Susan's Place Logo

News:

Visit our Discord server  and Wiki

Main Menu

I am not a student of ->-bleeped-<-.

Started by DawnOday, October 12, 2018, 04:05:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DawnOday

It's unfortunate but I am not. Transgender was not even a term until my forties.  I am learning as I go along and you are all helping me perfect my opinion. I can't speak for anyone else so I relate my experiences, be they good or bad. I wish the good outnumbered the bad. We all live in our little cocoon. But I want to be born a butterfly as moths are too plain.

My life is not your life and maybe we just can't relate. I'm sorry for that. I try to understand and sometimes I do. I have not lived a life of external pain. All mine has been in my imperfect brain. My love and unfortunately my hate. My confusion, anger, my self loathing. Mostly because I've allowed others to make choices for me. I never expect your experience to match up as mine. Oh, some tidbits may resonate and I feel happy when they do. I have been referred to as the most negative person many have met. It truly is not intention but unfortunately I look at things from all angles and usually my brain settles on the negative. It has supported my career as a problem solver. But it is far different solving problems for machinery and processes than for life experience. I am trying desperately to fit in, as this realization of who i am is coming so late in life.
I have been extremely blessed that one person in my life loves me for myself and not someone who I am not. She has known my struggle for all these years and has not brought it up and let me do the things I felt necessary to make myself feel complete for a few hours at a time. I can't express enough the appreciation for allowing me to be me. But even she has not received the love she deserves because of my confusion. I've said before, I love her but I am not in love with her. My first wife used to tell me that and I never understood. It did not make sense at the time. I wish I could ravish my wife but it is just not in me to do so. Yet here she is at my side as always. Being my strength, counter to my weakness.

I have been blessed in other ways. I was able to establish a career over forty years solving problems for several major aircraft companies. I have gained positions far exceeding my education level. I often attended management meetings being the only one in attendance without an advance degree. I was also one of the most productive at those meetings saving millions of dollars for my company. I was one of the few people and really the only planning person that could make material decisions for part substitutions. I can't think of another person of my stature to possess an approval stamp. A stamp that says I approve of materials that hold the lives of millions of people at stake.

Part of the problem is I always tell the truth as I know it. If something does not add up, I will not sugarcoat my opinion. And, as we all know if we have a-holes we have opinions.

One of the great things about my transition is having access to people like you. You make me smarter, stronger, more confident, more determined to see it through. I have started to trust people again which for me is a great achievement. I am beginning to make friendships again. Another great achievement. It's tough when the majority of your friends were in kindergarten with you over sixty years ago. One of the things that has been hardest to do, is to admit to them that I am transgender. Most surprisingly, have handled it well.

Well, I've taken enough of your time. Just know I value your opinions, insights, recommendations, your friendships, and most of all your experiences. Know too, that I am in your corner cheering you along. I am beginning to understand what special people we are. I wish you all peace and happiness.
Dawn     
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

If you have a a business or service that supports our community please submit for our Links Page.

First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



  •  

Sinclair

I started to understand how special we are when my gay brother blew off the whole transgender movement (that's just my experience, not judging the larger LGB community). We do have our own pride flag (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_flags#Transgender_Pride_Flag). So, yes I do feel special and I do have pride and I am making choices that reinforce who I am.  I'm moving forward everyday. :icon_chick:
I love dresses!!
  •  

Sonja

@DawnOday
Hi Dawn,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I always enjoy reading them. Its definitely a trying and difficult thing to have grown up in an age where things were unknown and rarely talked about. But I'm glad you've found yourself here at this stage of your life and here at Susans where we can get to know you. Your super lucky to have a wife who has made an effort to know all your facets especially having grown up in an age where it can be more difficult to alter or change your way of thinking so - I'm glad she's there for you.
Also I've been wanting to know more about your part in the space program, if you are allowed to share some, what sort of things you did and what stories you have. Did you ever bump into anyone famous? 

