The Aviation Thread

[Donica]

Our crosswind landing technique was to crab on final to hold the centreline, then kick it straight in the flare for touchdown.  I guess technically, kicking the nose straight while dropping a wing to maintain the centreline is a slip. 

I am not sure I understand the difference between a forward slip and a side slip.  As far as I can tell, the aerodynamics are the same; the difference is whether there is a centreline under your track or not.  Shows how often we did slips!

[EDIT:]  Ah, thank you, Google.  A forward slip and a side slip are aerodymnamically the same.  In a forward slip, the fuselage is cockeyed to the centreline because you aren't doing it for a crosswind.  In a side slip, the fusealage remains aligned with the centreline because you are using it to counteract crosswind.  So our technique was to side slip in the flare for crosswind landings.

Dido Kathy. The aircraft would naturally crab on approach in a cross wind which in my opinion, is safer then side slipping at such a low and slow altitude because the airflow is straight over the wings and control surfaces, making it easier to recover from any unseen windshear that we all love so much. That's how the ATP's do it. I love watching the YouTube video's of the nastiest crosswind airports around the world that ATP pilots have to deal with.

[steph2.0]

[EDIT:]  Ah, thank you, Google.  A forward slip and a side slip are aerodymnamically the same.  In a forward slip, the fuselage is cockeyed to the centreline because you aren't doing it for a crosswind.  In a side slip, the fusealage remains aligned with the centreline because you are using it to counteract crosswind.  So our technique was to side slip in the flare for crosswind landings.

I agree with the Goog. I was wondering, though, why the heavy metal crabs all the way down, then kicks it out on the flare, while we were taught to slip to landing, keeping the upwind wing low and touching down on the upwind wheel. I think I've decided that there are three reasons the big guys do it differently.

First, since most are low wing with engine nacelles hanging down, they can't lower the upwind wing too far without bending something.

Second, I suspect the different masses of the craft come into play. The much higher inertia of those high-mass big guys keep them moving the same direction long enough once the crab is kicked out that they can touch down before the wind blows them off-center. The low-mass stuff I fly can start accelerating sideways pretty quickly with the crosswind as soon as any crab is removed.

Lastly, with the higher stall speeds of the heavy stuff, the crosswind component is much smaller than with my plane that has a 40 knot stall.

For what it's worth...

Stephanie

[KathyLauren]

I think you are right on all counts, Stephanie.

I vaguely recall (It was 42 years ago, for heaven's sake!) that there was something about the wing sections used on transsonic aircraft (which includes most airliners, as well as military jet trainers) that makes them really not like slips.  What exactly the issue was, I don't remember.  Most likely much higher drag.

Like the big guys, we didn't slip on final.  But, unlike the big guys, we went into a full slip in the flare.  No low-slung engine nacelles to worry about, and not enough mass to keep us from getting blown sideways.

[steph2.0]

I think you are right on all counts, Stephanie.

I vaguely recall (It was 42 years ago, for heaven's sake!) that there was something about the wing sections used on transsonic aircraft (which includes most airliners, as well as military jet trainers) that makes them really not like slips.  What exactly the issue was, I don't remember.  Most likely much higher drag.

Could it be the swept wings? In a slip, possibly the downwind wing would be turned so far away from the relative wind that it would stall? I dunno, just thinking out loud.

I read Tex Johnston's book about testing the Boeing 367-80, precursor to the 707, and mentioning its issues with dutch roll due to the swept wings. I don't understand the aerodynamics, so it may be completely unrelated.

Tex is the one who barrel rolled the -80 when it debuted in Seattle in 1955. His boss called him into the office to ask him what he thought he was doing. His answer: "Selling airplanes." He didn't get fired. [emoji854]

Stephanie

[Donica]

Yes, my instructor taught me to side slip on approach but after I learned to do it right, she let me crab. Stephanie makes a good point! With all that stuff hanging so close to the ground on the big boys, they can't do a side slip.

I recall a YouTube video where one of the triple engine crafts (3 engine nacelles on the tail) struck the ground with the wingtip in a crosswind landing. But I THINK, (I could be wrong) that was due to a long since removed safety device that would reduce the control throws to half, once the crafts wheels touched down?

I believe the safety device was used to keep the pilot from overcontrolling the craft while on the ground???

[Donica]

Tex is the one who barrel rolled the -80 when it debuted in Seattle in 1955. His boss called him into the office to ask him what he thought he was doing. His answer: "Selling airplanes." He didn't get fired. [emoji854]

Stephanie

I saw that video Stephanie. It was a documentary about early jet engine people movers? The crowd was thinking he was about to crash. I forget now but it was either Bell or Boeing aircraft company?

[steph2.0]

I saw that video Stephanie. It was a documentary about early jet engine people movers? The crowd was thinking he was about to crash. I forget now but it was either Bell or Boeing aircraft company?

Tex did do some testing for Bell, but the -80 was built by Boeing.


Stephanie

[KathyLauren]

Could it be the swept wings? In a slip, possibly the downwind wing would be turned so far away from the relative wind that it would stall? I dunno, just thinking out loud.

Duh!  I should have thought of that!  Yes, the swept wing would make a big difference.

There are plenty of wingtip-strike videos on YT.  One of the best/worst is a 737 or Airbus at Dusseldorf airport.  The plane goes all squirrely, with the pilot overcontrolling like a student, and you see the puff of dust as the left wingtip strikes the ground.  Fortunately, the engines were already spooling up for the overshoot, and they survived with just some scratched metal.

