Which hurts less

[TonyaW]

I am so confused. I am a guy with guys. Who am I?

I am scuba diving and being me but I am a guy.  Where is Emma in all this?  I really hate not having just one of me.  Who will just make me happy?  This is not a good place to be.  Self hate just doesn't work. I really need to find some peace.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. I'm ggettingthat you're enjoying the trip and seem ok with being one of the guys. But it might be something to consider that enjoying your trip doesn't have anything to go with your gender.

There were a lot of things I liked doing and I easily fit in as one of the guys while doing them. Hindsight tells me it was because I liked the activity, and mostly focusing on that would keep any thoughts about my gender issues in the background.

Part of figuring out that I could actually transition was realizing I could still do anything that I previously  thought of as "guy stuff".  Example; last weekend I went on a a golf weekend with my brother and 2 friends. It was the 4th year in a row we've done this trip, 2nd after I came out. Nothing has changed except my wardrobe.



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[Linde]

I intended the post to apply to the OP as that was the topic of discussion.

I understand, but I wanted just to mention that being able to be a male is not always gender fluid!  And I used my situation as an example for this.

[KimOct]

I intended the post to apply to the OP as that was the topic of discussion.

Oops sorry Dena, I thought it was a response to my post.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. I'm ggettingthat you're enjoying the trip and seem ok with being one of the guys. But it might be something to consider that enjoying your trip doesn't have anything to go with your gender.

There were a lot of things I liked doing and I easily fit in as one of the guys while doing them. Hindsight tells me it was because I liked the activity, and mostly focusing on that would keep any thoughts about my gender issues in the background.

Part of figuring out that I could actually transition was realizing I could still do anything that I previously  thought of as "guy stuff".  Example; last weekend I went on a a golf weekend with my brother and 2 friends. It was the 4th year in a row we've done this trip, 2nd after I came out. Nothing has changed except my wardrobe.



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I agree.  Enjoying 'guy stuff' even with the guys does not make someone male.  Plenty of women like doing 'guy stuff' with male friends. 

All of the gender stereotyping that we have absorbed our entire lives is ridiculous.  We like what we like and we are who we are.  It really is that simple but it takes a lot of agonizing and thinking and other lousy stuff until we can figure out that it really is far less complicated than we make it.

And THAT ladies.... is my Zen philosophy for the day. 

[Tessa James]

Oops sorry Dena, I thought it was a response to my post.

I agree.  Enjoying 'guy stuff' even with the guys does not make someone male.  Plenty of women like doing 'guy stuff' with male friends. 

All of the gender stereotyping that we have absorbed our entire lives is ridiculous.  We like what we like and we are who we are.  It really is that simple but it takes a lot of agonizing and thinking and other lousy stuff until we can figure out that it really is far less complicated than we make it.

And THAT ladies.... is my Zen philosophy for the day. 

Right on Kim.  We talked about this at our gender support meeting last night.  Many of us conclude that there are about 8 billion genders or individuals with unique gender expressions.  There is no guy only stuff but there is your stuff and my stuff and we can share, mix and match as we see fit.  We allow ourselves these freedoms and exercise them as we expand on the tired old definitions that once kept us in closets and chains. 

[KathyLauren]

I am scuba diving and being me but I am a guy.  Where is Emma in all this?

Emma is scuba diving, hon! 

Don't let people pigeon-hole your identity so that only guys do some things and only girls do others.  You don't have to give up your interests and hobbies just because you are a woman.  And just because you enjoyed them when you thought you were a guy doesn't mean that you have to go back to pretending you are a guy when you do them.

Kathy can operate heavy machinery; she can run a sound and light console; she can do electrical wiring.  She can also play music, appreciate fine art, and look pretty.  (Well, okay, still working on that last one, but I can try.)

You can do anything you want and still be Emma.  You have earned the right.

[KimOct]

Emma I assume you will be returning home in the next few days.  Please consider the recent posts in your topic.  Notice a theme?   We did not learn this overnight.  It took time.  We all have a lifetime of stupid stuff we have learned that needs to be un-learned.

My new concern for you is that you are going to come home very confused.  You are having a great time doing something you enjoy with people you enjoy.  From reading your brief post when you were in port or wherever it was you had access made me think - she is going to come home more confused.

I hope my assumptions are totally off base.  I would love to be wrong.

You have spent a long time here generously sharing your pain, your joys of briefly experiencing who you are and asking intelligent questions.  The things you have been doing are not the actions of someone that is cis gender. 
Sorry I am playing PhD on the internet this time not MD.  ( Moni ? )

But that is my amateur analysis.

Read the posts above and then read them again. 

I am not recruiting you to transition.  I am pushing you to find your best path whatever that may be.