Take care, XO

Sonja.
  •  

Carolina

Dearest Dawn,

  I have noticed that we often both comment on various threads, and I've always appreciated the sensibilities that you bring to a subject.  Maybe part of that is because we are both mature, having grown up in, and lived our business lives in, a very different world.  And maybe another part of that is that having gained some small experience from maturity, I appreciate your directness.

  Anyway I'm a fairly comfortable cd, not a transitioner, so many of the issues of importance here at Susan's are something that I have not personally struggled with.  But I certainly sympathize with the struggle that many have, and some still are, experiencing. How difficult it must be for them.

  So Dawn, you are one of the special people who make Susan's my kind of Place.  Take care of yourself.

      Love,  Carolina

 
  •  

IAmM

"and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Who or what we are is not an anomaly but a part of the life around us. There are fish that change gender and doing so usually makes them the most dominant of their species. We are not the failed portion of humanity but the strength that can look beyond what is expected to what we can be. In an unexcepting world this is a good place to find acceptance and possibly peace, but you have to know, we are not the problem. You are not the problem.

I think I speak for most of us to say that we are glad that you are here. For myself I say that I am glad that you found yourself, a rock that you can build your church, that the gates of Hell cannot prevail against.
  •  

pamelatransuk

Quote from: DawnOday on October 12, 2018, 04:05:05 PM
It's unfortunate but I am not. Transgender was not even a term until my forties.  I am learning as I go along and you are all helping me perfect my opinion. 

One of the great things about my transition is having access to people like you. You make me smarter, stronger, more confident, more determined to see it through. I have started to trust people again which for me is a great achievement. I am beginning to make friendships again. Another great achievement. It's tough when the majority of your friends were in kindergarten with you over sixty years ago. Dawn   

Hello again Dawn

As you probably recall, I have also known I was trans (without knowing the name) since aged 4 and suppressed and buried till I finally took action last year with therapy and HRT. I think it is only recently perhaps since 2000 here in UK that transgender matters have been in the public domain; before that most people heard first of ->-bleeped-<-s and later of transsexuals and incorrectly assumed they were the same. Medical professionals incorrectly assumed gender identity to be aligned to sexual orientation; whereas now they realize gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate subjects. We had to hide for so long but now there is greater understanding and acceptance but still somewhat of a social taboo. We are getting there!

Again I feel most of my friends (of both sexes) happened between my ages of 4-11 and I was unable to make true friends all my life and I never married as I never wished to. I feel I truly relate to so many here on Susans whether they reside in UK or US or elsewhere. I shall be publicly transitioning in 2019 at the age of 64 and now that I have accepted myself, I believe I am and will continue to gain confidence.

The main problem with the opposition? In my view it is either that they make the same mistake that the medical profession made before 2000 - they simply cannot understand the difference between Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation. Ignorance requires more education.

Yes I really appreciate your posts and I feel we have and will have plenty to share both in terms of our history and our intentions/journey.

Sending Love

Pamela xx


  •  

Faith

Dawn, you keep right on being yourself (like I have to say it). I read your thoughts and comments because they come from you and not a platitude regurgitated from somewhere else. The point of this forum is not to find like-minded, it's to see similarities in our differences. It's the differences that make us who we are. Never apologize for that.

and, as always, I probably said that wrong :P

Faith
I left the door open, only a few came through. such is my life.
Bluesky:@faithnd.bsky.social

