to do the straight cis masculine thing is tiring, and it's sort of a requirement when you try present that way. It's always been a chore. Right now, I'm at this awkward middle stage, I just look like a weird guy who subtly wears nothing but baggy t-shirts and women's pants. Thankfully, people aren't all that observant, because my breasts are really starting to round out. They would be noticeable if I wasn't over weight. Thank goodness I'm fat, lol.

Anyway, it sounds like your kids are older. Mine is still little. My wife seems very concerned about explaining this to the kid. She hasn't clearly articulated why. I had to think about that one myself, but I think I'm a little less concerned about it. How did yours take it?

[Sylvia]

Hi Monica, thanks for your insights.
Our kids don't know. He doesn't want them to know. He doesn't want to come out publicly, he says never. Who knows though? I can't believe our kids haven't noticed the changes. He wears nail polish on all his nails now (a light, subtle color though, so not terribly visible) and I'm sure the kids have noticed but not said anything. I think they think dad is a bit 'weird' - we are both pretty different to most of the run of the mill parents round here. Maybe that's why they don't seem to be shocked by anything. Or maybe they have worked it out and are not saying anything....
Good luck with your wife, she is welcome to pm me.
Syl

[Faith]

I hope you don't mind my interjection

Montica, With children, the younger the better. None of my children are the norm, apparently .. must be their upbringing   My youngest grandchildren are 2.5 and 6.5

The 2.5 recognizes me equally in older photos where I'm young pre-everything, older-pre (where I'm just old ), pre-overweight with a full beard, pre lost weight without beard, and with my current 1 year changes.

The 6 yr old had no problems to speak of. I am now Papa or Mrs Papa whichever happens to come out. Obviously a little more aware of changes still, now distress just curiosity and acceptance.

I have two older grandchildren, both 14 that are ok with it. The 14 yr old boy grew up with us from birth until 7, I was surrogate  father in those years and still looked at that way. He simply says, it's a little weird, it's ok though.

The 14 year old girl I call the import (affectionately). Shes my son-in-laws daughter from a previous marriage. They got custody 2-3 years ago. When she first met me, pre, she was scared of me. I was solidly in my depressed bitter angry mode of unknowing. Then when I started to change she thought weird (weird seems to be a common theme when children first learn). Now she enjoys my company. I think she likes the fact that I understand some of what she's going through, we are both the same age for hormone charged emotions

My 3 children range 26 - 32. They are all OK with it. Sure they had to come to terms in their own way as anyone would. My oldest brags about me, she usually starts with "My Dad's a girl" . I recently found out that my 2nd daughter is very defensive of me and get very mad at anyone that presents a slight to me.

My son, the youngest, Oh he's just like, "Eh, whatever as long as you're happy"
Getting into my nieces, Their first comments were, "COOL!" 

Ok, I dragged this out. My point is, adults get more confused than young'uns do. It's the parent of the children passing their confused worry on to them.

The 'man fading away' That's hard. My wife is struggling real hard with it. Her man isn't just fading away at this point, he's gone.

Got to run

OH, sex life.. yeah, different for everyone .. right now I don't have one. That doesn't mean that it'll happen to you. A lot of it depends on both of your approaches to the changes.

Faith

[Monica]

Ok, I dragged this out. My point is, adults get more confused than young'uns do. It's the parent of the children passing their confused worry on to them.

Honestly, I don't think my little one even understands the concept of gender yet. She's 8. We have friends in transition, and we had a landlord who was a fulltime mtf a couple years ago, and she just thinks of them as girls. I don't think the thought that these people are trans, or even the concept of being trans in the first place has even crossed her little mind yet. Just recently, her mother and I had to explain what gay was, because she's getting bullied by some real cretins in school.

The 'man fading away' That's hard. My wife is struggling real hard with it. Her man isn't just fading away at this point, he's gone.

You know, I realize that it was a moment of real honesty on her part, but it was one of the most unintentionally mean things she's ever said to me. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong. I don't see any of this as a character transformation. I'm still me. I'm just happier, thinner, and healthier over all. Not as horribly sick anywhere near as often. I'm trying to be considerate, not self obsessed, and completely honest. I'm not hiding anything from her for longer than say, a minute. But I don't understand the reasoning there.

OH, sex life.. yeah, different for everyone .. right now I don't have one. That doesn't mean that it'll happen to you. A lot of it depends on both of your approaches to the changes.

That sucks. I haven't been on hrt long enough to see any functional changes there, beyond what I've already gone through naturally. Actually, at least so far, the parts are working better than they have since I was in my 20's, but my sizing is all over the place. One day, I'm two inches longer. The next, I'm shorter than before. It seems to be getting thinner, and pointier. I would have had a real issue with that, in the old days. But now I don't really mind as long as I feel alright. Functionally, at least for now, I'm okay.