[HappyMoni]

What, what... I heard my name!   I experienced the dichotomy of male v female (stereotype) approach yesterday.  I talked to a young, macho guy. He spoke of a time that he had a bit of drink and  got very expressive about his brother who had died. You could just see the shame and embarrassment all over him that he let out his emotions. Sadly it took alcohol to get there. I told him that there was nothing to be ashamed of, that it was obvious that he had much love for his brother. Last night we had six woman sitting around talking about our lives, our joys and sorrows and it flowed so naturally. These differences are many times a reality. We have been brought up this way. I think of myself as more free now though. I could still go with friends, male or female and do traditional "male" activities if I want. The key would be, I will be viewed as female by that group and it is super validating. I don't know, there are so many things I haven't done as a female yet. I would like to go zip lining again. It would be even better this time having some hot young guy strapping me into my harness with a bit of a different attitude than "Here fella, hold on there, ugha ugha, where are the women to strap in?" (Is it getting hot in here ?) Life is so much better being the real you. (with hot guys around heehee)

Emma we miss you! I really hope you come back refreshed. You are allowed to be a bit waterlogged.

[KimOct]

even better this time having some hot young guy strapping me into my harness

You know Moni,  there are sites that discuss that stuff in detail.       ( I crack myself up )

[HappyMoni]

Where?

[KimOct]

[Emma1017]

OK I am back and have more time to make my personal point clearer after that sloppy statement I made earlier.  Sorry for being misleading.

I was never suggesting that women can't dive, climb mountains, rebuild a transmission or drive a tractor.  I have seen enough women do that and more, better in some cases than any man I know.

I was on a professional salvage dive with some very heavy testosterone. I like who I am as Emma but I also like the guy that I am.  That is what happened on the dive.  I really liked being a guy and forgot Emma (most of the time).

I keep verbalizing my confusion as I continue to process.  I have finally accepted that I am transgender...but there are two parts to me with a wall dividing each of the pieces.  My goal is to tear down the wall further, removing it entirely and then put the two pieces together.

Separately my wife came and met me after the dive for a few days vacation.  We had a great time together.  No Kim I didn't force "the conversation" .  I still believe that the other "wall", the one between she and Emma, will continue to softly erode.  She is no longer threatened by me taking HRT.  Now it is a question of how to increase her acceptance. 

Look how long it took me!

Kim you made a comment earlier that continues to really resonate with me (go figure ):

      "The things you have been doing are not the actions of someone that is cis gender." 

It made me laugh and really confront reality.  What guy would go for facial electrolysis???  Forget about the make up, dress shopping, voice lessons, how about even talking about cutting off their genitals???

There was no hiding from the clear reality of that point!  Emma stuck her tongue out at me and has razzed me for days  on that point....thanks .   It was like going out for a night of beers with you and Moni...

I keep saying this, it should be an interesting year for me.

I hope you are all doing well.


Hugs,

Emma

[Stepheewt]

I read your posts and sooooo, understand this. Your wife and family mean everything. I get this. It's like you just want to put the Emma side back in the box and store it at the bottom of the ocean on one of your dives. Unfortunately if your like me Emma would just float back up on you anyway. It really sucks to have to hurt people around you so you can try and stop the pain you have had for years. Not sure if when you are with THEGUYS it's easy to just put on the act or if it's just a great distraction, maybe it's both. I have become an amazing actor over the years. I can always play the part, keep myself distracted long enough to continue on. Until I can't. You are not alone, I wish you all the best in your daily life and with your wife. Hopefully you can find a way to bridge your 2 worlds and become truly happy. Hang in there. Huge hug to you Emma.

[HappyMoni]

Alright you 'mugs' the sheriff is back in town. Kim, get your poker face on! The rest of you, straighten your bussles.

Hi Emma, I've been keeping everyone on the straight and narrow for you while you were gone.  Emma, beers? No, 'mudslides' for my fav.

I have one super important question (important for my little brain anyway). Did you simply enjoy the things you did while in guy mode? Or was it more  you enjoying doing things being a guy. Did you enjoy being regarded as a guy?  To me, I would enjoy the activity, maybe enjoy seeing my ability being appreciated, but I would be uncomfortable being seen as the guy. Given the exact same events, it would be so much sweeter to do it all as a woman. (My feelings as a point of reference.)

Welcome Stepheewt. You have a good point. I wonder if she would really enjoy drowning the Emma part for any reason other than to save her partner's feelings.  Glad you are here, Hon!

I'm now walking away. I'm gonna go do some other things. Voice getting quieter and more far off. Suddenly, "Hey did you hear, Emma's back!" (And the crowd goes wild.)