  •  

Complete

Personally,  I believe the difference between gender identity and sexual preference is pretty obvious and has been for a pretty long  time. I don't think that is where the problem lies. The good news is that l am not bashful about my age and so l can pretty confidently assume that l am probably one of the older people around here,  not that that makes me necessarily any wiser.
I became accutely aware of "the problem" when l was about 5. Being/acting like a girl hadn't been a problem until I started school and other people started trying to modify my behavior to match my apparent sex. That "problem" never went away. I knew that., my parents knew that. I started being taken to doctors and "specialists" around age 7. The doctors had no clue. I was a research subject and my parents were not in a position to subsidize that research.  By the time l graduated college the gig was up and something needed doing. Unbeknownst to me a certain Dr. Harry Benjamin had actually started to figure things out. Other doctors around the world had also stated to study this phenomenon from a physiological pov and come to the conclusion that despite not understanding what caused it, the could treat the symtoms.
This was the school of thought that l stumbled into in 1972. Happily for me, l was deemed to be an excellent subject for a recently developed experimental treatment protocol which attempted to bring the body in line with the mind rather that trying to "re-educate" the brain to align with the body.
Then end result was "moi", a happy, productive and fully functional woman into my fifth decade of life as a woman.
After a full recovery from my srs, l restarted my life as an attractive young women. A few years after that,  I was married having left that rather difficult chapter of my life far behind me and long forgotten. Had it not been for chancing to read a newspaper article about an individual "coming out at work as transgender", (a term l had never come across), in the early 2000's, l would never have re-engaged with what l have come to recognize as little more than a political lobby.
Under the guise of "support", language is strictly policed and any politically incorrect ideas pointing out the drawbacks of life on the trans plantation are summarily and severly punished. This has been my transgendered experience.
  •  

Lisa_K

I will try to be tactful.

Please do not discount Complete's opinions and point of view because even though you may not agree or probably even understand what she is talking about, I do and it would be really nice if observations like this from trans elders could be talked about without violating the site's terms or causing a disagreement. Arguably, she might have been a little more tactful too in her approach but I understand her sentiment.

I share many of her views but a lot of you that haven't been around a long time probably don't understand how someone could have such less than shiny opinions about the "trans community". It may be because although her and I are both of trans experience, we've not been a part of the trans community, all its prescribed dogma and what almost at times seems like brainwashing so coming into this relatively recently with decades and decades of just living regular lives as everyday women outside of this realm, many things are puzzling and some are even a little disturbing. In some ways, it's as if we're looking in at all this as outsiders. It's a different perspective that may be hard to understand but I think it's worth discussion?

To clear the air about my background as a caveat but germane to this discussion, I grew up outwardly gender incongruent which pretty much means I was seen as a girl but was known as a boy. My parents took me to clueless therapists too when I was a young child. A bit later in life after a miserable time fitting into the world and despite trans youth not being a recognized thing at the time, I nevertheless was diagnosed with "primary transsexualism" and started HRT at 17 before my senior year of high school which upon graduation in 1973, I seamlessly and with little fanfare went "full time" and just blended into the woodwork working my way up in the pink collar world as just your average gal. I had SRS in 1977 when I was 22, was married when I was 30, divorced when I was 42 and pretty much all during this time up until a bit over three years ago was pretty much oblivious to even being of trans experience or having anything to do with it. Other than our special medical needs, it just wasn't a part of my life. In the real day-to-day world, it still isn't. I am not out about my medical history and have no desire to ever be.

With all the media visibility and with trans being turned into the political football it has become, it made the whole thing a little hard to ignore so I began to look for where I might have a place in all of this or even if I did and I really haven't found one except as I said, as an outsider. Being trans youth before we'd even been "discovered" as such adds to this point of view and certain attitudes I've encountered from those that aren't in the same early/late transitioning group should not be discounted as part of my perspective.

As Complete alluded, there seems to be a prescribed transgender dogma within the community that maybe you can't see if that's all you've ever known? It seems to have rules and boundaries that don't like to be violated by contrary opinion or even by those just playing devil's advocate to maybe help others gain a broader perspective or better understanding of themselves.

With my relatively recent "awakening" if you will, I have become a student of the trans phenomenon and in my several years of study and observation, it has been made clear that certain voices are not welcome in an echo chamber. That's not saying anything about this forum specifically but within the approved transgender narrative in general. If you disagree with something or your opinions go against the grain, happen to be unpopular or you ask too many questions, it's seen as nearly heretical by some who then vehemently feel the need to defend their position as upholders of the accepted transgender canon.

There seems to be a high degree of cognitive dissonance by some in the transgender community that prefer to not have their bubbles burst. I'd rather not rain on anyone's parade but it's not all unicorns and rainbows and there are some folks that aren't quite on-board with it all and these are things I think should be brought to the table in an open minded way if for no other reason than to have a better understanding of these things within ourselves.