[steph2.0]

Duh!  I should have thought of that!  Yes, the swept wing would make a big difference.

There are plenty of wingtip-strike videos on YT.  One of the best/worst is a 737 or Airbus at Dusseldorf airport.  The plane goes all squirrely, with the pilot overcontrolling like a student, and you see the puff of dust as the left wingtip strikes the ground.  Fortunately, the engines were already spooling up for the overshoot, and they survived with just some scratched metal.

Seriously, those airliners should be fabric covered. After an incident like that, a quick patch job and some paint and they'd be back in the air. Bent metal has to be replaced. Sheesh.


Stephanie

[Donica]

Seriously, those airliners should be fabric covered. After an incident like that, a quick patch job and some paint and they'd be back in the air. Bent metal has to be replaced. Sheesh.


Stephanie

Oh, I get! Your yoking right?

[steph2.0]

Oh, I get! Your yoking right?

Ha! Strangely enough, I prefer a stick. In the plane, not elsewhere...


Stephanie

[Donica]

Ya, I've built a few STICK planes as a child.

[KatieP]

WoW! Aviation + Trans humor.

Who'd 'ov thunk!

Kate

[steph2.0]

WoW! Aviation + Trans humor.

Who'd 'ov thunk!

Kate

[emoji1787]

With the low ceilings the other day I thought i might not be able to get over the top of the class D at KLEE, and would have to call them to ask permission to... ahem... transition their airspace.

I tell ya, I got a million of 'em. Don't forget to tip your servers, because they help us help You!


Stephanie

[steph2.0]

I wrote about my awesome week volunteering at the DeLand Sport Aviation Showcase over on my personal thread, but I thought this more properly belonged here.

I was working the Exhibitor support tent, and that included checking in the forums and keynote speakers. One of them was the weatherman at a Tampa TV station. He's a pilot, too, and when he checked in, he had this little guy with him.



Awwww...

Stephanie

[BeverlyAnn]

Wow, how did I miss this thread.  I'm retired now but I started with Delta Air Lines when I was 18 in air cargo.  I worked ground crew on an L100 freighter, the civilian version of the C130.  After a year at Delta, I took a military leave of absence and enlisted in the Navy, enlistment papers specified Naval Aviation.  Then I spent four years as an Aviation Electronics Technician on A-7's including 10 months the aircraft carrier USS John F. Kennedy.  Back to Delta after the Navy and worked ramp, operations (weight and balance), ticket counter and after too many injuries, finally reservations.  Total of 34 years with Delta.  I never flew but my aircraft experience: Lockheed L100 and L1011 , Convair 440 and 880, Douglas DC6, DC7, DC8, DC9, DC10, McDonnell-Douglas MD80 series, MD-11, Boeing 727, 737, 747, 757, 767 and a few miscellaneous aircraft from other airlines.

[Donica]

I wrote about my awesome week volunteering at the DeLand Sport Aviation Showcase over on my personal thread, but I thought this more properly belonged here.

I was working the Exhibitor support tent, and that included checking in the forums and keynote speakers. One of them was the weatherman at a Tampa TV station. He's a pilot, too, and when he checked in, he had this little guy with him.



Awwww...

Stephanie

So cute!! The next generation of pilots.

Donica.

[Sarah_Evelyn]

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This course is ideal for anyone new to small unmanned aircraft systems who want to learn to operate confidently and safely. Last time we had 4500 participants, with 50% of non-U.S. international participation. The course can also be a good lead-in for prospects that are interested in the topic.

Future MOOCs will be announced as scheduled.

[KathyLauren]

My brother, who is on the executive of Canadian Aviation Pride ("CAP"), emailed me with some correspondence he had from a trans American student who is studying in Canada and wants to take flying lessons.  They wanted to ensure that there would be no bureaucratic obstacles due to their being trans.

CAP had researched the question with Transport Canada, and this was their response:

Transgender concerns - How does this affect a license and medical certificate and what special aspects need to be taken care of for a license holder?

Transport Canada has no issue with trans-gender people flying except when and if they are recovering from gender re-assignment surgery or are undergoing significant drug therapy.  If the clinical status of the person post surgery or after a period of acclimatization to drug therapy is stable and their treating physicians are satisfied that the person is clinically stable then they can be found fit to fly. 

Again, it will depend on the medications being used as some may have deleterious side effects such as sedation that make their use in the cockpit unsafe.  It is not the diagnosis that is the issue but the treatment and its effects on performance. 

As I am sure you appreciate I have given you our basic philosophy/policy.  Each case will be assessed on its own individual merits and the current medical certification system has enough flexibility that we can tailor a response to almost any condition or combination of conditions.

The student eventually wrote back to CAP that they had been granted a Category 1 medical certificate, with no delays and no hassles, unlike their experience in the U.S., where they had had to endure a year-long wait and related expenses.

I just thought I would post this for the benefit of any Canadian would-be pilots.

I also like the fact that my brother concluded his correspondence with this person by saying: "My sister is trans, and was a jet flight instructor in the military, so I have a strong interest in this."  Ooh, I still get a buzz when I see him refer to me as his sister!

[Donica]

Woo-hoo sister!!! I don't know your brother but I like him. I have no idea what the expense is today. I do know that many things in the US have changed since I last flew. I wonder what the philosophy/policy the FAA has with trans pilots? It gather things are easier in Canada for student pilots. Good to know.