[Stepheewt]

Happy Moni,
HI! (I'm waving)  thanks for the welcome. You are extreamly funny. I love it. I need a good smile from time to time. Now I know where to go and find one. And yes Mudslides rule. I love fruity sweet drinks. Of course I was always told that kind of thing is for the girls.  ......wait foreshadowing
We're they just being jerks or were those idiots maybe on to something. Hmmmmmmm...... Does a strawberry Daquiri taste better while wearing my bra. Nope.... Just tastes good whoever I am. Either way good to meet you.

[Emma1017]

I did like being a guy Moni (I guess I'm buying the drinks... ) but I know its not who I really am or who I should be. 

Stephee I don't feel like: "It's like you just want to put the Emma side back in the box and store it at the bottom of the ocean on one of your dives."   I really feel the joy of being Emma (Yes Kim the same smiling Emma in the photos that I post, unpost, post and unpost...).

I read this quote today:

"It's wrong when people say, oh, you've always wanted to be female. I've spent my life wanting and trying to be male."

...but I have heard this one before as well:

"I am not trying to be a woman, I have always been one."


Is it really just a shade of perspective saying essentially the same thing?

I think so depending on my day.


Hugs,

Emma

[Stepheewt]

Emma,
          I agree with you. I find while as Stephee I'm the most happy. Sometimes the most frightened, but for years I wanted to just hide her away in the back closet. Till suddenly I realized I have been her acting as my male self for years just so no one can see through the mask. I've always been her. (Great a breakthrough and Now what do I do...right) love that quote. Very true. Glad you had a great time on your dive.

[TonyaW]

I was never suggesting that women can't dive, climb mountains, rebuild a transmission or drive a tractor.  I have seen enough women do that and more, better in some cases than any man I know.

I was on a professional salvage dive with some very heavy testosterone. I like who I am as Emma but I also like the guy that I am.  That is what happened on the dive.  I really liked being a guy and forgot Emma (most of the time).

I didn't take your post as meaning that women can't do those things, just recognized the wall you put up as I had done the same. It was realizing that, not women in general, but I, asTonya, could do the things on the male side of the wall that helped me to tear it down.


As to the second part I quoted, I had that same feelings playing softball with the guys and basketball in my younger days. I enjoyed not just the activity but the camaraderie or whatever also. I was easily able to push Tonya way back into the closet at those times.

After my dad purposely deadnamed and misgendered me on my birthday card last June, one of the things I told him was that I didn't always hate being <deadname>, but  it just wasn't who I am.

Hope this isn't not coming off as trying to push you out of the closet, you need to that when or if you're ready.

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[Emma1017]

Tonya I think you may have found my missing linkage!

It's the camaraderie.

I have always loved the camaraderie but it was with women that I love it the most.  The problem has been, as a guy I was always the outsider and I have ALWAYS wanted to be an insider.

Chuckling I just realized that I would rather spend a day in Sephora than a day of diving...(cue Emma laughing in the background...)

Maybe that is what I meant by "being one of the guys"...I'm just on the wrong team .

Time to switch teams....?

OK Kim I'll put my team "jersey" back on...

Hugs,

Emma

[HappyMoni]

   Thank you Stephee for your kind words. You do seem to fit in here pretty well, I think.

   Emma, as I look back at my time of wrestling with which direction to go in my life, male was tolerable at times. I seemed to fit in with guys okay, but it never made me feel whole. Over and over I tried to make me be one complete person as a guy. Monica would always come raging back and it made my life miserable. I was ashamed of wanting to be her and yet could never dislike anything about being her. Being Moni full time was no sure thing. I had no idea it would work. Fortunately, it was my answer. I miss nothing about being male. It is overwhelmingly who I am, even if I had some good times as male. I think you are unable to sink Emma just as I was Monica. Question is, is Emma your answer? For me, it was full time Moni. Nothing less would do. I get the feeling that this is what you are thinking, but there is no rule says we have to be one  gender 100% of the time. I do think actual experiences will tell you a lot. If you imagined being out on that boat as Emma, everyone treating you with respect, but treating you as a female, would that seem really cool, or would it diminish the experience for you? (Stephee if you are still here, I'm not only a wise ass but I pester Emma with too many questions. Don't hit me again Emma!) I think you either will feel very uncomfortable or really like when you are actually in a situation where people see you as female. It will tell you sooooo much. Me, I love being in the world interacting with people seeing me as female. Especially true with men! (Sorry, I'm such a 'Ho!' lol)
    I am happy to hear that your partner is seeming to relax more. I know this is your biggest concern.

[Stepheewt]

I have always loved the camaraderie but it was with women that I love it the most.  The problem has been, as a guy I was always the outsider and I have ALWAYS wanted to be an insider.

I love this quote....wanting to be an insider is the key. And then next ...let me be accepted in as just another in the bunch.   Good stuff.