So, this isn't really the time or place for that but my point was coming into today's trans world relatively from the cold but yet full of history, experience and different perspectives in some ways is quite jarring and may be a bit for everyone? Complete and I got over the whole trans thing early in life and have gone on to have full lives like any other woman but because we did change sex so many, many moons ago, by default our medical issues have included us in a group neither of us has ever belonged or asked to belong so when we are faced with group think we haven't been a part of, there's a natural tendency to want to call out things we might see as BS.

I understand Complete's criticism of "support".

As someone relatively new to the "transgender experience" but with a longer history being trans than most of you will ever know, it is hard to just hop on the bandwagon without being a little bit cynical or critical of certain aspects of the "trans movement".  No harm is meant in this and I have no ill will toward anyone and hope everyone finds whatever it is that makes them happy and I'm still learning plenty of things myself but that's not by sticking my fingers in my ears and going la-la-la as to not hear something that falls outside of my paradigm.

So yeah, this has been my transgendered [Sic] experience pretty much too. Trans World has its own brand of political correctness and acceptable standards but living 60 years of my life in the non-trans world, in the last three or so years I have become interested in the other side, it's become quite eye-opening to say the least.
  •  

Cindy

Topic locked for clean up.

I am getting utterly tired of people breaking TOS 5


5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which are of a threatening tone; intended solely to communicate sarcasm, contempt, or derision; are intended to belittle or ridicule a person or group; to disgust the viewer; contain obscene or pornographic materials; which are intended to titillate; or which depicts/promotes illegal acts; will not be permitted.
  •  

Cindy

I've removed two posts that contravene TOS 5, I have noted the members concerned for reference.

I shall reiterate a past warning:
If people place a post in order to just create an argument then it and they shall be dealt with.

I shall unlock the topic and I hope that correspondence will be civil and obey the Terms of Reference that you have signed to.
  •  

Devlyn

Quote from: Complete on October 13, 2018, 09:00:13 PM
...Had it not been for chancing to read a newspaper article about an individual "coming out at work as transgender", (a term l had never come across), in the early 2000's, l would never have re-engaged with what l have come to recognize as little more than a political lobby.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Truthfully, it comes across as a bit "->-bleeped-<-r than thou".

We are all authentic regardless of when and how we found our path.

Without political lobbies, we would still have "Whites only" water fountains and lunch counters. Surely you don't see equality brought about by public concensus as a problem?
  •  

Complete

For the sake of clarity l will re-post what l have written, which is a tiny segment of what l posted.
"...Had it not been for chancing to read a newspaper article about an individual "coming out at work as transgender", (a term l had never come across), in the early 2000's, l would never have re-engaged with what l have come to recognize as little more than a political lobby."

Quote from: Devlyn on October 15, 2018, 02:49:55 AM
Can you clarify what you mean by this? Truthfully, it comes across as a bit "->-bleeped-<-r than thou".

We are all authentic regardless of when and how we found our path.

Without political lobbies, we would still have "Whites only" water fountains and lunch counters. Surely you don't see equality brought about by public concensus as a problem?


Firstly, l can in no way understand how anyone can somehow misconstrue this in any way with anything  having to do with "tranier than thou". Frankly l see that particular expression a sad reflection of the kind of hierarchical pecking order that makes real support and understanding impossible.
My point was that since my recovery from SRS, l had left that entire medical chapter in my life far behind me. Remember by the early 2,000's, l was roughly 30 years post op, well into a very happy life, married to a retired aerospace engineer, and at that particular time having just disembarked from a lovely trans-Atlantic cruise.
This has nothing to do with authenticity or how or when you found yourself.
And no, l have nothing against political lobbies. What l do find distasteful however, is how certain lobbies use less than honorable means to advocate for their own partisan wants or desires at the expense of others and behaving as though the the ends justify any means.
  •  

Devlyn

Quote from: Complete on October 15, 2018, 11:27:06 AM
For the sake of clarity l will re-post what l have written, which is a tiny segment of what l posted.
"...Had it not been for chancing to read a newspaper article about an individual "coming out at work as transgender", (a term l had never come across), in the early 2000's, l would never have re-engaged with what l have come to recognize as little more than a political lobby."


Firstly, l can in no way understand how anyone can somehow misconstrue this in any way with anything  having to do with "tranier than thou". Frankly l see that particular expression a sad reflection of the kind of hierarchical pecking order that makes real support and understanding impossible.
My point was that since my recovery from SRS, l had left that entire medical chapter in my life far behind me. Remember by the early 2,000's, l was roughly 30 years post op, well into a very happy life, married to a retired aerospace engineer, and at that particular time having just disembarked from a lovely trans-Atlantic cruise.
This has nothing to do with authenticity or how or when you found yourself.
And no, l have nothing against political lobbies. What l do find distasteful however, is how certain lobbies use less than honorable means to advocate for their own partisan wants or desires at the expense of others and behaving as though the the ends justify any means.

Well, even your suporter Lisa said your response was lacking in tact, perhaps that was where the "confusion" came into play. In any event, thanks for the clarification, and letting us see your true colours.
  •  

Complete

Quote from: Devlyn on October 15, 2018, 11:58:31 AM
Well, even your suporter Lisa said your response was lacking in tact, perhaps that was where the "confusion" came into play. In any event, thanks for the clarification, and letting us see your true colours.

I am happy that Lisa and l have been given the opportunity to clarify things for you.
  •  

Karen_A

Quote from: Lisa_K on October 14, 2018, 12:45:58 PM
As Complete alluded, there seems to be a prescribed transgender dogma within the community that maybe you can't see if that's all you've ever known? It seems to have rules and boundaries that don't like to be violated by contrary opinion or even by those just playing devil's advocate to maybe help others gain a broader perspective or better understanding of themselves.

One reason (besides it being an open to the public site) I don't participate that much here as that type of thing can't really be discussed here, and I think it's important.

i found the on-line "community" back in the late 80's... sort of when the current internal TG politics was really just getting started, and from then into the early mind 90's I ran in to a good number who did transition in the 70's as well as the those with with views currently popular... Yes there were a lot of arguments, strong emotions and hurt feelings... but it helped some figure what was important to them about transitioning and what type of life they really wanted for themselves.

I can see some value in most sides of things... While i transitioned over 21 years ago (SRS over 20 years ago), I did so in my early 40's. I was not obviously effeminate and did not have a feminine body at all (or much change from HRT)... 

But wanting to be a girl does go all the way back to childhood (from preschool age Xdressing i was too young to remember that my mother told me about, to the point of sneaking out of the house x-dressed late at night in the mid/late 1960s while in grammar school - I thing it was the 6-7th grade- in a rough neighborhood )...

But I put that all behind me when I reached  high school and grew a big masculine body... I thought had put that all behind me until I got to my mid 30s...

But then what I wanted for my life , where i felt I could realistically get to, and my relationship situation, were all in conflict in different ways...

All that is why I could see some value in the various positions. I never really resolved all the conflicts and I suspect I have a life that neither you nor Complete could relate to... but emotionally I can relate to what you say of yours even though mine has been allways will always be totally different.

Emotionally a lot of the TG politics and aims don't really resonate for me and some I have negative reaction to on a 'gut' level, but I have to admit in my situation I do benefit from some of them.

- Karen
  •  

MaryT


Quote from: DawnOday on October 12, 2018, 04:05:05 PM
It's unfortunate but I am not. Transgender was not even a term until my forties.  ...

Quote from: Lisa_K on October 14, 2018, 12:45:58 PM
... we've not been a part of the trans community ...

Quote from: Karen_A on October 16, 2018, 11:16:06 PM
...
i found the on-line "community" back in the late 80's ...

I don't know enough to have an opinion ABOUT the transgender community but reading posts by trans women in the same age group but with very different encounters with the transgender community, I started to wonder about when a transgender community started to exist.

I am guessing that when Lisa transitioned in her teens, openly trans people were too rare to form a community. 

I understand that Karen transitioned at about age forty, more than twenty years ago but found an online community about thirty years ago.  Even though transitioned trans people were presumably more numerous than they were when Lisa transitioned, could such a community have even existed before the creation of the Internet?  Was the online community open or "underground"?   (I am not referring to cultures in which there are ancient traditions of recognising transgender people, e.g. India and Thailand.)

Dawn, whom I understand transitioned much more recently than either Lisa or Karen, pointed out that even the NAME of the community did not come into usage until she was in her forties.

So, I'm wondering how much the Internet, and especially Susan's Place, contributed to the EXISTENCE of a transgender community.  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could start a separate thread on the topic.





  •  

DawnOday

Thank you all for you comments and positivity. My intent is not to offend. Here is my timeline. Born in 1951. That year Christine Jorgenson became the first American surgically altered transwoman. 1975 Dr Renee Richards transitioned surgically. Here is what she experienced and I also experienced such assessments.  Richards began dressing as a woman, which at the time was considered to be a perversion, and transsexualism was classified as a form of insanity.[3] Richards named her female persona RenĂ©e, which is French for reborn.[3] This struggle with sexual identity created sexual confusion, depression, and suicidal tendencies.[6]   1981 Christine Tula Cossey having had transition surgery in 1974 was cast in "For your eyes only" It was not until watching her on The Phil Donahue show that I realized that maybe there were possibilities. I mean Donahue was dumbstruck and Christine has been a positive force ever since. Unfortunately I got sick soon after and when all was said and done I got another scare when I was told I would only survive for 5 - 10 years. That was over 25 years ago. It was not until I came to Susan's in Feb of 2016 that I even considered transition of any kind. Thanks to Dena and Hugh E who encouraged me to see the appropriate doctors. I have now been on HRT for 2 1/3 years. Obviously there have been many others that were able to get information that I never found available. other than through prayers. All I know for sure, is I no longer suffer from depression. My thoughts don't seem strange anymore. I understand why I was not satisfied with the perfect wife. I understand why I would fail at my first marriage no matter how much I loved her. I have peace of mind now that I never had before.
To those that were able to transition on your timeline I am so happy for you. I am envious. I wish I could have avoided the fear, guilt and anger. I wish I had the opportunity to advocate for our community these many years. I wish that when I first realized I was different that I could have convinced my folks to pursue some relief. I remember going to the doctors when my testes didn't drop, I remember discussing my small penis and why I seemed to be smaller than most the other boys in my junior high school gym class and why they would be commenting. I wish my prayers would have been answered.  No, I take no offense at anyone who's experience has been different. In fact I value those differences.

In Seattle, The Ingersoll Gender Center has been in existence since 1977. The group has been meeting every Wednesday for the last 41 years.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

If you have a a business or service that supports our community please submit for our Links Page.

First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



  •  

Donica

Hi Dawn! It's been awhile since we've spoken. I recall our short discussion together in my Introduction post. It would seem we have been in the same boat together all these years. I believe you were already well into your HRT journey when we first spoke. I am glad to know you are still transitioning at your own pace.

Things have certainly changed a lot over the years. I keep hope that one day transitioning will become a simple thing, more affordable, safer regardless of health conditions and accessible for those of us in need. I look forward to a long relationship with you here at Susan's Place. Keep being you girl!


Hugs,
Donica.
Rebirth 06/09/2017. HRT 08/22/2017. RLE 07/14/2018. Name and Gender change 10/19/2018. FFS 09/06/2019. GCS 05/26/2021.
  •  

DawnOday

Thanks Donica. I really appreciate your story and how you are able to find similarities.  I spent most my life thinking there were no more than a handful of people like me. You all have opened my eyes. I am so glad to know I am not alone.  I've got this incredible urge to just hug all my friends. Maybe it's just the female in me.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

If you have a a business or service that supports our community please submit for our Links Page.

First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



  •